I tested Judge's Familiar for a while and it wasn't great. In the fair matches, they'll play around it so you have a useless creature (at least without equipment) on the field that's too slow to clock anything. I don't know how heavily you are invested in the black splash but I'd rather play Thoughtseize against combo.Originally Posted by Sardukar
Not heavy really that's why i cant play black spell on 1st turn. Btw, familiar always greAt first drop and amazing comes from vial) can counter fast hymn or removal and it's synergy with thalia/vryn on table.
Lately I have been playing more and more against Food Chain decks. It is not a bad matchup, but I would like to know if there is a supergood card vs this deck that I havent seen before. The decks I play against play btw like 4xHymn and some Toxic Deluges in the side.
Prelate on 3, Revoker on ballista, Mom. That's been my approach.
I think it can easily be a poor matchup. I don't do well against it with this deck very often.
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I don't think it's a good match for us because they have so many ways to wipe our board. They also run Golgari Charm and Ballista so yeah.
I think the best counter is to go Magus of the Moon. You shut off so many cards in their deck - especially their board wipes - that I think it is the best proactive solution. Their mana base is not great. Deathrite shaman you can stop with Revokers, Swords to Plowshares, etc.
Good food chain players fetch basics a lot, the deck plays ~4; 2 island, 1 Swamp, 1 forest, generally. I don't think that play is as strong as you think it is.
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Most players are not aware you're running Magus so they usually fetch a dual in order to cast all their spells. But more importantly, many of their spells are dual color in different combinations (e.g baleful strix vs golgari charm vs hymn to tourarch). This is what I mean by a greedy mana base.
A recent but past teammate of mine as well as .dk here on the source always seem to make it a point to get multiple basics as fast as possible since no matter what version of DnT you play, you always have ways of attacking the mana base. Believe what you will, good pilots of the deck know that it's a grindy matchup and will always do their best to make it difficult for you to attack their mana, and that includes nullifying wasteland as a meaningful interaction, which in turn limits the Moon effect.
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Yes true most good players once they realize they're playing against DnT they will try to minimize Wasteland effects. That's actually one big reason I am deviating from the land denial plan with 4 wasteland 4 port. That's not as relevant here because FoodChain uses a ton of multicolored cards. Shutting off 1-2 colors is huge. I've seen blood moon destroy old Miracles often and that deck isn't exactly color intensive or basics-deficient.
I don't really care to discuss the blowouts of mediocre players making incorrect sideboarding choices that end up in a lucky situation, so I'll leave the conversation at that.
There were a BUNCH of mediocre miracles players. I was one every now and then.
Do as you please, my friend.
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It is not simply a matter of mediocrity but a matter of probability, drawing a particular sequence of lands and needing to play color intensive cards. I don't think this is difficult to understand...
What color intensive cards? It doesn't stop the ones that matter, such as the combo kill, and if they really need to they can ballista it away. Basically, you're saying the best card you can have is a 3 drop that has a chance to cut them off one color assuming you have the answer to Deathrite. If you aren't on the play, it can come down once they have the ability to fetch for 3 basics and now does very little.
I never said Magus is the best card here... I said it's the best counter to the boardwipes in addition to shutting off their color intensive creatures. Their deck can't afford to fetch a basic every single time without a Shaman to pull double duty. The 'best' cards here will be Revoker and Prelate on 2/3. Overall, not a good match-up at all.
Edit: Never mind, don't want to egg this on...
I want to note that fetching lots of basics is not always the way to go for your opponents. I have had this discussion a number of times.
On Grixis, if I G.Probe my D+T opponent, spot two Wastelands and a Karakas, and I am holding four lands, I am happy to play this game. I am happy to fetch duals with the expectation that I might run D+T out of lands in hand. There is no way I am fetching basics. On that same note, Ports throw the whole math of when to fetch basics into disarray. If I am on D+T, and have a hand of Ports, I want my opponent fetching basics.
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I think some of us understand this, and its a solid point in that discussion, but we were discussing specifically the BUG Food Chain matchup. Grixis tempo is definitely a different beast.
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Sure. Grixis was my example. The same ideas float to BUG and essentially all of the greedy manabases. BUG makes this relationship even more interesting and calculation-intensive because they have a touch fewer lands total and Deathrite Shaman. DRS hates Ports and loves Wasteland so choose wisely.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
I'm a little confused. They both play DRS, but one list plays 4 basics. The lowest land count I've seen in food chain is 19, the same as Grixis Delver (or are we talking pyromancer builds?), except delver plays 4 wasteland in that 19. Food chain seems a LOT less greedy than Grixis, and especially so compared to builds with Trop.
I agree it is possible to mess them up with ports if they go basics, and with wasteland if duals, but you have to have those draws and they have to make the accommodating plays for the draw to be effective.
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I've been testing both mono white DnT and the stompy Mardu DnT and my thoughts:
(1) Mirran Crusader is worse than Thalia HC in most match-ups right now. I'm making the comparison because they're both great against the 3-color Delver decks. Though they're both easy to kill, Thalia buys you a lot of time because these Delver decks depend heavily on fetchlands. I've been able to slow down opposing decks 2-4 turns. Being 3 power first strike makes her good enough to pair her against opposing Tarmogoyfs and Angler with a sword active. Crusader is the better card against Sultai and some 4 color control variants but overall, Thalia has won me more games a wider variety of match-ups.
(2) I added 1 more sol land (City of Traitor) in addition to the 4 Ancient Tomb. I've been appreciating their power that much. I find their power level is phenomenal when you're playing against Daze decks (combined with 4 Cavern, your whole deck is counter-proof many games). In addition, I added back 4 Chalice of the Void in the side for a turn 1 interaction against combo decks; ironically, I find Chalice to be better than Mother of Runes or Swords to Plowshares against some fair matches (e.g RUG Delver).
The Sol Lands were also great with the 2 Phyrexian Revoker in the main, making it playable turn 1. Have I been missing Wasteland and Port? Well even with Vial on the field, I didn't find they were relevant at least 60% of the time (rough estimate). I actually tested 3-4 Wasteland in the Mardu build but it just wasn't necessary except maybe to slow down Lands for a turn or two. However, the 2 Karakas I tested were great. I drew them just often enough to have some additional power against Reanimator and Show and Tell.
(3) Replaced Batterskull with Swords of Light and Shadow. I just wanted better cards against things like Angler and Baleful Strix. Because the deck is fueled by Sol Lands that can play a Swords by turn 3, the Swords of LaS has better synergy than Batterskull here. This does make Abrupt Decay better against us but I'll just have to see.
(4) Love the 3/3 Confidant/Mystic split. No more terrible multiples drawn and I seem them almost as often. They're usually late-game cards anyways so I appreciate the 2 extra slots for combo hate in the main. Confidant is basically a superior Palace Jailer for 2-mana and will win you many games on its own. I don't think 3 Mystic is necessary in a mono white build but the 1 extra slot could easily be a Canonist or a Revoker in the main.
Orzhov Pontiff and Magus are just insane against TNN and Delver decks. I also love Magus against Lands, which is unfavorable match-up for us (imo).
(5) Don't think 4 Swords to Plowshares is necessary in the main. Yes best removal in Legacy... but turns out it's just dead in too many match-ups. I even side it out frequently in the fair match-ups for something like Chalice of the Void and Council's Judgment. I'm playing 3 and only because I'm respecting the danger of Deathrite Shamans and creature based combo decks.
Have you got a list for your mardu list? I've been testing the list from the mtggoldfish 'This Week in Legacy' article ~1 month ago. I really like it, but found it heavy on the 3 drops. I agree with you completely on Thalia HC, found her to be much more impactful than Mirran Crusader (not to downplay MC, it still has its benefits). Can't believe I didn't think of Dark Confidants before...
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