[Deck] Death and Taxes

[leander?]

Good evening,

I've been testing D&T for some time a couple of months ago and recently picked it up again with very good results (mainly MWS though). I used the following very basic list:

11 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Flagstones of Trokair

4 Æther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cataclysm
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa’s Jitte

3 Stonecloaker
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain

Even though it worked very solid I liked the idea of splashing black for Dark Confidant a lot. Getting in some scrublands and Confidant's shouldn't be that hard, so I just cutted 6 Plains and 1 Flagstones for 4 Flooded Strands and 3 Scrublands and 3 Cataclysm (really good in control matchups, wich are about the hardest possible, but not that spectacular in an aggro-control meta wich exists over here) for the 4 Dark Confidants. With this edits I came to the following list:

5 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scrubland
2 Flagstones of Trokair

4 Æther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa’s Jitte

3 Stonecloaker
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
4 Dark Confidant
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain

(SB 3/4 Cataclysms)

(I don't suppose it's necessary to explain my choice for playing Confidants. Anyone will understand Confidant is really good and at the same time realize that you will have to pay a price for it: Weaken your manabase. I am fully aware of this cost, but for now I think it's worth it)

Obviously, taking 10 cards out and putting 11 in results in a sub-optimal 61-cards-deck. Wich should be solved. Now comes my problem: what's best to cut to get to 60 cards?
I feel like its best to take out a 3 cmc card so your average manacost will be a litte lower and Confidant will be less suicidal. So Mangara, Ring, Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker are all options to cut to 2. Even though I don't like the idea of having less Managaras the other three are options for sure.
What are your thoughts about it?

And as a whole new question: If you're already splashing black, would Vindicate be worth it? And if so, what should I cut for it? Oblivion Ring seems like a worse mono W Vindicate, so I might cut the rings for it, but you can't do Flickerwisp tricks with Vindicate..

Thanks.

Edit - A third question: What do you guys think about Kitchen Finks? He seems pretty awesome with Stonecloaker and Flickerwisp (Not only becouse of the lifegain, but also becouse of the persist counter. Not even to mention the synergy with Cataclysm).

[Finn]

Hi, Leander. Sorry for the response delay. In a W/b build, I like Tidehollow Sculler a helluvalot. It is great with Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker (you can get 2-for-1 on the discard). And Confidant is a great choice. But you should also consider Vindicate. Anyway, a lot of people are looking to a Cataclysm-free or reduction in Cataclysm build recently. Let me show you what is being bandied about.

3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Serra Avenger
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Flickerwisp
3 Stonecloaker
3 Oblivion Ring

4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory (or Rishadan Port)
11 Plains

SB options are similar to what they had been. The mana has been reconfigured to operate w/out Cataclysm. This build is better designed to fight aggro-control than its predecessor. Largely Flickerwisp is the reason we can play w/out Cataclysm. It hoses a lot of the decks we needed Catqaclysm for. Flickerwisp is awesome anyway - so much fun and so often a 2-1 on a discounted mana cost. Did I mention that Flickerwisp is teh nutz?

Finks is good, but the meta does not call for it. And it does not disrupt.

[Gui]

I don't know if I'm allowed to ask this question, but I don't want to read 11 pages to figure it out, so, here it comes: Have Enlightning tutor been considered in this deck? It seens so useful to fetch vials, jittes, oblivions and random MD artifacts/enchantments... It fells like you could abuse it a lot...
Just thoughts though...

[CaptShetz]

@ Gui Brasil, re: Enlightened Tutor

MD tutor targets:
Aether Vial
Umezawa's Jitte
Oblivion Ring
Ethersworn Canonist

Being able to turn 1 tutor for a turn 2 Canonist seems really good vs combo. But against anything else, I think it really just tutors for Oblivion Ring.

Most of the time, I feel like I don't need to tutor for enchantment/artifacts, but creatures. A better Eladamri's Call, where art thou? :P

[leander?]

@ Gui Brasil: some pages ago Urdjur suggested the following list with ET and wethered wayfarer.

I've been working on improving the Landstill and combo MU and I think I've finally found a list I'm happy with. It features two things that have been discussed before without really reaching a consencus: Wayfarer and Tutor.

LANDS (22)
12 Plains
3 Karakas
1 Dust Bowl
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Wasteland

CREATURES (21)
-1cc
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Weathered Wayfarer
-2cc
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jötun Grunt
1 Epochrasite
1 Ethersworn Canonist
-3cc
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor

SPELLS (17)
-1cc
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
-2cc
1 Runed Halo
1 Umezawa's Jitte
-3cc
1 Aura of Silence
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Oblivion Ring

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Cataclysm
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Abolish
2 Mine Excavation
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

You know how Aether Vial is what makes the Landstill MU winnable? Well, Weathered Wayfarer does pretty much the same thing. It too brings in land removal or threat under standstill while thwarting counters. Wayfarer also lets us run juicy 1-ofs like Maze of Ith to help against other MUs, and works extremely well with the single Crucible in the ETutor (for instance sac Flagstones to Dust Bowl -> fetch Mistveil Plains + repeat to draw out plains; replay horizon canopy to draw cards etc).

Epochrasite is such a great 1-of when you play 4x Vial + 4x Flickerwisp + 3x Tutor in the main. He's a tough threat to deal with - only StP works, and there's always the Vial+Flickerwisp to prevent that. Recurring the singleton Mishra (through crucible or grunt/mistveil + wayfarer) also spells trouble for control decks.

The ETutor toolbox gives you game 1 options against every deck in the field:
*Ethersworn Canonist: Fetch as soon as you realize you're playing against storm combo. Good against Eva Green, Thresh and Landstill too, to name a few (though hardly fetch worthy in these MUs).
*Runed Halo: Covers A LOT! Combo win cons (belcher, tendrils, grindstone etc), scepter/chant lock, Pro:W or shrouded dudes like Troll Ascetic, expected discard/burn - or just use it to take out a creature such as Tarmogoyf.
*Umezawa's Jitte: Crucial against burn game 1, but useful against almost anything. Don't expect this to help much games 2-3 against burn though (they almost certainly have SB artifact hate). CoP: Red however, will.
*Aura of Silence: Very good against Deed, Disk and to a lesser extent Explosives. Silver bullet game 1 against enchantress/affinity/stax. Also very useful to just remove something, like Counterbalance or Needle.
*Crucible of Worlds: Good against LD to protect Karakas, but just generally neat with Wayfarer and the land toolbox.
*Ghostly Prison: Game 1 silver bullet against Ichorid! As always, they can steal games if they get 20+ power on the board turn 1-2, but all Ichorid players know that GP/Propaganda is bad news game 1 (that's why Ray of Revelation comes in games 2-3, but then you have more hate). Of course, GP is good against almost every aggro deck - often even more useful than Cataclysm. Also a silver bullet against Empty the Warrens.
*Oblivion Ring: Not really needed against any deck, but not really bad against any deck either (except perhaps burn). Against Landstill, this and Aura of Silence are your only game 1 outs to Humility (since it thwarts Mangara). Anyway, too good not to include since you can 2-for-1 it with Flickerwisp.

The sideboard features Boseiju (!) together with Cataclysm, Abolish and Mine Excavation - all of these hate on Landstill, but of course have lots of uses in other MUs as well. I side in Mine Excavation in maybe 50% of all matches, since opponents always side in art/ench hate if they can. This also makes me prefer Crypt over Relic, since I can recur it. Wheel is a wicked card against anything with Dredge, and is good against the Modular mechanic in affinity too (it's much like a stronger SotPC that works with ETutor/Excavation).

I'm extremely happy with this deck now, even its performance against Landstill, combo and ichorid. It's all about tweaking it to your specific meta, and it will run like a well-oiled machine. Kudos to Finn and all you others who keep this archetype alive.

P.S. If you think this list is very different from the standard version, it really isn't. For example, instead of running 3x Oblivion Ring, I run
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Aura of Silence
1x Runed Halo
1x Maze of Ith

Instead of 3x Cataclysm main deck, I run these tutor targets for mass permanent control, and keep the clysms in the board:
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Aura of Silence

Instead of Stonecloaker and SotPC, I have Ghostly Prison for Ichorid hate (with more hate in the SB), and Wayfarer to give me more effective Karakas slots to compensate for Stonecloaker's bouncing etc. The added benefit of running tutors is that you get more versatility without loosing consistency. But it makes an already complex deck even harder to play since you now have two toolboxes to consider as well...

[Gui]

Right... sorry for the question then, and thanks for the answer =)

So, the deck could possibly abuse the enlightning tutor... It seens a great idea, all of that...

In adition, I would personally include razor golems to be tutored, and/or maybe one, just to be tutored, legendary artifact creature to finish like Karn (i think he's the only one actually), and as stated before, all the artifacts/enchantments that could help with diferent situations...

Then the deck would be abusing not only the tricks, that are great, but also a huge card that is tutor, bringing solutions up...
Thanks for wasting your time reading =P

[Egokaite]

hi all, i'm actually pretty interested about this deck, but i think that it is a bit slow and lacking on draw...so what about that list?

3x Isamaru
3x Icatian Javelineers
4x Serra Avenger
2x Jotun Grunt
3x Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3x Mangara of Corondor
3x Stonecloaker
3x Flickerwisp
2x Mask of memory (draw engine)
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Jitte
2x Cataclysm
4x Vial
4x Sword

4x Karakas
3x Rishadan port
3x Windswept Heath
3x Savannah
7x Plains

i'm actually splashing with green for the S.B. because i like Gaddock Teeg against some kind of cards: Tendrils, FoW, E.E, moat, dread returns etc. but it's just an idea....btw i dont think that SamuraiotpC is synergic with Flagstones of Trokair so i prefer 3 fetch....i like javelineers against lackey, Bob, Welder and in combo with Stonecloaker or Flickerwisp we have often its counter refreshed and because this way we have 6 creatures + 4 sword on first turn against an early Threat
That's my first post so i'm sorry if i did any mistakes :)

[chmoddity]

Egokaite, Gaddock Teeg is actually relatively weak from a purely anti-combo perspective. Now it does have that nice interaction with Karakas, but that is not as big a deal as you may be thinking. Ethersworn Canonist is about as strong an anti-combo bear as we can hope to ask for. And the deck really can't suport more than just those bears. The other creaures have to be bigger beaters. Also, if tyou are going green and not including Tarmogoyf - why?!?

@Mask of Memory - it's not a terrible plan, but since you have to actually hit the opponent, you may want Mother of Runes. And that is a different deck.

[LegacyDan]

Hey Finn, its LegacyDan (got banned from Salvation for retarded reasons)

I know this is a little late, but I was wondering if you wanted to hear my musings from GP: Chicago w/ D+T.

[LegacyDan]

Right... sorry for the question then, and thanks for the answer =)

So, the deck could possibly abuse the enlightning tutor... It seens a great idea, all of that...

In adition, I would personally include razor golems to be tutored, and/or maybe one, just to be tutored, legendary artifact creature to finish like Karn (i think he's the only one actually), and as stated before, all the artifacts/enchantments that could help with diferent situations...

Then the deck would be abusing not only the tricks, that are great, but also a huge card that is tutor, bringing solutions up...
Thanks for wasting your time reading =P

Hey dude, I spent some time testing an Enlightened Tutor version for Chicago and all I can really say is that you should only really play the deck if you are expecting a field of heavy combat decks or a group made largely of underdeveloped decks.

However, having a deck full of Toolbox choices is great if you are in the right shop.

[Finn]

Of course I would! Tell us all your experience please.

BTW, on a developmental front, I am probably done with Cataclysm in the main from now on. The deck in the OP is, imo, outdated. I have to completely rewrite large portions of it.

[LegacyDan]

I went 3-3 with D+T, the major disappointment I had was with Cataclysm (as I see others have found out).

1st round I went 1-2 against a very quick Zoo deck. This round went very quickly, the only reason I won one match was on the back of Flickerwisps and Stonecloakers. This helped keep his graveyard sparse and some bad blocks cost him a couple goyfs, but looking back I shoulda called judge (dudes cards were all foil with the exception of his lands, if ya get tha hint). 2-0 him

Round 2 was a weird Merfolk deck. Some excellent timing with some Diverts (sent back at my Jitte) won game one. Number 2 he just beat me out of the gate, a jitte and three lords beat me soundly. 0-2 him

3rd time around was a kid playing a Survival-Madness deck. Mangara and Flickerwisp got me the round 2-0. He did try to cheat by putting all his land under each other, to make it look like me had less open. Judge sided with me on this one, happily. 2-0 me

Round 4 was against a terrible Mono Red deck. Somehow he got game one, but Tividar and Jittes won the last two games. He tried to stall for time, but (and I HATE using threats of judge calls to get gameplay flowing) I dropped the j word when I tapped his lands via Ports and he would sit and just "think" with one card in his hand. This kid was also kinda slow, he never really grasped that my Isamaru was not worth the burn spells (I had Karakas out and ready everytime). 2-1 me

5th round was against and ELVES!!! deck w/ Prog. backup. This is one of the many times I was happy I had Aven Mindsensors mainboard. Fliers got me game one over an active Prog. Game two I won with a turn 1 Vial, turn 2 Abeyance, trun 3 vial Canonist, on his turn, with Mindsensor to wreck his tutor for his beatstick. 2-0 me

Number 6 is the one I hate the most, GUb thresh. round one was mine, but only after using every trick the deck has. Game got me PISSED: I had out a grunt and my hand was hovering over my deck while I was deciding what to hit, and he called a Judge. He claims that because my hand was over the deck that I missed the trigger. Judge told me to sac, after we exchange some words, and continue. Dang Grunt would have won me that match TO!!! GRRRR...... 3rd game he won soundly.

Afterwards I kicked myself for not taking Cataclysm out of the deck, Canonist would do much better.Honestly, I LOVE Aven Mindsensor in the deck. It looks horrible on parper, but in the tournement it served me very well. Tutors were everywhere, and Mindsensor screwed with a lot of decks.

[leander?]

The deck in the OP is, imo, outdated. I have to completely rewrite large portions of it.

I would be very thankfull if you would. I'm very interested for your opinion about the next step of the deck.

[overseer1234]

I am crrently playing this list whith good results:

Maindeck

4x Æther Vial
3x Umezawa’s Jitte

3x Flickerwisp
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3x Mangara of Corondor
4x Samurai of the Pale Curtain (just to good, rapes so much random stuff...)
4x Serra Avenger
4x Silver Knight (could be knight of meadowgrain, epochrasite,... whatever the meta needs)
3x Stonecloaker

3x Oblivion Ring (to cool with flickwhisp)
4x Swords to Plowshares

1x Eiganjo Castle (testing but random good against sligh)
3x Flagstones of Trokair (bad whith samurai, but makes the sideboard cataclysm good)
4x Karakas
10x Plains
4x Rishadan Port

Sideboard
3x Jotun Grunt (extra beatz and disruption against loam, ichorid,...)
3x Tivadar of Thorn (Goblins will die)
1x Oblivion Ring (random slot, but I use it quite a lot...)
4x Runed Halo (against thresh it shuts of half their threats, also makes sure progenitus and the like don't run over you, and also helps against combo, but i wouldn't count on that)
4x Cataclysm (against everything that overextends: beïng it lands (Controll), creatures (goblins),... you name it...)


I've chosen to totally give up the combo matchup in favor of other matchups like loam and rock like decks. But for now it's packing out just fine.

[smoky squirrel]

Wow, that looks like a good list! But i do not agree on the Eiganjo Castle. What would you save with it? Isamaru? Or Mangara? Is it worth the additional weakness vs Wasteland? Plus, to use it, you sacrifice two white sources (activation + its own mana production). But you know my opinion already.

[overseer1234]

Wow, that looks like a good list!

Because it's allmost identical to yours...
(When did you start posting here again?)

But i do not agree on the Eiganjo Castle. What would you save with it? Isamaru? Or Mangara? Is it worth the additional weakness vs Wasteland? Plus, to use it, you sacrifice two white sources (activation + its own mana production). But you know my opinion already.

We have indeed discussed this already and until I get really screwed by the castle (Either by blood moon or wasteland) I'm not cutting it. and yes protecting isamaru to block a threshed mongoose/confidant/kitchen finks/random stuf is pretty useful from time to time.

It just adds to this decks (already really large) bag of tricks.

[Finn]

Thanks for the report, LegacyDan.

I think that in the current environment of aggro-control everywhere, Cataclysm is a really weak card. I just updated the OP with a newer design.

About Aven Mindcensor, I have like that card as well. I never have the chance to give it a proper test, but it seems to be a bit weak. Was it a useful attacker for you?

[LegacyDan]

+Mindsensor has flying, works well with Jitte
+Flash, a plus for tricking others when Vial is tapped
+CMC of 3, great since vial usually sits at 3
+"taxes" the deck, which completely laughs at Sac Lands/Tutors

-Only 1 toughness, kinda a drawback but Mindsensor either dies quickly or lasts FOREVER


I found that Aven Mindsensor worked wonders at Chicago, whether if it was to mess up someone trying to fix their mana or even stopping Progenitus from hitting the field. It proved its worth to me, and seeing as the deck itself is going away from the Cataclysm days I have a feeling I will be running them for a while.

[Ceridan]

Hi Legacy Dan!

Could you please post the list you used in Chicago?

[Teumie]

In my opinion, ethersworn canonist is a bomb is this deck, at the moment i play 3 main and might even consider 4 (it is so good against most of my meta, does not hinder myself and is a 2/2 for 2 mana)
on aven mindcensor, personally, i like it a lot, i play it main 3 times. It is excellent against fetch and tutor and it flies.
plus, you do not have to bounce another creature (the only other 3 mana dude who flies requires that, which can sometimes be a pain in the ***)

i do find myself mana screwed from time to time, getting 2 white is not always that easy (4 karakas and 4 port)

anyway, dropping the cataclysm and including canonist really does wonders in my meta