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Thread: [Deck] Death and Taxes

  1. #9141
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    I would have identified your opponent as being on the Unmask version of Tin Fins that has been running around. It's possible they were actually some sort of budget mono black reanimator as well. I would not have expected a Pack Rat at all, and Pack Rat seems like a card that should be pretty beatable given our Revokers, StP, Flickerwisps, Crusaders... Either way, I would have focused on beating the graveyard aspect of the deck.
    Tin Fins doesn't play Animate Dead, it's definitely BR Reanimator and the Pack Rat sb plan has been around for a while.
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    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  2. #9142

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Thoughts on my current 4x Mirran Crusader build after 127 matches.

  3. #9143

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    Thoughts on my current 4x Mirran Crusader build after 127 matches.
    Can I ask how you board against Elves? I've been off DnT for about 6 months now, but when I was playing it regularly I reached a point where this match up felt 50-50 or better. I know that's not the traditional experience for most players.

    I did have a couple unique sb choices though, so maybe that made the difference (1-2x Gut Shot).

  4. #9144
    Bear Cub > Tarmogoyf

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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Hey Phil, great article. Been away for a bit and it looks like some things have swung. If we're having more trouble with removal, how about an anthem effect in one of the flex slots in the side? I wish there were a tutorable option, but anything small enough to be tutored is also small enough to die to the same 2-damage effects we're trying to disrupt anyway. Back to the article, I don't think you mentioned Serra Avengers. Are you not missing a larger air force at all, or do you simply think that Crusaders do more for us these days than Avengers?
    Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.

  5. #9145

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    @Balanced

    My thoughts on the matchup are here. If you're running a black splash with a bunch of Pontiffs or a red splash with some things like Cunning Sparkmage, your results will be much better.

    @kerbdsl

    From a previous article

    "I decided that I wanted to win the Czech Pile matchup via virtual card advantage (i.e. not by out-grinding, but by invalidating opposing resources, effectively putting myself ahead). 4 copies of Crusader and 2 Recruiters to find them meant that I would very consistently be able to stick a very difficult to remove threat that didn’t get bogged down by Baleful Strix and other small chump blockers. While my opponent would likely have a couple of answers in the 75, I had a long-term gameplan. Previously, I had used SoLaS to push through Strix as well as recoup card advantage, but that was no longer needed. Which lead into change two…"

    Gideon is about our best option as far as anthems go, unfortunately.

    While I'd like another flier or two, sacrifices have to be made somewhere. I made my choice.

  6. #9146

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    @Balanced

    My thoughts on the matchup are here.

    Id actually already looked at that, I was more curious as to how youve been boarding with your 4 crusader build specifically.

    From my experiences, winning the match several times in local metas and larger tourneys, I highly recommend going -4 Thalia -4 Aether Vial, and keeping the BS. Vial is too slow, and BS is an occasional get em (in that it can keep you alive after an early NO) when you naturally have it in hand and SFM in play. The match requires very tight play, and game 1 is generally a loss, but the matchup can be recovered in games 2 and 3 with light luck and appropriate pressure to key green men. Thats been my experience.

  7. #9147

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    @Balanced

    I almost never cut Vials. I think it's the best card in the deck, not close. I'm also sort of surprised you have 8 cards you want to bring in.

    Currently, I'd do something like -4 Thalia, +2 Containment Priest, +2 Ethersworn Canonist. I'd consider cutting two slow cards for Council's Judgment if I saw my opponent was on the turbo Progenitus plan.

  8. #9148

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    @Balanced

    I almost never cut Vials. I think it's the best card in the deck, not close. I'm also sort of surprised you have 8 cards you want to bring in.

    Currently, I'd do something like -4 Thalia, +2 Containment Priest, +2 Ethersworn Canonist. I'd consider cutting two slow cards for Council's Judgment if I saw my opponent was on the turbo Progenitus plan.
    Your councils and paths would both be better, though that is still 1-2 cards slower than the versions I played, and a second sanctum would be better still though it wasn't in your list. I actually usually cut 9 cards, bringing in two council's, 1 path, 1 gut shot, 2 canonist, 2 containment priest, and the 2nd prelate. In my lists I usually had a dead 9th card (like Mangara), but there is a justification for batterskull if you prefer it, though I like to maximize equipment and lifegain is relevant. Council's can hit null rod as well as progenitus, and can pick off utility creatures in the mid game, which is where you want the match to go. In my experience with this match you are dead 90% on game 1, favored without incredibly unlucky hands game 2, and slightly unfavored game 3 due to their ability to nut draw a turn ahead of your tempo / denial. You are dead to a turn 3 glimpse roll into non-NO hoof pretty much at all times, but those games are more far and between than the flood the board or NO ones which are winnable and easier to prevent respectively. In the first turns you want to see removal against their dorks then priority is Jitte obviously, but also getting SOFI in hand almost immediately in hand as a backup as they'll often take out jitte after you've connected once. I'm also happy with heavy removal / wasteland hands if I don't see SFM or equipment. I personally like to get BS on the board as step 3 and start gaining life to protect against hoof / trample, while trying to get as many lock pieces on board as possible with moms to protect them. I have a lot of respect for Quiron Ranger in this matchup and keep a sharp eye on it, as when I do still lose it's usually to the annoying utility of that creature and its ability to fight against resource denial.

    The meta is probably a little friendlier to double path as in your lists right now with all the Deathrite nonsense, but I've always had a soft spot for gut shot as it really makes a difference in Elves, Infect, and the mirror, as well as against pyromancer/delver and dredge (kill your own dude to eliminate bridges). Gut shotting with one land up and Thalia in play against Infect is always a surprise get 'em that they are unprepared for.
    Last edited by Balanced; 12-20-2017 at 02:07 PM.

  9. #9149

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    @Balanced

    I almost never cut Vials. I think it's the best card in the deck, not close. I'm also sort of surprised you have 8 cards you want to bring in.

    Currently, I'd do something like -4 Thalia, +2 Containment Priest, +2 Ethersworn Canonist. I'd consider cutting two slow cards for Council's Judgment if I saw my opponent was on the turbo Progenitus plan.
    Yeah the only match up I cut vials in is Nic Fit.
    Against elves i'm usually doing the above, plus cutting 3 other cards (frequently moms as you only really have to dodge some abrupt decays) to bring in 1 path & 2 judgments. extra single target removal is key

  10. #9150

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I play from both sides, more on the elf side actually... But cutting mom's is not really good actually in my opinion. Before I would cut her, but training this MU much more, and playing it from the other side, the games without mom, Rec Sage runs over DnT, mom has a big big role in this MU.

    @Balanced: The MU is not 50/50, even overboarding things, a good elves pilot vs a good DnT pilot will be in the 70/30 bar, gut shot is a bad card, that can in some fringe spaces be good here in this MU. The reason why this MU is not 50/50 is very simple, DnT can not stop the mana production elves create, so eventually elves will have a lot of mana, there is no way unless some extremely specific hate card, that with average draws the elf player won't be able to hardcast the Hoof and just win. There is no hate card that stops that, and I'm saying hardcasting taking in consideration you have Ethersworn canonist, mother of runes protecting her and lets say Grafdigger's Cage to end both the glimpse/visionary combo and the GSZ/NO kill, AND hope he doesn't have Abrupt/Rec Sage AND hope he doesn't have mana or hoof to hardcast it, that is the ideal lock scenario, and you will need Jitte to clear the board and close the game. Legacy is that, decks need to attack from some sort of angle and other decks attack from an angle that simply doesn't care what you do, elves does exactly that in this MU.

    Resuming, the MU is very winnable, but it is not good, cutting vials is not that bad actually, but what exactly does come in that are better than the Vials? Batterskull is easily much worse in this MU than the Vials. Council's Judgment is soooo bad in this MU unless you hit Progenitus (which like very few lists run now), it takes like your whole turn to hit... a 1/1 elf, path is also a C- card on the MU.

  11. #9151

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Raizen884 View Post
    @Balanced: The MU is not 50/50, even overboarding things, a good elves pilot vs a good DnT pilot will be in the 70/30 bar, gut shot is a bad card, that can in some fringe spaces be good here in this MU. The reason why this MU is not 50/50 is very simple, DnT can not stop the mana production elves create, so eventually elves will have a lot of mana, there is no way unless some extremely specific hate card, that with average draws the elf player won't be able to hardcast the Hoof and just win. There is no hate card that stops that, and I'm saying hardcasting taking in consideration you have Ethersworn canonist, mother of runes protecting her and lets say Grafdigger's Cage to end both the glimpse/visionary combo and the GSZ/NO kill, AND hope he doesn't have Abrupt/Rec Sage AND hope he doesn't have mana or hoof to hardcast it, that is the ideal lock scenario, and you will need Jitte to clear the board and close the game. Legacy is that, decks need to attack from some sort of angle and other decks attack from an angle that simply doesn't care what you do, elves does exactly that in this MU.

    Resuming, the MU is very winnable, but it is not good, cutting vials is not that bad actually, but what exactly does come in that are better than the Vials? Batterskull is easily much worse in this MU than the Vials. Council's Judgment is soooo bad in this MU unless you hit Progenitus (which like very few lists run now), it takes like your whole turn to hit... a 1/1 elf, path is also a C- card on the MU.
    I suppose we have different opinions on the MU. With tight play and my boarding strategies I have found it to be much better than other people's experiences, and that's after jamming many games. I'll leave it at that.

  12. #9152

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    The downside of vial in the elf match-up is that playing the vial makes you skip a turn you could have caged, needled, plowed or pathed, while it only really pays off as soon as you get it on 2. That turn may be critical, as elves can win turn two (not very often) or set up an almost unstoppable turn 3 (quite often). But that doesn't weigh up against the upside of making aggressive port and wastes a possibility, and also allowing you to play your removal spells later on while still adding pressure/hatebears to the board in the same turn. In the elves match-up, you'll very often be constrained on mana. Therefore, you can't board out your best solution to that problem. Vial also greatly contributes to your chances to survive the midgame when you make it that far. You may increase your chances of losing against their aggressive, powerful hands, but you also increase your chances of winning against their slower, value hands, which are the games we should aim to win as the former are mostly lost causes anyway.

    I also don't like boarding out mom, because mom + canonist is almost impossible for them to get rid of, while canonist on its own is still vulnerable to any GSZ. Thalia is by far the worst card and easiest cut. There's something to say for cutting batterskull, but in some games you just need its stabilizing effect vs aggro and its minimal mana investment off of stoneforge compared to the others (+ being less vulnerable to null rod), so I'd rather cut some low-impact beaters like Flickerwisp, Mirran Crusader or Serra Avenger. All mainly serve to race your opponent or carry equipment through symbiote and have a little extra boon attached (wisp can do relevant disruption/protection off of vial, crusader can't be decayed and is more brutal with equipment, avenger comes down earlier from vial and is better in an aggro race), but feel like the weakest and most redundant cards in the match-up.

    Council's Judgment can be included, but I think it will just be either win-more or not-enough most of the time, as you will use it mostly to kill a one mana elf. Still, the ability to immediately deal with a Nissa, Progenitus, Null Rod or Sylvan Library is not that fringe and unimportant. The question is whether you can afford to cut more cards to make room for the Judgments. Beyond thalia, you don't really have anything that is absolutely terrible in the match-up, so you will have to cut cards that still play a role in your overall strategy. And then you might be diluting your deck's strategy too much just to have extra answers that will only rarely matter.

    In my tournament record I can recall, I think I'm about 5-2 against elves in matches. Most of my wins were due to my opponent missplaying (never feel overconfident in your good match-ups!) or due to blow-out hate pieces I was playing like Thalia HC and Orzhov Pontiff. I even countered a Natural Order with a Judge's Familiar once, although, in his defense, he couldn't make the extra mana anyway and he was facing an activated jitte + port next turn.

  13. #9153

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    For the holidays, how about something a little more light? if you could put together a list of achievements for the deck, what would it include?

    This came to me yesterday because I ended up in a game against Jund where the correct line was to equip batterskull to a Mother of Runes, which is a first for me in 4 years of playing the deck.

  14. #9154
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Balanced View Post
    Can I ask how you board against Elves? I've been off DnT for about 6 months now, but when I was playing it regularly I reached a point where this match up felt 50-50 or better. I know that's not the traditional experience for most players.

    I did have a couple unique sb choices though, so maybe that made the difference (1-2x Gut Shot).
    I tested 2 Gut Shot in the board in vs a friend for a very large sample set of matches. It really didn't make a meaningful difference in the overall win %. Sometimes you have one and it buys you a turn. But Elves isn't Infect - removal doesn't win you the game on its own. Gut Shot is great vs Infect and okay in the mirror, but vs Elves it's just another card that does something. Which is fine, you want cards that do something. But just because you have some doesn't mean you win. You still need the stars to align. And I think anyone who doesn't understand this just hasn't played the match-up enough against competent players. We would all love to find that 'One Simple Trick that Elves Players HATE'. It doesn't exist.

    Also cutting Vials because they're 'too slow' is such a bizarre way of looking at things. Your natural hands are slow, Vial is fast.

  15. #9155
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    In my experience, there's one thing (and one thing only!) that can help shore up the Elves!-matchup to make it a little less abysmal than what it normally is: Splashing. To be more precise: Having access to Perish, Engineered Plague, Sudden Demise, Orzhov Pontiff, or stuff like Goblin Sharpshooter. But even then, it's an uphill battle.

  16. #9156
    Bear Cub > Tarmogoyf

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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Note that of those, only Demise for 1 is faster than our mono-white options, e.g. Holy Light is a sweeper of sorts at cmc 3. Many of those splash cards are better than what we get in white, but they're still slow. We need 2-drop answers.
    Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.

  17. #9157
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Yes, Holy Light is also a very solid option that can even go the extra mile to deal with True-Name Nemesis. However, it will also clear the board of Phyrexian Revokers, which is usually an important piece versus Elves.

  18. #9158

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by colo View Post
    Yes, Holy Light is also a very solid option that can even go the extra mile to deal with True-Name Nemesis. However, it will also clear the board of Phyrexian Revokers, which is usually an important piece versus Elves.
    More importantly, you can't recruit for holy light. Playing a pontiff or a cunning sparkmage means you have 3 copies, not just 1.

  19. #9159

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Humor me: Is Rest in Peace a reasonable sideboard card against Miracles?

  20. #9160

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    Humor me: Is Rest in Peace a reasonable sideboard card against Miracles?
    So it would hit Snapcaster Value and flipping Search for Azcanta? Am I missing anything else?

    I don't love it, because I feel like D&T is firmly the aggro deck in the matchup.

    I will say though, that Enevoldsen's Relic of Progenitus tech looks fairly useful here.

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