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Thread: [Deck] Death and Taxes

  1. #9341
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    New article! This one includes an interactive survey about mulligan decisions!
    This is very interesting man. I'm gonna share what I submitted including a short input on every question...

    A. 2
    You're pretty short on mana and do not have neither a white source nor a Vial to have a properly early game. Even you can insta-lose to an early Wasteland if you do not draw a land the first two draws.

    B. 4
    Being on the play is the key here. It's easier to resolve the Vial. If so, you could play 'ok' without an early white source and you'd have turns to draw it because of your utility lands will give you some time trying to disrupt. You have cards to grind and cards to constraint. I'd accept the risk here without doubt.

    C. 4
    You have a great hand if the game goes on the grindy mode. Removal, CA, threads... Nice against tempo as well with a solid manabase... You do not have disruption so you could lose to a very efficient start or especially against a combo deck.

    D. 4
    Keep, like the 95% of the Vial openers OTP IMO. I think you've to gamble here. The rest of the hand is ok. The opponent have to play a blue deck, have the FoW in hand plus other blue card and want to do so... If happens and I do not draw a white source the following turn I'll be fine loosing to a gamble that I think I should do.

    E. 2
    Mull. The curve is so high. D&T is a slow prison/control deck. This hand does nothing quite relevant until turn 3. There's no combo disruption and the mana denial with Port is not amazing being on the draw. I wouldn't wait to draw into something interesting and I'd mull since I need more than one single card to make this hand playable.

    F. 2
    Would keep on the play for sure. But on the draw you can eat Daze, discard spell and Chalice, as well as FoW. Would mull trying to improve what is already a 6 cards hand because of Batterskull.

    G. 4
    I don't think a 5 cards hand is gonna be better. We have a nice manabase, removal and the posibility to grind chaining Flickerwisps in mid-game. We almost insta-lose against combo but is a risk I assume easy (counting the mull as well) very often with the kind of lists we play nowadays with more capacity to grind.

    H. 4
    Still keeping this kind of hands on the play. Even more after a mull. Seems like you're gonna be a 'bye' against combo one more time but you have tools to grind and CA, but is important to stick a solid manabase with multiple SfM because they're very mana intensive, so it's important to have land in at least 2 draws of the next 4 (if we resolve Vial).

    I. 4
    It's not the best because it's quite slow, but you're facing a slow gindy deck and you ensure you'll have a powerful mid/late-game with those bombs. You've multiple of them protecting yourself from discard spells. Evaluating the hand depends a lot as well if facing a DRS start so, as usual, the best for us would be a T1 Ponder here. The hand would be amazing if we draw a SfM/RiP/Thalia the first two draws to have something to do T2.

    J. 4
    You have disruption in form of creatures and lands. If he does not reanimate a budy T1 you're gonna be quite ahead from T2. That's a frequent situation. I usually don't want to base my keep/mull decisions in this MU all in Priest/RiP. I think it would be too aggresive to do so when you have other tools, he's not gonna T1'ed you always and is a very unstable deck that sould mull pretty often.

    K. 1
    On the draw. One land. Non-basic land. No Vial (would mull it anyway even with it)...

    L. 4
    Not the best but definitely keep. Trying to gain some time disrupting him to draw into a real threat that make me change the gameplan through a winner one. This game is not gonna start until T4, so you've 4 draw steps in between.

    M. 3
    Maybe the hardest one. Knowing that is the worst matchup and I'm on the draw maybe try to be agressive finding a better opener with
    like a spot removal on it because I do not have nothing to lose here.

    N. 4
    Similar to Czech Pile one. The threats are great. You've CA. Utility lands...
    What you need here is a draw like a Vial or SfM trying to jam the game you want before start dropping bombs and/or force him some counters/removal before
    the game starts for you. Otherwise he can setup a plan for your thread chaining cantrips with no preassure in front.

    Ñ. 4
    You've key tools for the mirror and can draw into something relevant while the Vial goes up. You've removal for the very early game and you're gonna be efficient.
    Seems like you're gonna be in the control role, that's usually the one I adopt here and the most comfortable IMO.

    Thoughts guys?
    In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except DEATH & TAXES

  2. #9342
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I t64'd Worcester with a WR Daredevil-less list. I got fairly lucky d1 and fairly unlucky d2. I think the Delver builds are moving in directions that are quite bad for DnT. Lots to a ton of Liliana of the Last Hope and TNNs d2.

  3. #9343

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    so, 1 DnT player in the top32 at the open, and 2 DnT players in the top16 at the classic. not the best weekend for the deck, i guess.

    as said above, true-name nemesis steals a lot of games and we cant just always race it (especially with a wall of pyro tokens). 1-2 holy light in the sideboard might not be a bad idea at all, seeing as it gets rid of both of those problems and grixis delver being the most played deck. cuts in the SB could be 1 path/1 containment priest, imo. you will lose some points to the graveyard based MUs, though they arent that common atm.

  4. #9344

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    @Koke_mtg
    I'll write up all my thoughts later, but I don't want to tip my hand yet.

    @iatee
    My Grixis Delver percentages have been way closer to even recently than they used to be. I'm 15-11 with the RW build (December on) as compared to 9-3 with the WW build (a month or two before that). Now part of that is obviously due to the weakness of the RW deck to opposing mana denial and occasionally "getting Delvered" because of that, but a big part of it is Delver player a different post-board game against us.

  5. #9345
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I don't feel like any of the weakness I'm seeing is tied to RW being softer to mana denial. In practice the consistently relevant downside of playing RW vs them is giving their DRS a few more lands with your fetches, and there is enough upside to make up for that. I think that can be seen in the zero copies of WW in the top 32, and the only D&T deck being one with Orzhov Pontiff and a very greedy manabase. Over the course of the tournament I lost to: maindeck Abrade out of Delver, maindeck TNN a million times, Marsh Casualties via double DRS getting the dude out of Sanctum Prelate + Magus of the Moon. If you look at some of these Delver sideboards, they're just loaded with absolute haymakers postboard: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/972110#paper

    Marsh Casualties, Lili, Shatter effects, more removal. And there's still the TNNs main. It's funny, when Pile was everywhere I thought it was eminently beatable (mostly because it was never a very good deck.) But if the best deck is a TNN deck, DnT probably isn't tier 1, or maybe has to be rewired significantly. Also, when the best deck is a creature deck with Wastelands, we suffer because sideboards are trying to beat creature decks with Wastelands and don't have as many Flusterstorms etc.

    Anyway, it's not like I didn't beat some Delver in the tournament, and I definitely got unlucky (e.g. I played against a friend and he told me he saw his singleton TNN both games). But I don't think the matchup is favored, and DnT is a meta deck that needs to be favored vs tier 1 decks.

    Regardless, it seems like DRS is 100% on the chopping block in 2018, so uh maybe we're just waiting this one out instead of finding ways to squeeze in 4 copies of Orzhov Pontiff.

  6. #9346

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    Regardless, it seems like DRS is 100% on the chopping block in 2018, so uh maybe we're just waiting this one out instead of finding ways to squeeze in 4 copies of Orzhov Pontiff.
    Do you there’s anything we can do with sideboarded games in the meantime vs Delver? Just jam the greedy Pontiff with 3 Cavern and get there sometimes?

  7. #9347
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I dunno, the Pontiff plan always seems to work in theory more than practice for me. 'You know what I need to beat Delver? A third color in my deck...' doesn't seem like a great plan for some reason. Plus, they also have board states where it does actual nothing (Flipped Delver, Angler). Council's Judgment is not really what you want to be playing vs Delver, but it might have to be?

  8. #9348

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I dunno, the Pontiff plan always seems to work in theory more than practice for me. 'You know what I need to beat Delver? A third color in my deck...' doesn't seem like a great plan for some reason. Plus, they also have board states where it does actual nothing (Flipped Delver, Angler). Council's Judgment is not really what you want to be playing vs Delver, but it might have to be?
    100% agreed. I've never felt Pontiff was consistent enough unless you add in a Scrubland, and that's still just one Wasteland away from sadness. In regards to your last post, I'm having the same issue. I keep losing to TNN (usually multiple copies), Abrade, Izzet Staticaster, Marsh Casualties, Dread of Night, Lili Last Hope.... It's been rough. Like, it's almost enough to make me want to reconsider how I'm boarding for the matchup.

  9. #9349

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    @Medea

    any comments on this U/W list in 5th place?

    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...nge-2018-03-05

  10. #9350

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    100% agreed. I've never felt Pontiff was consistent enough unless you add in a Scrubland, and that's still just one Wasteland away from sadness. In regards to your last post, I'm having the same issue. I keep losing to TNN (usually multiple copies), Abrade, Izzet Staticaster, Marsh Casualties, Dread of Night, Lili Last Hope.... It's been rough. Like, it's almost enough to make me want to reconsider how I'm boarding for the matchup.
    I’ve been picking people’s brains about that on the Discord, and I think I want to keep in my creatures that cantrip. It’s turning into a matchup that feels closer to Czech Pile post-board. Maybe Council’s Judgment in the board is a necessary evil, and boarding out Magus is correct. One of the places DFD has been best for me is against Delver. It almost always has something to do when I see it.

    If we have more events like these, I don’t think DRS is long for this world.

    Did you guys hear Bob Huang say his winrate is above 80% with Grixis Delver?

  11. #9351

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I still feel pretty favored against Delver, though I do often feel like you have to think pretty hard about what you spend your removal on. I sideboard-3 Revoker -1 Prelate -1 Mirran Crusader +2 Path +1 Blessed Alliance +2 Councils Judgement.

    Overstating matchups is a classic Legacy mistake. We all do it.

  12. #9352

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by scapiander View Post
    @Medea

    any comments on this U/W list in 5th place?

    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...nge-2018-03-05
    It's interesting. I might stream a league with it at some point.

    Last night I kept Recruiters in against Delver, whereas I boarded them out in the past. The games ended up being pretty grindy, so I think I'll continue to test that. I'm also not sure where I'm falling on RiP in that matchup given how the deck has been changing. It's great against the DRS/Gurmag Angler portion of the deck, but doesn't help us win against TNN (the big problem) or against the stellar sideboard cards that wreck us.

  13. #9353

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    i searched thread but can't find answers.

    for mono white taxes, why are some lists trimming to 1-2 cavern of souls? Is 1 enough?

    Also is it good to run white fetches to thin out the deck?

  14. #9354
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by jubeininja69 View Post
    i searched thread but can't find answers.

    for mono white taxes, why are some lists trimming to 1-2 cavern of souls? Is 1 enough?

    Also is it good to run white fetches to thin out the deck?
    You don't need so many Cavern of Souls because Counterbalance is not a matter that much anymore. The most common use for it would be resolving Mother of Runes against Chalice of the Void (unimportant) or cancelling the Chancellor of Annex trigger (can be useful) or resolving a Thalia on curve against Delver Decks (can be very important).

    The Thinning of the Deck doesn't make a big difference. There a certain articles which prove mathematically that it's almost no difference. On the other Hand you have Recruiter of the Guard and Stoneforge Mystic as well, so i think that will be enough to thinout and reduce variance. On the other Hand the lifeloss can matter in some Matchups. So the benefit is really small overall.

    I think it is very important to have 10 Basic Plains in the mono White Versions because the mana base is one hidden strengths of the Deck to not to be soft to Blood Moon, Wasteland, Price of Progress and Back to Basics.

  15. #9355
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post

    Last night I kept Recruiters in against Delver, whereas I boarded them out in the past. The games ended up being pretty grindy, so I think I'll continue to test that. I'm also not sure where I'm falling on RiP in that matchup given how the deck has been changing. It's great against the DRS/Gurmag Angler portion of the deck, but doesn't help us win against TNN (the big problem) or against the stellar sideboard cards that wreck us.
    I also liked keeping the Recruiters against Grixis Delver as well. Some of the Matches get grindy and we know who probably wins if you can chain Flickerwisps again and again or get a Stoneforge with the equipment at the right moment.

    Rest in Peace has the benefits of shutting down DRS, Lavamancer and Angler completely and keeps Ancient Grudge and Cabal Therapy low, so you maybe keep one of the equipments. But I also was not willing to take out other Cards from the Deck as well, so I am not sure if we need to bring it in or not.

  16. #9356

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    This is one of the better clips from the stream tonight. The whole thing was a hoot, but this was superb.

  17. #9357

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Koke_MTG View Post
    This is very interesting man. I'm gonna share what I submitted including a short input on every question...

    A. 2
    You're pretty short on mana and do not have neither a white source nor a Vial to have a properly early game. Even you can insta-lose to an early Wasteland if you do not draw a land the first two draws.

    B. 4
    Being on the play is the key here. It's easier to resolve the Vial. If so, you could play 'ok' without an early white source and you'd have turns to draw it because of your utility lands will give you some time trying to disrupt. You have cards to grind and cards to constraint. I'd accept the risk here without doubt.

    C. 4
    You have a great hand if the game goes on the grindy mode. Removal, CA, threads... Nice against tempo as well with a solid manabase... You do not have disruption so you could lose to a very efficient start or especially against a combo deck.

    D. 4
    Keep, like the 95% of the Vial openers OTP IMO. I think you've to gamble here. The rest of the hand is ok. The opponent have to play a blue deck, have the FoW in hand plus other blue card and want to do so... If happens and I do not draw a white source the following turn I'll be fine loosing to a gamble that I think I should do.

    E. 2
    Mull. The curve is so high. D&T is a slow prison/control deck. This hand does nothing quite relevant until turn 3. There's no combo disruption and the mana denial with Port is not amazing being on the draw. I wouldn't wait to draw into something interesting and I'd mull since I need more than one single card to make this hand playable.

    F. 2
    Would keep on the play for sure. But on the draw you can eat Daze, discard spell and Chalice, as well as FoW. Would mull trying to improve what is already a 6 cards hand because of Batterskull.

    G. 4
    I don't think a 5 cards hand is gonna be better. We have a nice manabase, removal and the posibility to grind chaining Flickerwisps in mid-game. We almost insta-lose against combo but is a risk I assume easy (counting the mull as well) very often with the kind of lists we play nowadays with more capacity to grind.

    H. 4
    Still keeping this kind of hands on the play. Even more after a mull. Seems like you're gonna be a 'bye' against combo one more time but you have tools to grind and CA, but is important to stick a solid manabase with multiple SfM because they're very mana intensive, so it's important to have land in at least 2 draws of the next 4 (if we resolve Vial).

    I. 4
    It's not the best because it's quite slow, but you're facing a slow gindy deck and you ensure you'll have a powerful mid/late-game with those bombs. You've multiple of them protecting yourself from discard spells. Evaluating the hand depends a lot as well if facing a DRS start so, as usual, the best for us would be a T1 Ponder here. The hand would be amazing if we draw a SfM/RiP/Thalia the first two draws to have something to do T2.

    J. 4
    You have disruption in form of creatures and lands. If he does not reanimate a budy T1 you're gonna be quite ahead from T2. That's a frequent situation. I usually don't want to base my keep/mull decisions in this MU all in Priest/RiP. I think it would be too aggresive to do so when you have other tools, he's not gonna T1'ed you always and is a very unstable deck that sould mull pretty often.

    K. 1
    On the draw. One land. Non-basic land. No Vial (would mull it anyway even with it)...

    L. 4
    Not the best but definitely keep. Trying to gain some time disrupting him to draw into a real threat that make me change the gameplan through a winner one. This game is not gonna start until T4, so you've 4 draw steps in between.

    M. 3
    Maybe the hardest one. Knowing that is the worst matchup and I'm on the draw maybe try to be agressive finding a better opener with
    like a spot removal on it because I do not have nothing to lose here.

    N. 4
    Similar to Czech Pile one. The threats are great. You've CA. Utility lands...
    What you need here is a draw like a Vial or SfM trying to jam the game you want before start dropping bombs and/or force him some counters/removal before
    the game starts for you. Otherwise he can setup a plan for your thread chaining cantrips with no preassure in front.

    Ñ. 4
    You've key tools for the mirror and can draw into something relevant while the Vial goes up. You've removal for the very early game and you're gonna be efficient.
    Seems like you're gonna be in the control role, that's usually the one I adopt here and the most comfortable IMO.

    Thoughts guys?
    I'll share my thoughts as well. I've only recently picked up the deck online and do not have nearly the reps with it as others, but here is how I answered...

    A. 2
    I think not having a 'guaranteed' white source makes this one questionable. You are very susceptible to Wasteland and SFM would be the key to this being a strong hand.

    B. 3
    Wasteland or a Turn 0 Force are your only real concerns with this hand. If the Vial sticks, you are in good shape. If not, you are in trouble.

    C. 4
    This is a solid hand.

    D. 1
    I pitch this. Again, if Vial sticks, you might be alright, but if it doesn't, you get blown out. There are a lot of 6-card hands that are better than this.

    E. 2-3
    I would keep this in a league on MTGO, but probably not in a Challenge or at a Tournament. It's slow, but has the potential to turn into a blowout if the removal or Crusader is relevant.

    F. 3
    I would gamble on this one. Batterskull would be way better as a Swords given the rest of the hand, but the Plains gives this hand more options than Hand D.

    G. 3
    I'm not sure I want to drop to 5, but this is going to be a slow hand with narrow lines of play.

    H. 3
    Still not happy with this. If we Scry a Plains, this hand is awesome. If we Scry into no lands, we could get blownout. Having a Vial and a way to play it makes it better than going to 5, though.

    I. 4
    I'd gamble on this. The hand is slow and susceptible to hand disruption, but we are up a game. I'd make him have the answers. If he doesn't this hand has what it needs to win.

    J. 5
    I'd go all in on this. You'll lose to the nuts, but when wouldn't you?

    K. 1
    Trap hand. Looks great but without the second land, we may never resolve a spell.

    L. 3
    I don't like keeping a 5-land hand in general, but disrupting lands is an effective strategy in this match-up. If they miss a land drop or board development early, this is a blowout for us once Thalia lands.

    M. 4
    I think this hand is a little slow and mana intensive, but it has the tools to disrupt them long enough to establish a game plan. A Sword-wielding Priest is just a flavorful image to win with, too.

    N. 3
    I think this is too slow, but the Recruiters provide us the tools to get what we need, so I'd probably take a shot and try to grind.

    O. 4
    There are a couple of lines of play and I'd be comfortable taking the control route.


    I should say that I normally play Stax or Armageddon Stax, so I'm pretty comfortable going to six and might be a little more aggressive with my mulligan decisions because of it.

    Love the discussion!

  18. #9358
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I would keep 100% of the hands in that article. I almost never don't keep 1 land Vial hands. No fear.

  19. #9359

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Dumb things in (grixis) delver decks like true-name, null rod, jitte, needle, dread of night, liliana... are the reason why I've been boarding in council's judgment against them for a while now. The only downside of the card before was that it was weak to their countermagic, but they tend to board those out now for their control-ish cards. And being a piece of removal makes it never truly unwanted against an aggro deck. This often comes at the cost of rest in peace, but that card's rather dubious against grixis anyway. It can really wreck them, but often you'll find a lack of immediate impact on the board and poor value late game that make you want to keep it in the side.

    Quote Originally Posted by EronRelentless View Post
    You don't need so many Cavern of Souls because Counterbalance is not a matter that much anymore. The most common use for it would be resolving Mother of Runes against Chalice of the Void (unimportant) or cancelling the Chancellor of Annex trigger (can be useful) or resolving a Thalia on curve against Delver Decks (can be very important).
    Resolving a mother against chalice is rarely relevant, as the scariest chalice decks for us are things like eldrazi or steel stompy. The most common use of cavern is to resolve key cards against delver, miracles and combo (sneaky show, infect). It's also obviously good when splashing because it facilitates the splash and the ability to resolve the high-impact cards you're splashing for through countermagic.

    Counterbalance was pretty subpar against d&t pre-ban, due to the risk of vial, the high fraction of 3-drops, the low immediate board impact, the ability to revoke half of the lock and, indeed, the presence of cavern; yet the main importance of cavern lied in the fow's and counterspells they played, because the card advantage engines they ran ensured they'd get a good stock of those. Cavern/vial + karakas + legend was a very good foil to that (and still is). If only Leovold had been BGW we'd all be playing vial maverick today.

    I think it is very important to have 10 Basic Plains in the mono White Versions because the mana base is one hidden strengths of the Deck to not to be soft to Blood Moon, Wasteland, Price of Progress and Back to Basics.
    The big problem with plains in d&t is that the card has such grave diminishing returns. You want at least 1, preferably 2, and only very rarely more. Reducing their count exposes you to nonbasic hate, but you have to keep in mind that a lot of nonbasic hate cards tend to be sideboard material that is rather dubious in power level for siding in against us, not to mention often a double-edged sword. If they're played in the main, the opponent has to make the decision of whether they're worth keeping in, as we have a significant chance of playing around them, making them ill-affordable dead weight. This is particularly problematic if you're on mono white and play 7 or more basics. No good players is going to keep or side in moon, basics or price knowing that.

  20. #9360
    MTGO Name: Adelorenzi
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Hey guys.

    I was looking through the dominaria spoiler and this card caught my attention:

    Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
    1U
    Legendary Creature — Human Rogue
    1/3
    Creatures you control with power or toughness 1 or less can't be blocked.

    Unblockable Thalia, Flickerwisp, Phyrexian Revoker. He does push you into blue, but he is a legend so there is possibility for karakas shenanigans. You can also remove counters from a Jitte after blockers declared so that's kinda cool.

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