[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Koke_MTG]

I think most of you guys are over worried about the impact of the Eldrazi deck in the format. Could be a decent option with a solid list in a near future (in fact, I like it more than a classic MUD deck for example) but we should not worry yet. I do not find the relationship between the Legacy format and the last PT. Do not let the hype eat.

If the Eldrazi deck becomes a solid archetype in Legacy I think Imperial Taxes completely eats it, and the mono-white version has a decent matchup while Reality Smasher does not hit the ground. This could be the main problem but I think we normally can lock them with our mana disruption in the early game. Warping Wail and Umezawa's Jitte would be problematic points as well. I think without Reality Smasher we can race them with our flyers if they do not draw too many hate cards to put it more difficult. So I think we would still be in positive against this kind of prison decks as we do against Dragon Stompy or especially MUD: a bit of disruption, a high clock and chumpblocking their beasts with useless creatures like Mother of Runes in this case.

Yesterday I play my first round against the Eldrazi deck and crushed it racing beasts with the help of SoWaP. I did not find it too hard to beat.

But again, I think the main thing is if this deck finally fits to the format because it lose against early Blood Moons and I do not think it has a decent matchup against R/G Lands and Show and Tell decks as well.

[Mapson]

Hi guys. I don't usually post in this thread but I just wanted to let anyone know. Especially those interested in building this deck that a couple friends and I are starting a youtube page about magic and we recently posted our first deck tech video which is about Death and Taxes. Here's the link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HriXlgg7Ge8

[Marungo]

More of a general Legacy thing but what are your guys' thoughts on this: https://mindsportslive.blob.core.win...6d6129cbe5.jpg
Julian asked a bunch of great legacy players what their top 5 decks were. Death and taxes was not top 5 for the most part. Thoughts on the results as a whole?

[iatee]

I think most people would agree that Miracles is the best overall deck in legacy, ANT is the best pure combo deck. Outside of that the lines between the top decks are kinda blurry and the relative success of decks can be pretty meta-dependent. Most of the other decks in the top 10 have one or two very bad matchups that are also t1 decks (Elves for D+T, Combo for Lands, D+T for Sneak etc.) whereas Miracles only has to play 12-Post once in a blue moon, and ANT doesn't have to face MUD/prison styles decks very often either. I think that's a good place to draw a line / core reason behind their long-term success.

[redtwister]

I mean, we are an anti-meta deck, and that would mean we aren't likely ever the best deck based on Game 1 consistency and resilience to meta changes (in other words, it typically takes DnT some time to adjust because it has to learn the meta, as opposed to being powerful regardless of the competition.) Plus, how often is DnT overwhelmingly favored? It's not like it's an easy deck to play 15 rounds with over 2 days and it may be the best deck mentioned with no real deck manipulation. Overall, I'm pleased it made Top 5 for 5 players.

[Koke_MTG]

The truth is that most of tier decks have an advantage over us playing 8 or more cantrips to find threats, hate cards or whatever... So these decks have more options to find key cards or whatever they need in a particular situation playing a regular or bad matchup, hiding here their weaknesses and, as a result, being more balanced and fighting bad matchups better. On the other hand, our deck sometimes spits us because our lack of manipulation. We have to draw better than the majority of our opponents seeing less cards from our library, so statistically we would have to win less games in a long term because of the lack of answers in specific situations. For this reason and because people, as a result, prefer blue decks and play them more often than decks like D&T, our deck is a bit hidden.

But sincerely, I am pleased with D&T a bit hidden. We eat less hate cards and often we keep winning Delver decks, which are a great percent of the metagame. This is fantastic because in a big tournament you would have to face them more than once, and very few archetypes have a matchup against Delver strategies as D&T has.

[Colin]

In reading the main Eldrazi stompy forum

We tested with Death & Taxes, Miracles, and Goblins all pre-board.

Unsurprisingly, Death & Taxes is really difficult for Eldrazi to beat, though it has a better matchup than MUD or other Prison Stompy variants. The only card D&T cares about is Endbringer, which is absolutely insane. If you aren't playing four Endbringer already I would strongly consider playing four - it's insanely powerful and shores up otherwise poor fair matchups. Even after Ulamog exiled my Jitte and Serra Avenger and he attacked me, I won. You can't really do much about fliers (Endbringer can pacify or ping Flickerwisp, Warping Wail exiles Flickerwisp, Ulamog cast trigger) so an equipped Serra Avenger can just be GG.

This seemed like the common consensus in the thread. D&T does it's thing.

Sometimes we lose to the card in every deck that trumps us if we don't have the answer.

[Marungo]

In reading the main Eldrazi stompy forum



This seemed like the common consensus in the thread. D&T does it's thing.

Sometimes we lose to the card in every deck that trumps us if we don't have the answer.

Let's just look at this objectively. The lists I am seeing and playing against aren't bothering with ulamog and are just playing the generically powerful eldrazi (smasher, thought-knot, endless, mimic, etc.). All of these guys are just strictly better in terms of power than any of our creatures. They're also a lot leaner than the normal MUD decks and not wasting time with monolith or lodestone golem and just killing people. Their disruption of chalice and sphere are good vs us (particularly chalice), and as for and LD plans versus them; they have 16 sol lands for their eldrazi. We can't reliably LD them. And when it comes to our "disruption" it's mostly based around shutting down noncreature spells which they aren't wasting their time with for the most part.

I am not saying the matchup is unwinnable nor and I saying flyers are not likely a problem for them, but how do people really see this as a "good" matchup? It just doesn't make sense. It might not be atrocious but it cannot be favored

[Barook]

I'm currently working on an Eldrazi Stompy list. Vial is very vital for speed reason from what I've seen so far.

My first impression was that the match-up is somewhat even to slightly in favor of D&T. But it really depends on the list you're facing. E.g. my matches with D&T and other small creatures have caused me to adapt multiple Jittes into my Eldrazi 75 afterwards. How it changes the match-up is yet to be seen, but disruption into T3 active Jitte sounds terrifying. Endbringer can also be major pain in the ass if they run it (most don't run it because it's slow).

I wouldn't worry too much about it until the Eldrazi lists have their kinks worked out and have a more unified template.

[redtwister]

For WW...
I think the essential thing is that Eldrazi will victimize Vryn Wingmare builds, so you have to go with a more aggressive 3/4 Serra Avenger and 3/4 Mirran Crusader build or shave 2 Crusader and add Mangara of Corondors. I'm not saying they don't have answers, but if they are spending time killing Mangara, they are not developing their board, and their deck is soft to Mangara + Avenger with equipment. Phyrexian Revoker calls Jitte early and Endbringer late.

I'm considering a Ghost Quarter as a utility land and an extra Plains, rather than our other two utility lands (typically Horizon Canopy, Cavern of Souls or Mishra's Factory.)

Sideboard, I am thinking Ratchet Bomb (kills Endless One and Chalice of the Void), Oblivion Ring because they can't counter it (against DnT, they go full 4 Warping Wail and it is easier to cast), and Manriki-Gusari or, if I want to stretch my deck uncomfortably, Godsend (not kidding, though it seems unlikely.)

Games 2/3 I'm thinking
-4 Mother of Runes
-3 Thalia, Guardian of thraben
+2 Mangara of Corondor
+2 Ethersworn Canonist (keeping them from abusing their mana to cast multiple spells per turn)
+1 Ratchet Bomb
+1 Oblivion ring
+1 equipment.

[iatee]

Would Godsend come in for any other match-up in legacy? It's definitely a sweet card, but even if you have it in your opening hand, if they have a beat-face start on the play, you might not be able to live long enough to play it + equip, esp if they have a Warping Wail or something.

Isn't Meekstone just safer? I think I would rather see that in my opening hand, can't be t2 Thought-Knotted if you play it immediately, has some application vs TNN decks.

[Colin]

Let's just look at this objectively. The lists I am seeing and playing against aren't bothering with ulamog and are just playing the generically powerful eldrazi (smasher, thought-knot, endless, mimic, etc.). All of these guys are just strictly better in terms of power than any of our creatures. They're also a lot leaner than the normal MUD decks and not wasting time with monolith or lodestone golem and just killing people. Their disruption of chalice and sphere are good vs us (particularly chalice), and as for and LD plans versus them; they have 16 sol lands for their eldrazi. We can't reliably LD them. And when it comes to our "disruption" it's mostly based around shutting down noncreature spells which they aren't wasting their time with for the most part.

I am not saying the matchup is unwinnable nor and I saying flyers are not likely a problem for them, but how do people really see this as a "good" matchup? It just doesn't make sense. It might not be atrocious but it cannot be favored

You just need to play the matchup man. After playing some games against a straight up "run you over" eldrazi build I was 13-7 preboard (on the play 50% and 11-4 post board (50% on the play), it became very clear that the have some definite "trump hands" against us. Turn 1 chalice, turn 2 mimic and 4/4 endless one, turn three fatty really hurts. However, stoneforge->batterskull is pretty much all I needed to pull the games out.

I would make a couple notes to think about in this match:

1) I found land disruption to be a waste (pun intended) unless they stumble very, very badly. If you hold up on wastelanding and porting and just play creatures you will be suprised how well a linear strategy works.

2)contrary to my first note, in my playtesting killing an eye of ugin is huge. all their sol lands are good, but turn 2-3 with an eye in play usually means the eye "taps" for 4-6 mana. if they have the second copy. fine. it's better than a giant hasty trampler.

3)Batterskull basically wins you the game, the only real thing to watch for is a sandbagged thought-knot seer. Which they basically cant do, because it's one of their heavy hitters and if they're not playing big dudes, they're not winning. My opponent tried holding up TKS a few games to try and catch the equipment. The only game he won doing this he had 2 reality smashers.

4) ratchet bomb is amazing. if this deck sees a lot of play I'd suggest 2 in the board.

This match feels a lot like mono-red sneak attack but with a way better mana.

Edit: Quick note on the last bolded line. I would say that the part that makes us "favored" in this match is our options. Everything in D&T is there for just that reason, it gives us options. Eldrazi may become something different in the future, but for right now it's just so mono-directional that we can out maneuver them regularly. Both decks live off the top, D&T can just continue to layer and grind out value.

[Finn]

Thanks, Colin. You just wrote the Eldrazi matchup notes for the OP on Salvation.

[Marungo]

You just need to play the matchup man. After playing some games against a straight up "run you over" eldrazi build I was 13-7 preboard (on the play 50% and 11-4 post board (50% on the play), it became very clear that the have some definite "trump hands" against us. Turn 1 chalice, turn 2 mimic and 4/4 endless one, turn three fatty really hurts. However, stoneforge->batterskull is pretty much all I needed to pull the games out.

I would make a couple notes to think about in this match:

1) I found land disruption to be a waste (pun intended) unless they stumble very, very badly. If you hold up on wastelanding and porting and just play creatures you will be suprised how well a linear strategy works.

2)contrary to my first note, in my playtesting killing an eye of ugin is huge. all their sol lands are good, but turn 2-3 with an eye in play usually means the eye "taps" for 4-6 mana. if they have the second copy. fine. it's better than a giant hasty trampler.

3)Batterskull basically wins you the game, the only real thing to watch for is a sandbagged thought-knot seer. Which they basically cant do, because it's one of their heavy hitters and if they're not playing big dudes, they're not winning. My opponent tried holding up TKS a few games to try and catch the equipment. The only game he won doing this he had 2 reality smashers.

4) ratchet bomb is amazing. if this deck sees a lot of play I'd suggest 2 in the board.

This match feels a lot like mono-red sneak attack but with a way better mana.

Edit: Quick note on the last bolded line. I would say that the part that makes us "favored" in this match is our options. Everything in D&T is there for just that reason, it gives us options. Eldrazi may become something different in the future, but for right now it's just so mono-directional that we can out maneuver them regularly. Both decks live off the top, D&T can just continue to layer and grind out value.

Thanks for the notes. I'll definitely reevaluate the matchup. I did test against the deck with a variety of players and came to my conclusion but have to agree on the batterskull sentiment. Card is really good in the matchup. I appreciate the well thought out evaluation though. Too many times I feel like people just say "it's good" or "it's bad" and don't explain and it leads to a lot of back and forth without progress so I appreciate the thoughts on the matchup

EDIT: Just wanted to note that all my testing was with Vryn Wingmare. I definitely feel that they hurt me a lot in the main board games. Should eldrazi get good or prevalent then I recommend a more "aggressive" version with crusaders instead

[Colin]

Thanks, Colin. You just wrote the Eldrazi matchup notes for the OP on Salvation.

Awesome, it's an honor?!?

Thanks for the notes. I'll definitely reevaluate the matchup. I did test against the deck with a variety of players and came to my conclusion but have to agree on the batterskull sentiment. Card is really good in the matchup. I appreciate the well thought out evaluation though. Too many times I feel like people just say "it's good" or "it's bad" and don't explain and it leads to a lot of back and forth without progress so I appreciate the thoughts on the matchup

EDIT: Just wanted to note that all my testing was with Vryn Wingmare. I definitely feel that they hurt me a lot in the main board games. Should eldrazi get good or prevalent then I recommend a more "aggressive" version with crusaders instead

I should state that I have 1 wingmare in my 75. I have 2-3 avengers, 1 brimaz and 2 crusaders in flex, big fat 0 mangara right now

[Marungo]

I know it's been discussed over and over, but what are people thoughts on Wingmare vs more aggressive creatures? Baltimore's meta is really diverse with plenty of lands and miracles, but also a healthy amount of delver, shardless, deathblade, and a variety of combo decks. I am intrigued by a more aggressive based strategy but what is the consensus with such a diverse meta?

[Colin]

I know it's been discussed over and over, but what are people thoughts on Wingmare vs more aggressive creatures? Baltimore's meta is really diverse with plenty of lands and miracles, but also a healthy amount of delver, shardless, deathblade, and a variety of combo decks. I am intrigued by a more aggressive based strategy but what is the consensus with such a diverse meta?

With the death of omni-tell I feel like wingmare falls back into the same slot as Aven Mindsensor, spirit of the Labyrinth and MAngara. They all "tax" differently and all die to pretty much every piece of Hate. They are also almost always played as a 1 or 2 of. You basically cant be worse off with any of them, it's mostly on how YOU want to play your deck.

I like Mindsensor and SotL in a meta full of delver. They have so much manipulation that a turn 2 spirit is a must kill and AMS trades with delver and threatens fetchlands.

I like Wingmare as a 1-2 against combo heavy, or Miracles heavy meta because they want to tap out so often and you want to be casting threats turn 1-4 then porting later. it's really hard to top, snap and plow something when you're being ported and have a thalia effect.

I like mangara in those weird local store metas where everyone is playing their "local meta deck" and you never know when someone is going to cast Grave pact, doubling season and lingering souls (personally the funniest local meta deck I've seen) so you need a answer to everything.

If you look through the list: http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=319&meta=39&f=LE I'd read it as "it doesn't matter which ones you choose". So you should play what you feel most comfortable playing?

[Marungo]

With the death of omni-tell I feel like wingmare falls back into the same slot as Aven Mindsensor, spirit of the Labyrinth and MAngara. They all "tax" differently and all die to pretty much every piece of Hate. They are also almost always played as a 1 or 2 of. You basically cant be worse off with any of them, it's mostly on how YOU want to play your deck.

I like Mindsensor and SotL in a meta full of delver. They have so much manipulation that a turn 2 spirit is a must kill and AMS trades with delver and threatens fetchlands.

I like Wingmare as a 1-2 against combo heavy, or Miracles heavy meta because they want to tap out so often and you want to be casting threats turn 1-4 then porting later. it's really hard to top, snap and plow something when you're being ported and have a thalia effect.

I like mangara in those weird local store metas where everyone is playing their "local meta deck" and you never know when someone is going to cast Grave pact, doubling season and lingering souls (personally the funniest local meta deck I've seen) so you need a answer to everything.

If you look through the list: http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=319&meta=39&f=LE I'd read it as "it doesn't matter which ones you choose". So you should play what you feel most comfortable playing?

This is actually advice I give people all the time. "Play what you're comfortable with." That being said, I've played the deck for a year now. I've played the variations aside from a purely aggressive build (3 crusaders 4 avengers). I'm by no means a master or anything special but I also like playing what's optimal. I have had fun and success with more beaters and some combo hatebears and really have enjoyed playing Wingmare the past few weeks. I feel most comfortable with Wingmare, but I would like to hear opinions on what other people think is good

[Koke_MTG]

Vryn Wingmare is also really good against Delver decks, especially first games. I used to run Aven Mindcensor in flex slots before the release of Vryn Wingmare and it was good, but I think we almost always want to be proactive unless we have a Vial in play or we are playing with our Mother of Runes, so Vryn Wingmare is better than Aven Mindcensor for this gameplan because sometimes you have to keep the bird in hand waiting to play it reactively but you have to put some pressure at the same time or disrupt your opponent's gameplan with your manabase... It is similar to why I am not playing Warping Wail at the moment. The only thing I do not want about the change is the deterioration of the Elves matchup, but it is profitable because you improve many others and I am not seeing a lot of Elves actually. I played SotL in the TC era too, but I think he does little for us: neither a real tax effect nor a big fit to run. Mangara of Corondor is good to have a mainboard catch-all but his combo is really slow. For this reason I prefer keep catch-all in the sideboard and in form of Cuncil's Judgment.

The thing with the flex slots is that you can play these hatebears or some type of beater. If you choose for X/1 hatebears probably you will be better in combo matchups but you will have to change your gameplan in second and third games vs non-combo matchups, especially against BGx decks to be less weak to Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, Dread of Night... So for example if you play D&T with Vryn Wingmare, the key question is to find the right way to keep the deck winning after game 1 and find the right configuration of the list if you have to change your gameplan after game 1. A good thing is that with 8 Thalias you generally increase the percentage of G1 wins, being more consistant and playing with a really clear gameplan. This is even more evident when you play against Delver decks.

[iatee]

While I had mixed feelings about Wingmare early on, I really like it now. Thalia into Mindcensor doesn't compare to Thalia into Wingmare.

Warping Wail was again good for me against a 4c Aggro Loam deck yesterday, killed a Bob. I think it comes in vs any deck with 4 Bobs 4 DRS.