[Deck] Death and Taxes

[CleverPetriDish]

Im very interested in trying this out. I'd like to stay mono-white though for budget reasons.

Not to be too imposing, but could someone maybe point out some of the "tricks" that can used here?

I think I understand the basics; Karakas can return a Legend with damage on the stack, anything targeted with removal can be bounced with Karakas (if Legendary) or Stonecloaker, ect.

You could use Mangara's ability to remove himself and say an opposing Goyf from the game then in responce bounce him back to your hand and the opponents Goyf would still be RFG'd?

The short answer is to look at the front page where Finn talks about some of the finer points.

I am interested here. How many folks have played that blue splash version?

[Versus]

I've read the front page. I just wanted to be sure there wasn't anything I was missing out on.

Just curious if Eiganjo Castle was viable in this deck Finn? It seems like it's tailor made, but that's most likely the bad player in me talking. ;)

[gnurbel2000]

Oh, Oracle text FTL it would seem. I guess it wouldn't matter anyway as 94teen pointed out. Oh well, the deck seems to do fine without that aspect. The reason I assumed that was possible was because of this:



Now that I reread it I realize that isn't what he's saying. I still don't know what exactly he is saying though.

He was talking about Stonecloakers replacing each other so that the opposing Jitte carrying creature can't deal damage

[Versus]

Ohhh, my bad. The a-f were all concerning Cloaker. I misread it as things the deck did as a whole.

edit: Man, Karakas are hard to come by! Seems the only way is through 4 seperate ebay auctions.

[Jourdelune]

I had a shot on 4 Karakas on ebay, 10$ with shipping. At least, 10$ is more like 9.00$ canadian dollars for me. :D And it is the price of 1 Karakas in Montreal.

MAIN CONCERN:

The splash with rishidan port and Karakas and Flagstone got me too many loosing hands to count on. Mulligan is not always an answer.

Taking a hand with 2 Karakas is annoying... but 2 karakas and 2 flastone and it's two less mana for me.

For a splash... we should include at least, one basic land of that splash... but without dual, it will screw us again. The deck run too many none-basic land to splash it without being own by Back to Basic (MUC) or Bloodmage of the Moon or Bloodmoon.

Anyone had test a Winter Orb version? With glowrider and Thorn of amethyst... that should be a real fast lock. Hokori come in mid-game and we had loose on pure aggro-big-beast match. Ghostly Prison + Winter Orb is a SB tech against those. Glowrider + Thorn screw a lot of deck that have 12 or less creatures mix with winter orb, its a GG for us with our little 2 and 1 drops.

But... Including a 8 artifact for disruption, would remove the creature removal of the deck. That is less versatile. Perhaps cutting thorn and winter orb to 3 and putting 2 tutor for 2 jitte and 2 vial... but it will loose tempo.

I had played 100+ d+T game. The deck is nice if the opponent don't know your deck. Otherwise, the deck is slow, your opponent know what are the thing they should do to remove your treats... it's really harder.

For me, the mono-white have better result just in starting hand. And I absolutely love glowrider and thorn... Glowrider is always remove before mangara anyway (by any deck that run spells).

I will try to find a way to put winter orb in. Will try it.. and try a Trinisphere x4 to compare them.

Does with Trinisphere, a StP (sword to plowshare) will need to pay 4 with a glowrider in play? Going on the synergy of glowrider with trinisphere could be better (less cards) than a winter orb - thorn - glowrider but will loose the winter orb speed of the lock away.

Jourdelune

[porcupinetreeman]

Taking a hand with 2 Karakas is annoying... but 2 karakas and 2 flastone and it's two less mana for me.

It's not too bad having a couple karakas in your hand because one gets wastelanded quite a bit.

2 Flagstones isn't too bad in your opening hand because you can tap one for mana , play the other one and get two tapped plains.

[ClearSkies]

It's not too bad having a couple karakas in your hand because one gets wastelanded quite a bit.

2 Flagstones isn't too bad in your opening hand because you can tap one for mana , play the other one and get two tapped plains.

Yea, that works. However, you can't tap the other one before it goes into the graveyard as a state-based effect. Naturally, when they go in to the graveyard, two triggers go on the stack. (You can choose which trigger go in the stack first, but I don't think that really matters here)

[Versus]

I'm really diggin' this. So many cool tricks and surprises can be made and I probably don't even know them all yet. Even SotPC off a Vial durring declare blockers is pretty slick. Obviously Vial set at 3 is the most optimal with Mangara/Cloaker in hand, but set at 2 in certain situations can be the right play, yes?

Couple of questions for those who know the current meta. I've never played in a Legacy tournament ever, so that would be everyone.

It's gonna cost me around $80 to build this not including the Ports. I already own 4 Wastelands, is it the general concensus that Ports > Wastes or can I make due with what I have?

Is Silver Knight still the right choice for this slot with Goblins on the decline? Should/could another WW knight be a better option? Knights of Holy Nimbus maybe?

Do most of you perfer Glowrider over Thorn simply because of having another 2/1 body around even though it cost 1 more to play? Or is Glowrider better in that it can Vialed in as a responce to a tapped out opponent?

I am totally not familiar enough with TES/Belcher and other fast combo decks. Say I'm on the play, what would be the right time/spell to Mana Tithe? I'm guessing the last one (the kill) or do most players leave an extra mana floating just in case of MT or Daze?

[Jourdelune]

Be aware:

D+T is not an auto win in all situations. D+T can disrupt itself quite easily. D+T small creatures chassis can be own by the ned RED Flash pet... +1/-1 to all white creatures.

At first, I had a lot of win on mws, but with the time passing on, I got worse MU. The small beats (except Avenger) cannot hold their ground (except legend that can be bounce... but u can't do it all the time). With a good hand it's better. With a real life deck, it's better. But it's hard. Aggro-control could wreck us. Finn wreck D+T with his new baby deck. 2-0

D+T take time to wins. It can control the game. It can put your game to 20-30 turns. But if the player in front on you can pull his win in turn 2 or 3... it's simply finish. Red burn or normal slight, no prob... old legacy deck that are not put to date, D+T will own them. But if the guyz in front of you runs a Goyf Slight... it's much harder.

All in all, Magic will always be determine by the meta played. D+T got nice versatile utility to be put in any meta and have chance to win with a good SB.

For combo, Chalice of the Void. For Ichorid combo: Tormod Crypt (help against any tarmo/threshold/madness/lifefromtheloam deck).

D+T is not in the deck to beat section. It can win local tourney, local events... 1 time, 2 times, but be sure that people will put some white hate in their deck for the next event. D+T is nice if you like traveling to attend event at different place and times, only to win there and then.

D+T work with surprise and attitude. If your opponent know the deck, you loose 50% of his power. It's by surprise, that your opponent do some error. The first mana tithe rock... the second is rare to come by.

D+T struggle a lot on the red deck with LED putting big creature in play continually. D+T is more control-aggro than aggro-control. On big beast, D+T got the worse part of it. Anyway, it's simply a game of timing and usually with small beats, we got better satisfaction from winning.

I thought at first hand, that it was a deck that have some "place" for some manipulation... changing cards and so on... but the pure white version seems always to have the upper hand.

Jourdelune

[Versus]

Hmmm, with all that being said, maybe it's not the right deck to invest in at the moment. I was just looking for something a little more challenging than Sui, but not as difficult to pilot as Combo and a lot less expensive then anything with two colors. This was the perfect route for me.

[CleverPetriDish]

Versus,

1. Why not try new decks on MWS before you buy any cards?
2. It is of medium difficulty to pilot, so you don't have to practice all that much.
3. I don't think this guy has been playing with optimized versions. Judging from the decklists offered, he has got a lot of the stuff that was tried and discarded a very long time ago. Nothing personal, Jourdelune, but I don't know you. All I have to go by is what I have read, and the cards you are playing have been found to be inferior by the practice of others - myself included.
4. Glowrider is bad with Cataclysm. Cataclysm is critical, so Glowrider is not being played by anyone I know these days.
5. Try not to stray too much from the central strategy of the decks in the opening post. There is plenty of room for meta changes without disrupting the core.
6. Don't use Silver Knight unless you are sure Goblins will be there in force.
7. You Mana Tithe against TES/Belcher on turn one if you can. Do not tap out for a Vial or Hound or anything. You need to buy time with it. Do NOT wait to counter Tendrils. The storm trigger will kill you if you do.

[Versus]

I'd love to, but I don't have internet at home (long story). I think some if the stories posted on here kinda made me weary of MWS as well. I'm pretty rusty in real life and would probably end up pissing off an online opponent.

Thanks for the advice. I proxied up Finn's list from the front page as a starting off point and plan on trying it out when I get home from work. I think I'm getting a little better at looking at decks and seeing what can be changed to adapt to a local environment and what needs to stay fixed as not to disrupt the dynamic of the deck itself.

However, I'm not really sure on a meta at this point, so maybe keeping Silver Knights in the deck is right choice when going in blind.

[JakeH]

I had a shot on 4 Karakas on ebay, 10$ with shipping. At least, 10$ is more like 9.00$ canadian dollars for me. :D And it is the price of 1 Karakas in Montreal.

MAIN CONCERN:

The splash with rishidan port and Karakas and Flagstone got me too many loosing hands to count on. Mulligan is not always an answer.

Taking a hand with 2 Karakas is annoying... but 2 karakas and 2 flastone and it's two less mana for me.

For a splash... we should include at least, one basic land of that splash... but without dual, it will screw us again. The deck run too many none-basic land to splash it without being own by Back to Basic (MUC) or Bloodmage of the Moon or Bloodmoon.

Anyone had test a Winter Orb version? With glowrider and Thorn of amethyst... that should be a real fast lock. Hokori come in mid-game and we had loose on pure aggro-big-beast match. Ghostly Prison + Winter Orb is a SB tech against those. Glowrider + Thorn screw a lot of deck that have 12 or less creatures mix with winter orb, its a GG for us with our little 2 and 1 drops.

But... Including a 8 artifact for disruption, would remove the creature removal of the deck. That is less versatile. Perhaps cutting thorn and winter orb to 3 and putting 2 tutor for 2 jitte and 2 vial... but it will loose tempo.

I had played 100+ d+T game. The deck is nice if the opponent don't know your deck. Otherwise, the deck is slow, your opponent know what are the thing they should do to remove your treats... it's really harder.

For me, the mono-white have better result just in starting hand. And I absolutely love glowrider and thorn... Glowrider is always remove before mangara anyway (by any deck that run spells).

I will try to find a way to put winter orb in. Will try it.. and try a Trinisphere x4 to compare them.

Does with Trinisphere, a StP (sword to plowshare) will need to pay 4 with a glowrider in play? Going on the synergy of glowrider with trinisphere could be better (less cards) than a winter orb - thorn - glowrider but will loose the winter orb speed of the lock away.

Jourdelune

About stp+glowrider+trinisphere:
No. You only pay 3. I run 3x trinisphere in my build. The ruling on trinisphere works like this - upon paying for the spell, you check for things that increase the mana cost, then for things that decrease the mana cost, then trinisphere gets its own check.

edit... btw, i run 4-ports, 4-wastelands, 4-karakas, 4-flagstones, and 8-plains. the only hands ive ever had to throw away had 1 land in them - i find that one of the deck's best qualities is that you rarely ever have to mulligan...

Versus,

1. Why not try new decks on MWS before you buy any cards?
2. It is of medium difficulty to pilot, so you don't have to practice all that much.
3. I don't think this guy has been playing with optimized versions. Judging from the decklists offered, he has got a lot of the stuff that was tried and discarded a very long time ago. Nothing personal, Jourdelune, but I don't know you. All I have to go by is what I have read, and the cards you are playing have been found to be inferior by the practice of others - myself included.
4. Glowrider is bad with Cataclysm. Cataclysm is critical, so Glowrider is not being played by anyone I know these days.
5. Try not to stray too much from the central strategy of the decks in the opening post. There is plenty of room for meta changes without disrupting the core.
6. Don't use Silver Knight unless you are sure Goblins will be there in force.
7. You Mana Tithe against TES/Belcher on turn one if you can. Do not tap out for a Vial or Hound or anything. You need to buy time with it. Do NOT wait to counter Tendrils. The storm trigger will kill you if you do.

i side cataclysm - the only uses i can find for it is against enchantress and goblins. Glowrider is money because thresh HATES it. As long as half of the top8 finishes at major tourny's are thresh - i will continue to maindeck both glowrider and trinisphere...

[Versus]

Can I just say the best thing about this deck is the reactions you get from people when you're asking if they have Karakas for trade. Every one I asked was like "Uhhhh I may have one at home...why??!"

I noticed Finn in his W/u version dropped Orim's Chant. Is it not considered necessary or is it simply because of the Blue splash. Would WW versions still want this in their board?

[Jourdelune]

Versus,

3. I don't think this guy has been playing with optimized versions. Judging from the decklists offered, he has got a lot of the stuff that was tried and discarded a very long time ago. Nothing personal, Jourdelune, but I don't know you. All I have to go by is what I have read, and the cards you are playing have been found to be inferior by the practice of others - myself included.

Of course, the green splash didn't get long in my testing. I got a long ride on death and taxes. I tried different splash with different success. I love to make my own experiment. But... even If I post them, not much feedback have been made, but saying cards are subpar without going further on explicating why surely don't help me either.

I prefer a mono-white version. (really more stable against MUC (back to basic) or Bloodmoon effect or wastelands) I tried a thorn of amethyst + glowrider + winter orb lock. Of course, my Cataclysm are in SB. The lock is fast, and it help greatly against Stompy deck. DragonStompy is really hard MU with the sulfur elemental... Any deck that got more than 8 bigger (5/5 and more or doublestrike hellbent... :S) critter usually break D+T.

I will try to replace the Sword to plowshare with sphere of resistance to give thorn + glowrider + winter orb better lock engine and consistencies. :D ( i really hate combo deck or accelerate deck a la stompy and that kind of heavier taxes should wreck control even more... now Aggro Control is slower but stronger with taxes heavier build than the main list post by Finn... so it really depends on Meta... and in that regard, the shell is really good to be adapt to any local meta). Winter Orb got the privilege to slow man land tactics. It stop any rishidan port user. And really mess deck with 3 drops and more (a la stax). Couple with Auriok Transfixer (to even untap Vial... ), winter orb is more appealing.

The main monowhite list at first page, is really nice. But I like to give surprise to my opponent even If i use a D+T shell. It's harder for the nerds lurking around when they face something taxes heavier.

Of course, withtout StP and Cata in main... it become more a Taxes deck than a Death and Taxes.

Mana tithe without the taxes effect are less appealing for me.

Note: Silver knight are nice even if gobo are not in the tourney. DragonStompy, Red Death, Burn or Zoo don't like pro red at all. It is a reason why I keep Tividar in my SB.

Since, I play taxes heavy, my creature are 3 drops to make the deal with vial. Of course, Isu and Serra Avenger save me from my own lock if Vial is not on the board.

After much testing and going in local tourney, I will made a come back for report.

The fact that Finn seems to have stop his D+T R&D could be a turn over to continue to speak about it. The other concern about it, is a lot of testing have been done before the primer was release and so, we don't got cards performance on old test that have been done... so, it is basically, a go try to test yourself without knowing if it has been done.

And even the main mono white list give on page one, don't perform so well in a lot of situation. And in that regard, I understand Finn going on something new. After the shock and surprise your opponent got on D+T, he will always be better prepare for the next one, and there the deck is subpar to any tier 1 deck. It's the reason why, it is not in the Deck to Beat section, yet.

Jourdelune

[Finn]

Hey Jourdelune. I am not so much done with this deck as I have nothing useful to add at the moment. I am going to Mass this weekend, and this is one of the decks I have with me. Those guys are very familiar with it, and perhaps I can get some new perspective.

[Versus]

I put a lot of money ($100 is A LOT right now) into getting this ready for Worlds. Did I make the wrong choice? It doesn't seem like it's getting much attention as of late.

I realize combo is a problem, but Chant/Thorns/Tithe seem like enough to stall them out long enough to get our guys through. The rest of the creatures spread out between the MD and SB all have purpose against so many of the T1 decks, is it just not enough?

Either the majority of players are like the people I've shown the deck to who think it questionable or "too slow" and just can't see the synergy by deck list alone or it really is underwhelming in application. My testing against other decks is pretty limited, but extremely positive.

I guess I'll roll with it reguardless. Always been a fan of the underdog.

[Joon]

What do you think about the B-Splash? It offerst us with Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant vaible Main-Board options and additional Duresses in the Side and Vindicate in the Disenchant-slot - seems kinda sexy to me. I'll post my list after a little testing later, maybe we could even play Extirpates in the Side and/or Therapys, maybe instead of Duress in the Side?

// Lands
4 [LG] Karakas
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
3 [U] Plains (2)
4 [A] Scrubland
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
3 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
3 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [PLC] Stonecloaker
4 [SC] Silver Knight
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [EX] Cataclysm
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [LOR] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [PY] Disenchant
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy

That's my current list. Silver Knight is ok but not overwhelming, the fact that Red Gro doesn't like him prevented me from cutting it. Maybe White Knight is an option? Protection from black isn't that bad in times people recognize that Smother is an nice removal right now. The rest of the mainboard is pretty good how it is, the Sideboard isn't that bad at all. What di you think about this deck?

[OuterCrow]

I'm not sure if Thoughtseize is the best idea alongside Dark Confidant - at least not without a way of gaining some life. I would either replace the Thoughtseize with a simple 4 x Duress or alternatively, replace the mainboard Silver Knights with Auriok Champion.

[Tao]

I put a lot of money ($100 is A LOT right now) into getting this ready for Worlds. Did I make the wrong choice? It doesn't seem like it's getting much attention as of late.

http://www.magic-league.com/deck/384...&%20Taxes58249