@smutko
Why eldrazi lands instead of Port?
You could still run 2 SfM easily.
@everyone
Re: the Calderón deck: I suspect 4 Flickerwisp + 2 Serra Avengers is still good 😉
I agree with the sentiment of Kirbysdl. If I had played DnT at Vegas, I wouldn't have day 2'ed. BR Reanimator 2x, Elves once, only 1 delver matchup in 15 rounds. It would have been a bad call. When I heard Calderon won with it, I just shrugged. I'm happy for him, good breaks.
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I for one, moved back toward a fairly traditional list and have maintained my always mediocre results in my local area, sometimes spiking 5 round tournaments, sometimes going 1-2 at the weekly 3 round event. Here's what I'm currently on:
Creature (26)
4x Flickerwisp
2x Mirran Crusader
3x Mother of Runes
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Recruiter of the Guard
1x Sanctum Prelate
2x Serra Avenger
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Land (23)
3x Karakas
6x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
6x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Wasteland
Artifact (7)
4x Aether Vial
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Instant (4)
4x Swords to Plowshares
Sideboard (15)
2x Containment Priest
2x Council's Judgment
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Palace Jailer
2x Path to Exile
1x Pithing Needle
2x Rest in Peace
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
Some of the thoughts on moving back toward WW:
Sword of Light and Shadow is actually pretty good now. In a post-miracles world, most of our guys tend to die rather than get placed on the bottom of the library or exile. I even brought sword in one game against Lands and it turned into a huge problem for my opponent, turning my Serra Avenger into a 5/5 flying wall that Marit Lage was never going to get through and recurring a Phyrexian Revoker + Sanctum Prelate multiple times - making my opponent fight over keeping his Mox Diamonds and Punishing Fire/Loam online instead of pushing forward any meaningful agenda.
Speaking of Serra Avenger. I originally moved back to 3x Avenger, 1x Recruiter but ended up doing a 1-for-1 swap as I think Recruiter still has a lot of flexibility in MUs where we need it. The always useful 1-card Flickerwisp Army. Finding the 1-of Prelate when he's actually useful, doing the always awesome double-vial-to-get-spirit-into-play-in-response-to-a-brainstorm, or just grabbing a Crusader I know my opponent will struggle to deal with. I think Recruiter is still worth 2x slots, even in a WW build... I would like to find room for that 3rd Avenger though...
1x Spirit in the main, 1 in the side. Brainstorm feels like its everywhere lately. I started by filling this slot with the Palace Jailer, but swapped him to the side for 1 of the 2 spirits I had there. I think this card is good right now, that's about all I have to say there.
Everything else seems pretty standard I think. As a nod to the new miracles deck, there's no reason not to run 1/2 our plains as snow-covered as far as I can tell, so I made the swap.
Then I got blown out by Belcher and couldn't find a Revoker to shut off Painter until it was too late to matter at my last weekly. Go figure, Belcher wins the night when there's more Players in a given tournament than there are copies of FoW floating around in the room.
If you want to win a GP, you need to be lucky. Just like togores didn't run into any Eldrazi in Prague, it's okay for DnT to win if it doesn't bump into terrible matchups like Elves or Belcher.
That being said, it doesn't really contribute to the debate whether you should splash or not. From my point of view there is no benefit in splashing. You might get some free wins off Magus of the Moon, but that's pretty much it. It doesn't help you against the broken stuff that can blow you out randomly a la Storm and Belcher. And I firmly believe you'll get blown out pretty hard by SneakShow's SB Blood Moons in the postboard games.
I could be mistaken though. But for my gut feeling a splash will win you some games because you freewin with Magus or you're able to kill Nemesis, Young Pyromancer and tokens with Orzhov Pontiff, but in return you'll lose games to Blood Moon and Wasteland (and for this statistical thing I see no benefit). Even if it splashes something, it doesn't fix the elemental problem that DnT is a "fair" deck.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
'You get some free wins' is not a small thing. Free wins are huge. DnT operates on super thin margins, especially against fair and midrange decks where turn 2 Thalia isn't the free win. The question is what is the real cost of these new free wins. Yes - you can lose to Blood Moon, but it doesn't actually happen that often - especially not in W/R builds. W/B is a little softer, since a Blood Moon does in fact prevent you from hard-casting some of your cards + people are more likely to actually try to Blood Moon you when you don't play red.
Splash builds are a tad softer to Wasteland, but not as much as people think. I usually play 3 Plains 5 Fetch in my splash builds, which gives you exactly as many basic land sources as the mono-white deck that won the GP. If you fetch for basics aggressively vs Wasteland decks, you can barely feel the difference between a splash build and mono-w.
The more relevant downsides in my experience are the few life points that you pay in fetchlands sometimes matters in close games + giving your opponent extra DRS fuel does too, especially in the early turns. You're also softer to Price of Progress, and that's harder to play around than Wasteland.
So your free wins aren't free. But are they expensive? No, I don't think so. Every deck-building decision is a trade-off and I think that the free wins far outvalue the small edges you lose above, especially since you can manage those things. Don't let Wasteland be good against you, don't get overly greedy with your splash requirements.
And while even splash builds are still 'fair' decks, Blood Moon is not really a 'fair' effect. Neither is Chalice, which has been the route the Europeans have been going down. These are unfair fair cards. They don't cheat a Griselbrand in play, but they tend to end the game on the spot.
I agree with everything @iatee said with regards to the splashing ideology. One problems @adan mentioned was that DnT is a "fair" deck, which is why Elves and Infect are problematic matchups, Lands is also well known deck to stomp on fair decks (we are however one of the best fair decks against Lands having an actual way to lock up Loam engine). All three of these matchups are improved with the splash (specifically Blood Moon), Infect and Elves are notoriously bad and having another axis to attack those decks on is really nice IMO, also Lands tends to be a skill intensive matchup and giving us some extra points is something I am in favor of.
The Mono W build is still playable, but I think that testing splash plans is best in a shifting meta (which I still think we are in). The important thing to remember with these splash builds and our deck as a whole is that it is a meta choice, pick which cards get the most work done in your meta and even more importantly have fun.
The red splash is looking great to me and my Plateaus are in the mail, hoping to play them soon, as always YMMV.
The "Free wins' though come at the cost of versatile cards. Cutting some number of Revoker for Magus will net you points against some decks, and lose points to others. Cutting some number of SAvenger is the same deal, and the list goes on. Same can be said for Crusader and Brimaz.
It's not like going Recruiter + Magus + Pontiff don't take up slots that net "free wins" against a bunch of other decks; they give you "free wins" against different decks. Additionally, you hand free wins to new opponents. D&T Losing to Stifle + Wasteland is a weakness that was one of it's biggest strengths.
Let's remember the old adage: "There's no such thing as a free lunch."
Honest question: against what decks are Avenger, Revoker, and Crusader as strong as the best case scenario for Magus? I agree that Pontiff's power level is more reasonable, but Magus has the ability to actually lock out a game, whereas Avenger and Crusader are mere undercosted beaters, and most competitive decks aren't locked out by a single Revoker/Needle effect.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Again and again I have to say this - the idea that splash decks are soft to Wasteland/Stifle is totally something that only exists in peoples' imaginations. It makes sense in theory, and I even might believe it if I hadn't actually played both variants a million times. The moments when you're genuinely softer to Wasteland are when you have a dual land in your opening hand and you're forced to play it early as a mana source you depend on, which is not never, but it's really not that often. Anyway, that's why playing 1 dual land can be (counter-intuitively) stronger vs Wasteland decks than playing 2.
Stifle is barely played in legacy right now, and you're playing something like 4-6 fetchlands, not 12. Against Stifle decks you just play around it when necessary, which is not that hard - you play ~18 lands that aren't soft to Stifle and you have better targets in your deck anyway.
If your opponent is playing a Delver deck and goes t1 pass, then play a land that's not a fetchland, and then proceed to beat your opponent with a deck filled w/ Magic cards that do things rather than garbage cards like Stifle.
I would also like to point out that sometimes you just end up with Basic Plains, played mediocre creatures and lose because none of the lands you drew were interactive. It definitely goes both ways when playing this deck.
Having a splash for a card like Magus of the Moon is welcomed precisely because this is one of those situations that do come up.
Does anyone have any tips on how to deal with Pox? We have recently had someone start playing pox in my meta and I can't seem to beat him. I understand vial is key and Thalia hurts him too. I am on WW.
Flagstones of Trokair could help, but it seems like a bad matchup. Lots of removal, hard to attack their Mana, hand hate in addition to small and regular pox...seems rough. Don't overextend. Flickerwisp a land in response to small/pox? No good early, of course.
What felt bad and what felt good?
Vial, Thalia, revoker, feel good. Equipment definitely won me a game but the whole SFM package feels bad. It's just rough, t1 thoughtseize, t2 smallpox/sinkhole, t3 hymn or lily. Is attacking their lands worth it?
Pox is a pretty good matchup. They can't really beat Aether Vial and we play a lot more lands than most Legacy decks so we don't just lose to a Sinkhole. Don't keep super greedy hands without Aether Vial, do keep super greedy hands with Aether Via. Mirran Crusader is TNN vs them. Post-board they tend to have a lot of stuff to bring in vs DnT so you should have at least a few ways to deal with Dread of Night, Engineered Plague etc.
I think the Stoneforge package is fine, drop Jitte but Batterskull/Sofi are both good attrition / grindy cards. SfM also lives through Dread of Night / Plague, and sometimes their post-board keeps are totally dependent on those cards.
Also, Secretly-a-Bee you can't Flicker a land in response to Smallpox, it's a sacrifice effect.
I didn't realize I included smallpox in that scenario. Technically it does work, but only if there's only 1 land on your side of the table, although, it's much better against just smallpox.
@.lx: they can blood moon on turn 1 and then be free of Karakas the rest of the game. It's better for them if they have a blue source in hand, but they can wait until turn 2 if they play fetch, petal. Then even if you turn 2 Thalia, they can fetch island, play a Sol land, pop petal for red, cast blood moon for 4, and have Island, mountain on the battlefield. Sure, you have a 10 turn clock, but they can cast 1 cantrip a turn off those two lands, and the deck is pretty consistent. I know it's considered a good matchup for DnT, but it still gets it's fair share of wins.
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Here's how: Sneak sand Show can play a turn one moon. With 3 basics, you will more often than not be unable to cast white spells.
Magus is also not actually that great in the deck. Shutting off ports and Wastelands and Caverns and Karakas' represents a real cost. The reason why I cut the red after testing it was because it can be a symmetrical effect, and I didn't find that I won more than with monowhite, and losing Avengers felt really bad against Delver.
How are people feeling about Spirit? I'm running one and it feels like it's competing for a Prelate slot, and Prelate just does more and doesn't eat it to Dread
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