[Deck] Death and Taxes

[pandaman]

What about adding a bit of card draw in with a Mask of Memory or two? The latest list on www.deckcheck.net is here, and includes 2 Mask of Memory.

I've run a Jitte + Mask + Steelshaper's Gift toolbox in White Weenie before (not D and T specifically) and getting a Mask on a Serra Avenger or a Soltari Priest (again not applicable here) really lets you churn out the cards. Because the Mask normally comes online after you have Vial in play or sufficent land in play you normally just end up drawing and tossing land in the bin, resulting in a juicy and very versatile hand!

[DrJones]

Thanks, pandaman, that list looks a whole lot better than the one I tested yesterday. I've included 2 Mask of Memory now on my build to see if they are good, but so far they don't come up often. I will have to test them a bit more.

// Lands
10 [ALA] Plains (1)
4 [LG] Karakas
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
2 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 [PLC] Stonecloaker
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp
3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist

// Spells
3 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [MR] Mask of Memory
3 [10E] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [TSP] Tivadar of Thorn
SB: 4 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 3 [NE] Seal of Cleansing

[hjalte]

Being a big fan of Mangara, I've goldfished LegacyDan's deck about five times to get an idea of it. However, the results from the test weren't good enough to convice me to play it. That's how I feel about it.

1. Fun tricks
2. No acceleration
3. No punch. Weak critters
4. I don't control the board
5. I would be dead by now
6. I'm not sure this has a chance against control
7. No card draw
8. Mangara tricks are easily stopped

Totally underwhelming. ._.

I did the exact same thing. But a week ago, I went to a 20 man tournament bringing Death and Taxes and totally slaughtered everyone. They were good players, but was caught very much off guard which was to my advantage. I lost a single round to some survival combo deck, and then split the finals, as we didn't have time to play.

I played the following pretty standard list:

--LANDS (22)
3 Wasteland
3 Rishadan port
3 Flagstones of trokair
4 Karakas
9 Plains

--GUYS (24)
4 Serra Avenger
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Flickerwisp
3 Stonecloaker
3 Jötun Grunt
3 Isamaru, hound of konda
3 Mangara of Corondor

--STUFF (14)
4 Æther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa's Jitte

--SIDEBOARD (15)
4 Orim's Chant
3 Samurai of the pale curtain
3 Cataclysm
2 Tivadar of thorn
1 Burrenton forge-tender
1 oblivion ring
1 jötun grunt

I would've played 3 forge-tenders, but I could only get one before the tournament.

Anyway, the deck treated me very well. I played against a wide variety of decks (survival combo, GW aggro deck, UGW threshold, UGWB countertop control, Goblins, Merfolk). I lost both matches against the survival combo deck. I had pulled my Aven Mindcensor from the board the evening before. They would have won me that match, singlehandedly, other than that, I lost a single match against the countertop control deck, one against the merfolk deck (t4) and won the rest.
The finals would've been against some BGW rock deck. I'm not sure exactly what it was, but it had deed's and vindicates. I would guess that's a pretty bad match-up, don't you think?

According to my minor testing before the tournament, and the games at the tournament, I would definately move one of the canonists to the side. They didn't do much in any of the matches, although it would have been nice to have them against threshold, but he always had a force or swords for it, and I couldn't save it


I thought about adding the last wasteland, and I think that would have been the correct choice instead of a flagstones. I would also never go below 3 stonecloaker. They are absolutely amazing. It was hard for me to keep my vials, they were often removed or countered, so the flash from stonecloaker was great. It's also amazing to have two stonecloakers, for infinite chumping.
The cataclysm from the side worked very well. They cleared the board against the aggrodeck, which is very nice. They also helped me quite a lot against the merfolk deck, as i cleared his land, leaving him with a single mutavault, he didn't draw another land, so i had plenty of time to beat him down.

[overseer1234]

To be perfectly honest, I must agree that D+T is not a top contender BUT it is an awesome to play (its what I use to test different playgroups/tourney scenes).

What he said...

Honestly, if I see a resurgence of top tier decks that fear a timely Cataclysm then I myself will consider running them again. That is one of the main reasons I like this decks, its flexible. Well, that and people usually consider it "just another WW deck" like Mordel pointed out.

Cataclysm is great as long as your meta that doesn't contain a lot of agro-control decks like threshold.. And even then you should consider them as a sideboard option (for anything that overextends in "anything", being it lands (landstill) creature's (goblin) or whatever (rock/enchantress/staxx)

I'm having a lot of fun playing is deck and one thing I can say is this:
The deck is NOT forgiving, and the slightest misplay/timing error might (and probably will) just cost you the game that you could have won by making better calls.

This deck really requires you to know pretty damn good what your opponent is playing in order to make the correct play's for yourself...

[LegacyDan]

I'm having a lot of fun playing is deck and one thing I can say is this:
The deck is NOT forgiving, and the slightest misplay/timing error might (and probably will) just cost you the game that you could have won by making better calls.

Ain't that a fact? Ya would figure a deck as fun as D+T would be forgiving to an unexperienced player, but it isn't. I haven't had to check my timing this much since I last played High Tide combos. lol

This deck really requires you to know pretty damn good what your opponent is playing in order to make the correct play's for yourself...

This is a problem I have seen, but with enough experience in the game itself you can usually figure out what the other player is using before your third turn (which I have found is when your choices start making the most impacts on the matches ending).

The Mask of Memory Idea seems to be an intereting way of solving the decks minor drawbacks. Its a nifty idea that does make use of D+T many flyers, they are the main reason Jitte (IMHO) is still in the deck. The only thing that worries me is the discarding part, but then again its just more food for our Grunts. Has anyone else tested them out?

[pandaman]

I might give this a go:

4 Karakas
3 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
11 Plains

4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Stonecloaker

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Mask of Memory
2 Steelshaper's Gift

board
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Glowrider
3 Mana Tithe
1 Abeyance
3 Tivadar of Thorn

With the two Steelshaper's Gifts you essentially 4 Jittes and 3 Masks in the deck. I've got 3 Wasteland and 4 Ports because I don't have 4 Wastelands and taken out 1 Flickerwisp, 1 Jotun Grunt and 1 Jitte from mainboard. In the sideboard take out a Forge-Tender and put in an extra Grunt, take out the Chant's and put in 3 Mana Tithe's and an Abeyance (again that's all I have). I really enjoy card draw in white weenie decks (I also enjoy counterspells, but that's another story) so I'd be excited if Mask of Memory worked in the list. The only problem is that you have two extra cards, the Steelshaper's Gifts, in the deck that don't do anything to disrupt the opponent, which slows down your "D+T disruption tempo" a little. Will the card draw be worth it?

[Finn]

Pandaman, I think I would cut a Canonist instead of the Flickerwisp. In fact, I would sooner cut just about anything than a Flickerwisp. That creature is such a damned good card, and my favorite part is that the more you need help, the better it is. Canonist, on the other hand is in the unfortunate 2cc slot. In the past it was True Believer, then Samurai of the Pale Curtain. The cards keep getting better, but only incrementally.

[johanessen]

Anyone tested red in this deck to include imperial recruiter?

[Unknown2]

Anyone tested red in this deck to include imperial recruiter?

no need, it just slows the deck down more than we need

[pandaman]

Pandaman, I think I would cut a Canonist instead of the Flickerwisp...

I think leaving 4 Canonists and cutting a Flickerwisp was just a knee-jerk reaction to getting beaten to a pulp by combo on the weekend:...eek:

Speaking of Samurai of the Pale Curtain, now that he's gone do you think you could bring in Flagstones of Trokair?

[CaptShetz]

Speaking of Samurai of the Pale Curtain, now that he's gone do you think you could bring in Flagstones of Trokair?

Are you running Cataclysm MD? If yes, run Flagstones. If no, don't.

It opens you up to more hate from back to basics, magus of the moon/blood moon, etc.

Plus, the occasional legendary rule problem can occur.

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

A little bit ago there was a couple comments about the black version with confidant and tidehollow sculler, what do people think of that version? Yes it opens you up to more non-basic hate, but a draw engine and more disruptive good guys, especially ones that already work well with the tricks built into the deck seems good.

[pandaman]

I've just read the whole thread, and I want to apologise for bringing the Mask of Memory thing up again, it's already been discussed about 20 pages back.

I also want to ask advice about strategy versus Aggro Loam and. As far as I understand it Aggro Loam is an aggro/control deck. It seems whether you end up being aggro or control depends a lot on your starting hand. Jotun Grunt and Stonecloaker seem to be good against Loam, with Jotun Grunt putting cards you don't want coming back out of the graveyard on the bottom of their library and Stonecloaker removing them from the game and allowing you to take back the Grunt and reset its counters.

But I need advice on what are strong sideboard cards against Loam? Samurai of the Pale Curtain? Glowrider? Cataclysm? I don't really know...

[Kuma]

SotPC, Glowrider, and Cataclysm are all weak against Aggro Loam. But really it's one of the traditional list's best matchups. They run around 11 threats and we run around 11 removal spells. We have Stonecloaker to zap Loams, Flickerwisp to reset Crushers, and up to seven protection from red creatures between the main and the boad (Silver Knight, Tivadar of Thorn).

Runed Halo, Tivadar of Thorn, Jotun Grunt, and Silver Knight are all strong options versus Aggro Loam. But it's the spot removal that carries the matchup.

[pandaman]

Thanks mate. So with a maindeck list the same as Finn's on page 1 of this thread and a sideboard like this:

3 Tivadar of Thorn
3 Burrenton Forge Tender
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Glowrider
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Jotun Grunt,

what should come out of the maindeck and what should go in?

I figure that Tivadar of Thorn, Burrenton Forge-Tender, Oblivion Ring and Jotun Grunt should come in from the board, but what the hell do I take out to fit them in? This is where I've been having a lot of problems, because the deck works so well as it is it almost seems like a crime to take things out!

[Esper3k]

I'm a newcomer to this deck and I think the deck is really cool.

I'm just curious - has anyone ever had problems with things like Anarchy? How does the deck deal with something like that?

Thanks!

[Kuma]

You handle Anarchy the same way you handle any sweeper: hold something back.

@pandaman

Give me a list and I'll tell you what I'd take out against Aggro Loam.

[pandaman]

@ kuma

Thanks mate. Here's my list. Stock standard really, except the sideboard is a bit different.

4 Karakas
3 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
11 Plains

4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Stonecloaker

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa's Jitte

board
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Jotun Grunt
3 Glowrider
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Tivadar of Thorn

The decks that are played in my meta are Goblins, Burn, Ichorid, Aggro-Loam, Geddon Stax, Elves and Reanimator, so I've tuned my sideboard to combat them. No one really plays combo, except for one deck that has Niv-Mizzit (spelling) card draw/damage combo and Counterspell on Isochron Sceptre. It's not really hard, just Wasteland the red dual land and bounce the legend with Karakas.

But Aggro Loam and Ichorid are the two main decks I don't like and don't know really what I should take out/put in...

My thoughts were:

For Aggro Loam...
+ 1 Jotun Grunt, + 1 Oblivion Ring, + 3 Burrenton Forge-Tender, + 3 Tivadar of Thorn... but then what the hell do I take out?

For Ichorid...

+ 1 Jotun Grunt, + 4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
- 4 Aether Vial, - 1 ???????????

[ebbitten]

against ichorid i would much sooner get rid of the oblivion rings or mangara before the aether vials, the vials give you a chance to surprise block a zombie and maybe remove their bridges, they also can speed of your clock substationally. Burrenton Forge tender also should come in against ichorid because of its self sac ability that lets you remove their bridges.
I would suggest for ichorid
-3 Oblivion Ring -3 Managara -2 Jitte
+1 Jotun +3 Burrenton +4 Samurai

Don't really know what to do for the aggro loam match other than bringing samurais and jotuns in and probably siding cannonists and maybe a jitte out.

[Ceridan]

The Cannonist is quite good against aggro-loam. It leaves them with the choice to play either Loam or something else, not both...