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Thread: [Deck] Death and Taxes

  1. #10081

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by AsmodeusDM View Post
    Don't forget CJudge and RelicWarder take care of DoN too; and we already have them in our board... Wrapter's 3 in sideboard is a little worrisome but with the standard 2 I still feel pretty safe making no changes.
    I don't. That list not only had 3 DoN, but also 2 LtLH. I think that rises to the level of us considering some type of counter-counter strategy.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatJiJi View Post
    Yeah seeing 3 dreads in play at once was making me thik of a sweeper effect, racket bomb being more feasible. UB shadow and grixis delver were the best performing decks at the PT, likely to shift locals metas. And dnt may have painted a targwt on it's back with 2 in top 4, something to consider that more dedicated hate may be seen moving forward.
    I do think Ratchet Bomb is a far more reasonable choice than EE, since it has the potential to hit anything from 0 to 3 in the reasonable course of a game.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeckBird View Post
    I've always been pretty high on Blessed Alliance and if UBx Shadow is the real deal, then people should consider playing at least one in their sideboard. Good for all reasons it was good before (destroys an attacking TNN, Dark Depths, equipped creature, etc.), but now you can target your opponent to gain 4 life and shrink/destroy all their Death's Shadows.
    Blessed Alliance is pretty interesting as a counter to that deck with lots of utility elsewhere. I don't know if that would convince me on its own to play BA, but it might in tandem with BA's other abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by cheerios View Post
    Is it bad to play 2 Relic Wardens on the sideboard? Besides the rise of DoN, it's also useful against the mirror, Eldrazi and Sneak Show.
    I think it's reasonable to play an additional piece of artifact and enchantment removal in this meta, though I'd be careful about bringing it in for matches that (a) they have lots of other ways to kill creatures, and (b) there isn't much margin for use other than answering a specific SB card that may or may not show up.

    My current answer to these dilemmas involves testing out an Act of Authority and a Devout Lightcaster in the sideboard. The former may not be tutorable or beat down, but it does have the potential of absolutely crushing some opponents over a longer game in tandem with Flickerwisp. The latter is a fairly specialized and conditional piece of technology that answers many general-purpose threats and sideboard cards in a single, Recruitable package, and also combos well with Flickerwisp in longer games.

    These may not be fruitful in the long run, but they seem to be justifiable in the current meta to plug other holes in some builds.

  2. #10082
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Devout Lightcaster is a cool card, but I suspect that it isn't playable with the DnT manabase.

    If everyone starts copying the CFB list and the default Shadow list is UB, that deck will have no way to deal with resolved Artifacts or Enchantments. So Honor the Pure is an okay option, maybe there's some good obscure artifacts to find. Mirran Crusader also starts to get good again if UB Shadow becomes the go-to Delver deck.

  3. #10083
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Cloudchaser Kestrel is a flyer that takes out Dread, among other things. Bonus points for responding to the Erase trigger by Purelacing all their X/1 dudes.

    I'm testing an anthem-ish version (2 Benalish Marshal and 2 Honor of the Pure main with 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar side) and I like it so far. I've been considering Horizon Canopies for some draw options and the green for Shalai. No Stoneforge, no Batterskull, no Swords. Just 2 Jittes for equipment.

  4. #10084
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I think I like Wispmare better than Cloudchaser Kestrel. Dang, I hope the format does not warp to that point. We have always gotten away with being mostly under the radar in terms of hate. This would mark a significant change.
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  5. #10085
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    You can't tutor Wispmare, which makes it a bad choice for a narrow sb one-of.

  6. #10086
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Yeah. That's true.

    Also, I really like that Benalish Marshal card. Too bad it is so hard to cast.
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  7. #10087
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I think I like Wispmare better than Cloudchaser Kestrel. Dang, I hope the format does not warp to that point. We have always gotten away with being mostly under the radar in terms of hate. This would mark a significant change.
    The biggest reason Kestrel gets my vote over Wisp is because it can trade with a Delver if you need it to, and the activation can be marginally useful. Detaching prowhite equips, coloring Eldrazi & Co, abusing their Dread/Sulfur, etc. Yeah, also forgot it's Recruitable.

    I'd agree on the format though. Facing whatever number of white creature hate every round sounds about as fun as brushing my teeth with a chainsaw.

  8. #10088

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    Devout Lightcaster is a cool card, but I suspect that it isn't playable with the DnT manabase.

    If everyone starts copying the CFB list and the default Shadow list is UB, that deck will have no way to deal with resolved Artifacts or Enchantments. So Honor the Pure is an okay option, maybe there's some good obscure artifacts to find. Mirran Crusader also starts to get good again if UB Shadow becomes the go-to Delver deck.
    I think you make a good point. Assuming a typical 60 card, 4 Vial, 15 W-source build, you have a roughly 40% chance of turn 1 Vial, and a 48% chance of WWW by turn 3, assuming you’re on the play with no mulligans. Using these slightly oversimplified numbers, that’s only about a 69% chance of being able to play a Lightcaster on turn 4.

    Ordinarily, that would be enough to sink the card. In most Delver matchups, mana disruption is severe, and artifact removal common in post SB games. Additionally, it’s more important to have reliable early plays than powerful late ones, because we have inevitability.

    In this case though, I’m less sure. Dimir Death’s Shadow (or is it Death’s Shadow Delver?) does not tend to be as strong on the artifact removal front as some other builds. But more importantly, this is a deck where our inevitability is in doubt: you are a bit less likely to just “get Delvered” (though it still happens, I imagine Thoughseize + Reanimate on Mom is awful), and a lot more likely to be facing down several massive creatures on turn 8 or so, along with hate cards. For this reason, I want not only efficient answers (which I do have in the form of 3 PtE), but also powerful ones to place inevitability firmly in my corner. I think Lightcaster does that.

    Mirran Crusader, Gideon, and enchantment based approaches are also viable. I’m not sure these are quite enough here, but they are very powerful and are more versatile than Lightcaster. Specifically, I think anyone without one or more Crusaders in their 75 (and probably their 60) to find with Recruiter is doing themselves a disservice.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Cloudchaser Kestrel is a flyer that takes out Dread, among other things. Bonus points for responding to the Erase trigger by Purelacing all their X/1 dudes.

    I'm testing an anthem-ish version (2 Benalish Marshal and 2 Honor of the Pure main with 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar side) and I like it so far. I've been considering Horizon Canopies for some draw options and the green for Shalai. No Stoneforge, no Batterskull, no Swords. Just 2 Jittes for equipment.
    Cloudchaser Kestrel is probably the coolest anti-DoN card one could ever think of. It seems a bit limited to me, but if that’s your worry, it’s very strong.

    I certainly think things like Honor of the Pure have potential. I’d be very nervous about putting too much hope in actually activating Shalai’s ability though. Finding 2 of 4 Canopies by turn 6 is around an 18% shot. If you are that set on Shalai’s activated ability, you probably want to run 6 or more fetches plus some Savannahs.

    Incidentally, Shalai is probably really good in this match, but like Mom is a card I’d be terrified of getting Reanimated. Hopefully, you’ll have Flickerwisp handy if that happens.

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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    That list not only had 3 DoN, but also 2 LtLH. I think that rises to the level of us considering some type of counter-counter strategy.
    We have always gotten away with being mostly under the radar in terms of hate. This would mark a significant change.
    Here is a spectrum of things that could have happened against that deck:

    * In several matches on camera, UB Delver players land Dread of Night, sweeping the board and making D&T look completely unplayable.

    * In an important feature match on camera, an opposing UB Delver player slams three Dread of Nights and wins the game easily.

    * In an important feature match on camera, an opposing UB Delver player slams three Dread of Nights and loses the game anyway.

    This thread currently looks like the first one happened. The third one is what happened! Their matchup against us is so bad that they essentially devoted 5 sideboard slots just to beat D&T, and then still lost a game on camera where 4 of the 5 sideboard cards were on the table unopposed anyway.

    Instead of being super worried about the level of hate and considering counter-counter strategies, should we instead maybe be happy that an opposing popular deck has a horrendous matchup against us? I think perhaps we are not used to this. If opposing deckbuilders look at the field and say "wow, this D&T matchup is really bad, we need to load up our sideboard with answers to D&T," and the deck gets a bunch of bandwagon support, this is a good development for us.

    Realizing that Serra Avengers and Revokers are more valuable now than before is a healthy way to adjust the deck, but considering a complete rework of our sideboard in the face of good metagame news does not seem right to me.

  10. #10090
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisCunningham View Post
    Here is a spectrum of things that could have happened against that deck:

    * In several matches on camera, UB Delver players land Dread of Night, sweeping the board and making D&T look completely unplayable.

    * In an important feature match on camera, an opposing UB Delver player slams three Dread of Nights and wins the game easily.

    * In an important feature match on camera, an opposing UB Delver player slams three Dread of Nights and loses the game anyway.

    This thread currently looks like the first one happened. The third one is what happened! Their matchup against us is so bad that they essentially devoted 5 sideboard slots just to beat D&T, and then still lost a game on camera where 4 of the 5 sideboard cards were on the table unopposed anyway.

    Instead of being super worried about the level of hate and considering counter-counter strategies, should we instead maybe be happy that an opposing popular deck has a horrendous matchup against us? I think perhaps we are not used to this. If opposing deckbuilders look at the field and say "wow, this D&T matchup is really bad, we need to load up our sideboard with answers to D&T," and the deck gets a bunch of bandwagon support, this is a good development for us.

    Realizing that Serra Avengers and Revokers are more valuable now than before is a healthy way to adjust the deck, but considering a complete rework of our sideboard in the face of good metagame news does not seem right to me.
    Lemme start by saying that I really like this post. You make a strong point. For me, Dread of Night is second only to Humility in terms of making my shoulders slump in a match. I think you are seeing us react to our own experiences with this card rather than those Mr. Wu had. Also, I was late in seeing any of this - I don't keep up with players or even events much. I spent a lot of time looking for the D+T list that won with the blue splash. Ya know, Wu. Took me some time to figure that one out.
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  11. #10091

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    So what about Isolate? Fixes your DoN problem and is usefull for more random things.

  12. #10092
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisCunningham View Post
    Here is a spectrum of things that could have happened against that deck:

    * In several matches on camera, UB Delver players land Dread of Night, sweeping the board and making D&T look completely unplayable.

    * In an important feature match on camera, an opposing UB Delver player slams three Dread of Nights and wins the game easily.

    * In an important feature match on camera, an opposing UB Delver player slams three Dread of Nights and loses the game anyway.

    This thread currently looks like the first one happened. The third one is what happened! Their matchup against us is so bad that they essentially devoted 5 sideboard slots just to beat D&T, and then still lost a game on camera where 4 of the 5 sideboard cards were on the table unopposed anyway.

    Instead of being super worried about the level of hate and considering counter-counter strategies, should we instead maybe be happy that an opposing popular deck has a horrendous matchup against us? I think perhaps we are not used to this. If opposing deckbuilders look at the field and say "wow, this D&T matchup is really bad, we need to load up our sideboard with answers to D&T," and the deck gets a bunch of bandwagon support, this is a good development for us.

    Realizing that Serra Avengers and Revokers are more valuable now than before is a healthy way to adjust the deck, but considering a complete rework of our sideboard in the face of good metagame news does not seem right to me.
    I wouldn't say we're worried so much as we are planning ahead. If you're playing a deck like this, and a black deck is rising in popularity that has a bad matchup against us, you should have a plan for when that card drops. You may not necessarily lose to it spontaneously like we would to something like ... say... 4 Virtue's Ruin and some number of DoN and/or Deluge, but the efficiency of DoN compared to the others cannot be ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Darkview View Post
    Cloudchaser Kestrel is probably the coolest anti-DoN card one could ever think of. It seems a bit limited to me, but if that’s your worry, it’s very strong.

    I certainly think things like Honor of the Pure have potential. I’d be very nervous about putting too much hope in actually activating Shalai’s ability though. Finding 2 of 4 Canopies by turn 6 is around an 18% shot. If you are that set on Shalai’s activated ability, you probably want to run 6 or more fetches plus some Savannahs.

    Incidentally, Shalai is probably really good in this match, but like Mom is a card I’d be terrified of getting Reanimated. Hopefully, you’ll have Flickerwisp handy if that happens.
    Kestrel isn't as limited as you seem to think. It shines against DoN but that isn't the only situation you want it in. It blows enchantments, Dread, Vortex, Deed, etc. It colors Eldrazi thus giving Mom some relevance, it colors Sword of Light & Shadow, and War & Peace, making them useless mana sinks. It's also a flier that can trade with flipped Delvers, and several other commonly played fliers.

    Also, Shalai's activation. I want the "option" of activating her ability. I don't need it "reliably activatable as soon as possible every time". She's an untutorable 2 of in my list. She's there to complement Mom and supplement all my other anthem effects, but mainly to fly through the air and dispense holy justice.

    Realistically I don't see myself activating it more than once or twice a game, if at all. And lategame at that, where six mana is available due to the game going to topdeck mode.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draggo View Post
    So what about Isolate? Fixes your DoN problem and is usefull for more random things.
    Isolate kills Dread, Delver, Molten Vortex, and Shadow, but not much else of importance.

  13. #10093
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisCunningham View Post
    Here is a spectrum of things that could have happened against that deck:

    * In several matches on camera, UB Delver players land Dread of Night, sweeping the board and making D&T look completely unplayable.

    * In an important feature match on camera, an opposing UB Delver player slams three Dread of Nights and wins the game easily.

    * In an important feature match on camera, an opposing UB Delver player slams three Dread of Nights and loses the game anyway.

    This thread currently looks like the first one happened. The third one is what happened! Their matchup against us is so bad that they essentially devoted 5 sideboard slots just to beat D&T, and then still lost a game on camera where 4 of the 5 sideboard cards were on the table unopposed anyway.

    Instead of being super worried about the level of hate and considering counter-counter strategies, should we instead maybe be happy that an opposing popular deck has a horrendous matchup against us? I think perhaps we are not used to this. If opposing deckbuilders look at the field and say "wow, this D&T matchup is really bad, we need to load up our sideboard with answers to D&T," and the deck gets a bunch of bandwagon support, this is a good development for us.

    Realizing that Serra Avengers and Revokers are more valuable now than before is a healthy way to adjust the deck, but considering a complete rework of our sideboard in the face of good metagame news does not seem right to me.
    The Shadow deck beat one DnT player in the semis and was very favored to beat another, entirely due to his sideboard. Winning through 3 DoNs was essentially a fluke, that's going to happen for the DnT player in a tiny percentage of games. The card + a decent hand is gonna beat DnT an overwhelming percentage of the time.

    That said, I think Shadow players will find it hard to indefinitely dedicate that much sideboard space to one matchup. It's easier to do that in the PT, where almost all of the field is tier 1 decks. In real life you have to be prepared for a waterfall of jank decks, and for that you need broadly applicable answers. So while the DoN rate is gonna go up (and it certainly has based on the last few leagues I've played) I think it's going to be a passing trend, after a while these guys are gonna get sick of losing to Enchantress or whatever.

    This relates to why DnT was probably a better choice for the PT than it will be for whatever legacy events are in the future - DnT is always better with an small and expected metagame, and it's always better vs tier 1 blue decks. Almost nobody was playing Burn/Jund/Elves/fast combo at the PT. The only widely played deck that was a bad matchup at the PT was Eldrazi, and that's slightly unfavored, not terrible. It's hard to imagine a better meta ever existing.

  14. #10094
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    That said, I think Shadow players will find it hard to indefinitely dedicate that much sideboard space to one matchup.
    I agree.

    Dread of Night is second only to Humility in terms of making my shoulders slump in a match.
    Interesting. I will defer to your considerable experience, but I find Liliana, Last Hope to be a lot scarier than Dread of Night, because it invalidates a lot of our plays but also clocks us.

    When an opponent plays Dread of Night against us -- a card that only answers our cards -- they are often mis-assessing their role in the matchup. They are the beatdown! If the rest of their deck has no card advantage and is trying to aggressively kill us with one or two cards that cost 1 mana (like the Shadow deck), and they board in a Dread of Night, they are interacting on the wrong axis. They are trying to attack us in card quality, which is a much better situation for us. We will often win the card quality battle even if Flickerwisp is a 2/0 and Stoneforge is a 0/1 if the game goes long enough.

    Now obviously I'm not happy to see a Dread of Night on the table and certainly not three!, but Dread of Night shifts the opponent's role in a way that helps us a lot.

  15. #10095

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Isolate kills Dread, Delver, Molten Vortex, and Shadow, but not much else of importance.
    So, 3 different targets that you care about in a single deck is bad or am I misreading this?

    Don't forget it also kills other random things like Glistner Elf, Vial, Lackey, Lavamancer, Mom, Quirion Ranger, Symbiote, Heritage Druid, Needle, Manabond, Exploration, and aggressive 1-drops of UR/Burn. Just on the top of my head from a few decks you might encounter.

    Edit:
    Cloudchaser Kestrel looks really fun though.

  16. #10096
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Just bought the deck recently so I haven't followed the discussions for any longer period of time - What if any is the consensus on Cataclysm vs Armageddon? Latter would prima facie seem better vs Lands, Grixis monoremoval and Miracles in situations where you don't need to make a miracle comeback vs Jace/Mentor and should end the game more likely on the spot. Cataclysm is better vs Elves for sure but the matchup's ass anyway so meh.

  17. #10097

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Holy Light vs Elves

  18. #10098

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Regarding Kestrel: Okay, I'd considered its anti-enchantment value generally, but not the value of coloring permanents for exploitation by Mom or SoWaP. I'm not sure how good it is overall due to the hefty mana requirement, but there is certainly more utility there than I'd initially considered.

    Regarding Dread of Night: I don't care that Wu got absurdly lucky and won from what should have been an unsalvageable board state. One game does not prove anything, next to all the other games in that event and all other DnT player's experience with DoN. The fact is that DoN is a crushing hate card, it will increase in popularity due to the fact that DnT and Miracles are good right now and it's proven effective. It will probably not be showing up in triplicate, but we should probably prepare ourselves for having to face this card more frequently, and packing an additional, flexible answer that does other work seems a fine and sane way to do so.

    Regarding Isolate: This card does answer a lot of stuff. The problem is that there are few single opponents where it answers a lot of stuff. DSD is a good example of one that it does, but in general it pairs up pretty poorly with its targets and may not be able to remove the thing that's most important in a given moment. Eg: against RUG Delver, it removes Delver and nothing else. Is that good enough? What happens when you draw it and the problem is Tarmogoyf? Basically, the problem is that it's competing with other forms of removal that better cover our needs. How many decks will you want this in over, say, PtE?

  19. #10099
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Darkview View Post
    Regarding Kestrel: Okay, I'd considered its anti-enchantment value generally, but not the value of coloring permanents for exploitation by Mom or SoWaP. I'm not sure how good it is overall due to the hefty mana requirement, but there is certainly more utility there than I'd initially considered.

    Regarding Dread of Night: I don't care that Wu got absurdly lucky and won from what should have been an unsalvageable board state. One game does not prove anything, next to all the other games in that event and all other DnT player's experience with DoN. The fact is that DoN is a crushing hate card, it will increase in popularity due to the fact that DnT and Miracles are good right now and it's proven effective. It will probably not be showing up in triplicate, but we should probably prepare ourselves for having to face this card more frequently, and packing an additional, flexible answer that does other work seems a fine and sane way to do so.

    Regarding Isolate: This card does answer a lot of stuff. The problem is that there are few single opponents where it answers a lot of stuff. DSD is a good example of one that it does, but in general it pairs up pretty poorly with its targets and may not be able to remove the thing that's most important in a given moment. Eg: against RUG Delver, it removes Delver and nothing else. Is that good enough? What happens when you draw it and the problem is Tarmogoyf? Basically, the problem is that it's competing with other forms of removal that better cover our needs. How many decks will you want this in over, say, PtE?
    Woah! Darkview, you just gave me an idea. There is a very cool play here with Kestrel taking out a Dread of Night.

    -Kestrel enters the battlefield off Aether Vial or you cast it.
    -ability to destroy Dread of Night goes on the stack
    -spend one white mana on that pesky strix and another on the Snapcaster
    -activations resolve
    -state-based effects happen, killing those creatures
    -Dread of Night destroyed

    If Dread of Night ever becomes a real thing, this sure seems like a bonafide killer answer now.
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  20. #10100

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Woah! Darkview, you just gave me an idea. There is a very cool play here with Kestrel taking out a Dread of Night.

    -Kestrel enters the battlefield off Aether Vial or you cast it.
    -ability to destroy Dread of Night goes on the stack
    -spend one white mana on that pesky strix and another on the Snapcaster
    -activations resolve
    -state-based effects happen, killing those creatures
    -Dread of Night destroyed

    If Dread of Night ever becomes a real thing, this sure seems like a bonafide killer answer now.
    Yes, this was discussed here about a couple months or so ago. It's one of the draws of the card for sure, but is somewhat limited because of how few things this actually solves. Doesn't affect TNN, won't hurt angler except in insane corner-case scenarios, same with Leovold (is he still a real thing now?), Young Peezy has lost a huge amount of ground to the point that I don't even worry about that scenario, and of course vs. the key deck imo that would play them, Reanimator says lulz to this concept. Sure, turning a griselbrand white and blocking it with a flying creature (itself, generally?) equipped with a pro white sword is decent.

    It does deal with strix, though, so it's not off the table in my book. I'll probably try one in the board.

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