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Thread: [Deck] Death and Taxes

  1. #9921

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    In-regards to sideboard. Full disclosure- I hate graveyard recursion. As much as Phil G hates Merfolk.

    I currently have 3 RiP in my SB, but with Remorseful Cleric being a thing now... I am considering running 2 maindeck, and cutting 1 RiP in the SB. The trimming would allow for a Prelate to come back in to the fold for me.


    Has anyone considered this sort of SB changes due to the Cleric?

  2. #9922

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Mom is not as Important as it seems in this MU. Miracles is mostly playing "only" 4 swords and some number of Snappy as singletarget removal. The "problem" with Mom in this MU is that your automatically playing into their sweepers (Terminus, Verdict and sometimes even EE). I see this MU as playing a threat and Miracles has to handle it. Mom itself is not a threat at all against Miracles and just a 2 for 1 Terminus can be back breaking for the DnT pilot. Its not so super important to develop a super fast clock or board against Miracles as it is in other MU's. A turn 3 Thalia with Karakas backup is often fine, not impressive, but fine! With the inclusion of Brightling we even got more threats which are hard to handle and we are getting even better in the late game. It's all about the value grind and Mom is not getting you much of it imo. Maybe it's ok to have like 2 Mom's after game 1 but im sure that even a Canonist on turn 2 is better then a turn 1 unanswered Mom. All of our "big" threats out of the board like Gideon/Cataclysm/more Equipment are better then Mom too. Im realy not missing her in this MU.

  3. #9923
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I will often side out a Mom, because she's pretty bad in multiples, but sometimes you just have to put one out there as Terminus bait. You're either gonna get two-for-one'd with Terminus, or two-for-one'd with Snapcaster, so we're basically picking our poison here. Also - if you always play the one creature at a time game and don't have a Vial, you'll lose to a resolved Jace on the spot - that's one of the biggest advantages of having a Mom hanging around. I'd rather get blown out by Terminus and have to rebuild than have to fight my way out of an active Jace.

    The other relevant factor is how much do you have to bring in vs take out with the deck you're playing - vs a non-Mentor Miracles deck you're gonna have lots of free space because you can drop all your STPs and Jitte, most people aren't gonna have more than 5 relevant cards to bring in anyway and Mom is probably better than your 6th sideboard card. If space is tighter (e.g. you saw two Mentors game one and absolutely need to keep a lot of STPs) then she's a good fringe cut. Also if you're playing more than one Prelate, she's better than if you're not.

  4. #9924
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    DarthVicious's Avatar
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by ParisFlorian View Post
    True. Overcommitting threats is only an option with Prelate on 6 and a Mom to protect it.
    This is where I set my Prelates, but don't forget about Supreme Verdict. Not all of them run it though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Have we had a proper discussion about Stalking Leonin? It looks like a powerful card in a control deck with Flickerwisps. I can see savvy opponents try to get weasally with the mechanic though.
    I tried finding a good Pauly Shore video clip... then realized the irony.

    Quote Originally Posted by colo View Post
    A "proper" discussion: I don't think so, but the card is obviously strong, and has been mentioned a few times. I think Stalking Leonin would really be able to shine in a "Big D&T"-style list with Restoration Angel to top the curve. DRS being gone implies that more decks will have to win via combat, too, so its ability has become stronger due to the B&R update. Now if only it could handle True-Name Nemesis :/
    My plan is flying over it, unless I get one of the anthems, then I can send in fearless 4/4s.

  5. #9925

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    3 DnT lists in the top 32 of the MTGO challenge. Only new cars is a Remorseful Cleric, not a single Brightling to be seen. Card will probably turn out to be a flash in the pan. Notably, everyone was still on 2 Revokers and they lost to SneakShow in the semis, which was formerly an excellent matchup.

  6. #9926
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Hey guys.
    Yesterday I played a small 14 Player tournament with this sweet List and went 4-0:

    //Lands
    1 Horizon Canopy
    3 Karakas
    11 Plains
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Wasteland

    //Spells
    4 Aether Vial
    1 Batterskull
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Umezawa's Jitte

    //Creatures
    3 Flickerwisp
    4 Judge's Familiar
    1 Mirran Crusader
    4 Mother of Runes
    1 Palace Jailer
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    2 Recruiter of the Guard
    1 Sanctum Prelate
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

    //Sideboard
    SB: 2 Path to Exile
    SB: 2 Containment Priest
    SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
    SB: 2 Rest in Peace
    SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
    SB: 2 Council's Judgment
    SB: 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
    SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

    For the first tournaments I wanted to be prepared to beat the generic Combo Decks like Storm, Sneak & Show and Reanimator so I chose to play 4 Judge's Familiar, which was surprisingly good in the Mirror Match as well as it's a cheap Creature which flies and nicely carrying a Jitte.
    My Matchup were UW Stoneblade (2-1), Czech Pile (2-0), Infect (2-1) and the Mirror (2-0) in the finals. If you would like to see me playing, you can watch the Game 3 and 4 (the first one is in german Language and the latter one in english because of my opponent) here:

    Game 3: https://youtu.be/iWajCdtGZgk
    Game 4: https://youtu.be/d7MC7_O3cBM

  7. #9927

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by HammerAndSickled View Post
    3 DnT lists in the top 32 of the MTGO challenge. Only new cars is a Remorseful Cleric, not a single Brightling to be seen. Card will probably turn out to be a flash in the pan. Notably, everyone was still on 2 Revokers and they lost to SneakShow in the semis, which was formerly an excellent matchup.
    I think you aren't seeing Brightling on MTGO because they have been really hard to find. I don't have a source, but I heard they were only being opened in chests and possibly at a lower rate than intended. It's way too soon to be calling the card a flash in the pan. The card isn't seeing proper circulation and the DRS ban is barely a week old.

    Against Sneak and Show, I think Omniscience is the card that is beating us, not that lack of Revoker on Sneak Attack. None of the lists were running any type of enchantment hate out of the board.

  8. #9928

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    The winning list didn't play any copies of Omniscience in their 75 though.

  9. #9929

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Can confirm SnS is still a good matchup.

  10. #9930

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayiluss View Post
    The winning list didn't play any copies of Omniscience in their 75 though.
    You're right, I was looking at the second place list. It's possible the Sneak and Show player just had good beats because we do lose our good match ups sometimes, but maybe upping Revoker is correct if Sneak and Show is gaining in popularity.

  11. #9931

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Driemer84 View Post
    You're right, I was looking at the second place list. It's possible the Sneak and Show player just had good beats because we do lose our good match ups sometimes, but maybe upping Revoker is correct if Sneak and Show is gaining in popularity.
    I agree that adding more Revokers is correct if Sneak and Show is going to see more play but I'm not an expert.

  12. #9932

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by mdu2boy View Post
    In-regards to sideboard. Full disclosure- I hate graveyard recursion. As much as Phil G hates Merfolk.

    I currently have 3 RiP in my SB, but with Remorseful Cleric being a thing now... I am considering running 2 maindeck, and cutting 1 RiP in the SB. The trimming would allow for a Prelate to come back in to the fold for me.


    Has anyone considered this sort of SB changes due to the Cleric?
    It's still a little rough around the edges, but I'm thinking about something like this:

    Sideboard
    2 Rest in Peace
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Path to Exile
    2 Council’s Judgment
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Leonin Relic-Warder
    1 Sanctum Prelate
    1 Recruiter of the Guard
    1 Brightling
    1 Sword of War and Peace

    Quote Originally Posted by HammerAndSickled View Post
    3 DnT lists in the top 32 of the MTGO challenge. Only new cars is a Remorseful Cleric, not a single Brightling to be seen. Card will probably turn out to be a flash in the pan. Notably, everyone was still on 2 Revokers and they lost to SneakShow in the semis, which was formerly an excellent matchup.
    Brightling was basically impossible to find at the time of the Challenge. That's the reason why it's not there. Brightling is insane and is taking over games left and right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    Can confirm SnS is still a good matchup.
    Sneak and Show is pretty unfavorable now. I've got lots of data to back that one up.

  13. #9933

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    It's still a little rough around the edges, but I'm thinking about something like this:

    Sideboard
    2 Rest in Peace
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Path to Exile
    2 Council’s Judgment
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Leonin Relic-Warder
    1 Sanctum Prelate
    1 Recruiter of the Guard
    1 Brightling
    1 Sword of War and Peace



    Brightling was basically impossible to find at the time of the Challenge. That's the reason why it's not there. Brightling is insane and is taking over games left and right.



    Sneak and Show is pretty unfavorable now. I've got lots of data to back that one up.

    What has changed to make Sneak and Show an unfavorable matchup? Their decklist seems to be the same. Is it due to the changes in ours?

  14. #9934

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by zhandro View Post
    What has changed to make Sneak and Show an unfavorable matchup? Their decklist seems to be the same. Is it due to the changes in ours?
    They've almost universally adopted Omniscience in the maindeck.

  15. #9935

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by HammerAndSickled View Post
    3 DnT lists in the top 32 of the MTGO challenge. Only new cars is a Remorseful Cleric, not a single Brightling to be seen. Card will probably turn out to be a flash in the pan. Notably, everyone was still on 2 Revokers and they lost to SneakShow in the semis, which was formerly an excellent matchup.
    They didn't have Brightling because it's been all but unavailable due to lack of supply, and haven't playtested it in paper enough to buy in. Card is absolutely a D&T staple going forward.

    Sneak and Show has turned turned into a very bad matchup, due to Omniscience largely being present in S&S builds, and D&T having no real answer for it maindeck or sideboard. Cards like Flickerwisp, Canonist, and Leonin Relic-Warder can slow it down, but the guessing game it creates in addition to S&S' other options have made the matchup quite bad on D&T's side. It helps them get around things like Containment Priest and Karakas too.

  16. #9936

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Also, what are you all siding in for Miracles now? That deck is bound to see some increased action now.
    It depends on my board configuration. In no particular order: Cataclysm, Gideon AoZ, Elspeth KE, Council's Judgment, Sanctum Prelate, Brightling, Leonin Relic-Warder, Pithing Needle, Sword of War and Peace, Recruiter of the Guard will all come in if available, and sometimes Surgical Extraction or Ethersworn Canonist (though less lately).

    To make room, I cut Mother of Runes first, next a few copies of StP, and finally an inefficient beater, Jitte, or Batterskull.

    Quote Originally Posted by mdu2boy View Post
    In-regards to sideboard. Full disclosure- I hate graveyard recursion. As much as Phil G hates Merfolk.

    I currently have 3 RiP in my SB, but with Remorseful Cleric being a thing now... I am considering running 2 maindeck, and cutting 1 RiP in the SB. The trimming would allow for a Prelate to come back in to the fold for me.


    Has anyone considered this sort of SB changes due to the Cleric?
    Before the change, I ran 3 RiP and 1 Containment Priest in my SB. Because everyone expects an uptick in graveyard-based decks, I have 2 MB Cleric, plus 2 SB RiP and 2 SB Surgical Extraction. If I discover there are not enough graveyard-based decks to justify all that SB hate, I will cut Extractions first.

    Quote Originally Posted by zhandro View Post
    What has changed to make Sneak and Show an unfavorable matchup? Their decklist seems to be the same. Is it due to the changes in ours?
    What changed was the addition of Omniscience on their side, which is far harder to beat. Before, a resolved Show and Tell was often beatable by Karakas, Palace Jailer, or the like; while a resolved Sneak Attack was beatable with Revoker. But a Show and Tell that brings in Omniscience can almost always win regardless of your board state. You get one chance to guess and bring in the right card, and even that's no guarantee (eg: they can kill you with an LRW trigger on the stack). This also reduced the utility of cards like Revoker and Containment Priest, which were not reliable enough, and were being reduced in number since they didn't shine elsewhere. In other words: the main damage was Omniscience, but giving up fighting the matchup made it slightly worse than it was before.

    The upshot is that you have to prevent Show and Tell from resolving at all instead of beating the revealed card, and that is hard to do.

  17. #9937

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    It's still a little rough around the edges, but I'm thinking about something like this:

    Sideboard
    2 Rest in Peace
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Path to Exile
    2 Council’s Judgment
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Leonin Relic-Warder
    1 Sanctum Prelate
    1 Recruiter of the Guard
    1 Brightling
    1 Sword of War and Peace



    Brightling was basically impossible to find at the time of the Challenge. That's the reason why it's not there. Brightling is insane and is taking over games left and right.



    Sneak and Show is pretty unfavorable now. I've got lots of data to back that one up.
    Really? Maybe it's who I play against. I've not had issues. Did other lists change? Is the data posted on your website somewhere? Did the list change and I miss it?

    Edit: Saw Moctzal's post. Omniscience. Just checked out mtgtop8, some lists even play 3 and intuition. Crazy.

  18. #9938

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I disagree with literally everything said here. SNS isn’t that bad. Literally got done a 30 game play test session vs Omni sneak and went roughly 50/50. Also brightling “a staple” is just wrong. Flat out. No creature that can only attack and block should ever be a staple in our deck. You wanna say the card is a good hoser vs fair decks? Cool. Great tech vs miracles? Sure. A staple that all list shall adapt? No. You can’t even tutor for the card.

  19. #9939

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    Brightling was basically impossible to find at the time of the Challenge. That's the reason why it's not there. Brightling is insane and is taking over games left and right.
    I know it's kinda your thing to hype cards to create content, but let's be realistic here. The card was made available last week and the online price started out around $6 from what I can see before being bought out repeatedly. That means plenty of people have copies from that initial weekend and given how the card is basically ONLY appealing to DnT, I expect most of them found their way into the wild before the spikes drove the card over $30. I personally know people who bought the card online to try it last week.

    Second, "insane" is a stretch. Could the card be good? Sure. Is it a strong contender for the "beater" slot, sure. Is it better than Crusader? Maybe. But at the end of the day it's just a dorky card that attacks and blocks. Especially in a field that looks to be heavier on combo then ever, 3 drops that do nothing to disrupt the opponent and only provide a clock can't be considered "insane." This deck would not exist if all the cards were Brightlings. The deck thrives on disruptive elements that also beat down, and if all you're looking for is beatdowns there's plenty of roughly equivalent options. I'll even go so far as to say that Remorseful Cleric will have more of an impact long-term than this card just because it DOES something in the matchups that aren't all "herp derp attack with my dudes."

    But hey, all I can say is at the shop I'll be happy to sell people Brightlings for $17 apiece until they tank.

  20. #9940

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I do remember a time where DnT was nigh unplayable on mtgo because Ports were insanely difficult to come by for a few reasons.

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