Not even then. What you should do is go get a judge, but you can not interfere with the match in any way - including telling them to wait while you get a judge.Originally Posted by Cait_Sith
Spectators should never interfere with matches, ever, period. Pretty simple.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
This is wrong. I used to have it bookmarked, but, if a spectator sees a situation where a judge needs to be called, they are supposed to CALL THE JUDGE. Please DO NOT read extra words into my sentences just to make yourself look better.
Team Multi-Grain - We're wholesome.
Huh?
Get a judge? Do. Interfere with the match in any way? Don't.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
Oh goody. So you can read the words, but you cannot understand the concepts?
Wow. Oh look, before you even posted I had ALREADY CONCEDED MY ERROR in that instance. Why do you think there is any point is saying I am wrong and then SAY WHAT I SAID?
The word interfere is in quotations because we were previously discussing interference. Also, calling a judge is still technically interfering by the strictest definition of the word. I put the word interfere in quotes to make apparent both. Forgive me for assuming people are moderately inteeligent
Team Multi-Grain - We're wholesome.
You were doing nothing but confusing the issue. If you're going to bring a point up, be clear about it. It was not (and still isn't) at all clear what you were trying to say.
Calling a judge (when done in a way that doesn't interfere in the match) is not by itself interfering in the match. Not technically, not in any way shape or form.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
Actually, your wrong. Calling a judge in the way Cait was explaining it WILL interfere with the match, because if it's enough to get them in, they WILL stop it to get both sides of the situation that you explain to them. No, you aren't saying "hey stop, I'm gonna go get this guy", but the second he comes to the table, your action of getting him caused the interference. That's what he meant by "interfering". Understand now?
And as far as Anusien is concerned, your really, really wrong. Judges make mistakes on countless occasions, and I've known SEVERAL judges in the area in FNM or similar environments that should have their judging ability revoked, because they either cheat/fix games themselves, or have so many faulty rulings they should get retested. Even head judges have been found wrong on occasions, and I can think of multiple instances in Vintage or even Legacy where a medium/large sized game required judges to be called out and had to actually look up higher judges rulings on websites, or in some instances actually call ones that would be available. In no way shape or form should the head judge EVER be considered "law" if you know for a fact your right, and can prove it with solid evidence. I've seen instances myself where a Level 3 judge was corrected on the spot by a Level 1, who had proof of it.
As far as this tournament is concerned, it sounds like the altercation between the husband and you was his fault. Telling him to shut the hell up was uncalled for, but it sounded provoked, and was not between you and her, so that shouldn't be cited for USL Conduct. As for her calling you a cheat, you calling her a liar was not unsportsmanlike, it was truth. If multiple people that you don't know on the sidelines can say that she was wrong, and the slip SHE SIGNED said you won, there's no ruling about it. The ruling was wrong, flat out. To be honest, if I were the judge I would have DQ'd her. Falsely accusing someone of cheating when there were bystanders to prove otherwise is just dumb, and very much a "no tolerance" situation, at least that's the way a number of judges have told me it works. If you were a cheat, she should have said something before the slip was signed, while the judge was there. She probably waited until the last second because she saw that it kicked her out of T8 potential, I've seen it happen a lot. I say talk to the judge next time you are in there, and let him know you will be in contact with DCI/WoTC reps if he's unable to host a tournament to satisfactory conditions. That whole scenario sounds like complete nonsense, and I've heard of very similar situations happening a lot.
It reminded me far too much of a similar situation I had, where my opponent purposefully "forgot" what the storm count was at, called a judge on me when I declared my Tendrils lethal, and required me to go back over CARD FOR CARD what I played. When I told the judge (who knows me very well as a Storm player) every single play made that turn, in precise order (including the specific color mana activations of LED and Lotus Petals, and when spells were flashed back), then also had the opponent concede the fact that he said "Ok" upon EVERY spell I played to pass priority, he told the guy he was giving him a warning for unsportsmanlike conduct for attempting to cause a loss "because I didn't write down everything that was happening, just a check mark for each successful spell".
Then the guy went on for 5 minutes after his match loss was declared saying that a head judge in a "real" tournament would have faulted me, to which the judge (able to host Rlvl 3 tournies) said "Your lucky I'm in a good mood, I can easily kick you out for that comment right now". We need more judges like that, apparently.
This is actually pretty simple.
The judge is right. Even when he is wrong, he is right.
That's not true, and even Wizards would back that. If a judge is to be found in the wrong, with substantial proof, they would want the judge to admit they were wrong. They know people aren't perfect, and judges have been proven wrong before. If they stand by judges who are obviously wrong on multiple occasions, then they lose any reason to have them be judges in the first place, and any respect from players that actually look to them for correct rulings.
As far as this situation is concerned, the judge has the last word, as it's not a ruling matter, but a personal practice one. But even then, I'd like the judge to inform me of what conclusion he came to in order to come to said ruling, so I would know for future reference. Just being called a cheat because people outside of the match are trying to explain to her how storm works isn't enough to call a rematch, especially when he was observing it towards the end.
It's just a bad situation in general when judges can't even agree with themselves, and have to constantly change rulings after the fact, when it does no good. They really should work on a better way to document everything (rules errata, card interactions, interference with matches, etc), as it's pretty obvious just citing the comp rulebook isn't good enough in some cases.
Judges are most definitely not always right. Some are out dated and dont know rules on cards recently released since they dont keep up with rule updates and card faqs. Some judges just barely passed the test. We used to have a TO a few years back who actually thought the FNM cards could be used in sanctioned standard tournaments.
We have people playing Priest of Titania in onslaught elves and Powder Keg against Affinity. He insisted on being right although several people brought it to his attention and he was eventually put in his place.
Certainly never fear speaking up to a judge.
Now playing real formats.
What P_R means is that the HJ's word is LAW for a tournament. If a HJ wanted, they could arbitrarily change the way certain cards work for the tournament. Of course, they quickly be speaking with Andy Heckt, but the potential is there.
If a judge makes a mistake or you disagree with a ruling, appeal to the HJ. If the HJ rules a certain way, that ruling stands. It doesn't matter if it is wrong, once the HJ has made a ruling, the ruling is final. Now, you're welcome to try and present your evidence to the HJ before the ruling is made, or talk to them after the round, but the ruling is final. Now, if a HJ makes a ruling you later find out to be false, it's worth noting the exact reason why and knowing it in case the situation comes up, or even getting in contact with the TO/Judge to let them know (politely).
I'm not saying that judges are infallible, because clearly they aren't
Also, don't make the mistake of saying that a L3 is a better or higher judge than an L1. They both have different responsibilities and issue of scope, and experience. However, on the floor an L3 is equivalent to an L1; they're both Judges.
DeathWingZERO: If you have issues with specific judges or events, report them to Andy Heckt. He takes that kind of thing very seriously.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
I've done my fair share of reporting, the only shop in the area I have any problems with will never get their judging ability revoked, as their practically the only thing left in Portland. People have tried over and over, and it's been revoked once, but not again. I also haven't been there in years, since the TO decided to side with 2 people who formerly came to my store to play, and associated me with a certain group of less than stellar PT wannabe players, and caused me to nearly get a match loss, issuing me a warning instead.
As far as the tournaments are concerned though, I remember a specific event at a high calibur Vintage event, when Dragon was first showing up. Since the HJ was obviously wrong, and there was plenty at stake in the matches (I believe it was an early SGC event, with Power or equivalent as prizes, but I could be wrong), enough players had to get together to basically coerce him to call in to a higher judge that had ruled how it worked correctly (for a lack of better way of putting it). Now I'm not saying that you should go out and be a dick about it, but if you know the judge is wrong, give them the proof, and make sure they don't ruin a very potentially high stakes tournament JUST because they are the final word. There's nothing wrong with asking them to appeal to the higher powers when you know they have already ruled correctly in the same situation. If anything, your helping the judge, and they should believe it as such. Judges at all levels should be on the same page as far as rulings go.
The problem is some rulings are incredibly complex. One such problem that came up was: Can my opponent look at my sideboard if he is controlling me turn? If he casts a Wish via Mindslaver?
The answer:
* The rules of magic are permissive, not restrictive, by nature: a
player may only take an action allowed by the rules (rather than "may
take any action not forbidden by the rules").
* The Comp Rules (ie: the rules of the GAME) allow a player to take
certain _game actions_, such as drawing a card or playing an activated
ability.
* The UTR and MFR (ie: rules of the tournament) allow a player to take
certain _tournament actions_, such as conceding or drawing a game, or
dropping from the tournament.
* The MFR were recently changed to allow a player to look at his or
her sideboard at any time (with the caveat that it must be kept very
clear of their hand/library). This is a tournament action, not a game
action. The game rules make no provisions for the concept of a
sideboard, so this action is meaningless within the context of the
game rules.
* The CR rules for Mindslaver allow a player to choose what *game*
actions his opponent can take.
Result: Because Mindslaver only allows a player to control the game
actions of his or her opponent, it doesn't allow a player to concede
or drop for his opponent. Analogously, it doesn't allow him or her to
look at an opponent's sideboard, and the information the opponent has
about the contents of his or her sideboard is not in-game information
available to the Mindslaver's controller.
That is a large ruling that was carefully thought out, a luxury judges don't have during a tournament, so the odds of the screwing up are much higher.
(This ruling was made by Gavin Duggan.)
Team Multi-Grain - We're wholesome.
At a PTQ or higher, if you appeal a judge's ruling to the Head Judge and it doesn't come out in your favor, you accept it regardless if it's the right ruling or not. Failure to do this is grounds for Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalties (it's in the current Penalty Guidelines that if you don't listen to a judge it's grounds for Unsportsmanlike - Major, rather than Failure to Follow Instructions), which start at game losses. Getting a game loss or worse because you try to get the judge to give the 'right' ruling seems absolutely worse than the ruling itself, so is the risk worth it to you?
While I understand it, again this shows nothing more than utter contempt by high judges at being called out on a false ruling. While I would say I wouldn't like to get game losses for saying a judge is wrong, I'd also hate to scrub out a tournament and lose points on a judge call that was wrong, and never get credit back for it when I later appeal that same ruling to a higher judge after the fact.
In any case, it merely means that if the rules can call a person on Unsportsmanlike Conduct for calling a HJ on a faulty ruling, this only furthers my comments that they need to seriously work on getting every judge on the same page asap. When something as serious as PT points are at stake, you'd think they'd all be on the ball.
I've seen players who were patently wrong fight VEHEMENTLY with a Head Judge trying to appeal a ruling. That seriously impedes the flow of a tournament.
Have issues with the system? Become a judge yourself!
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
At the point you become that engrossed in winning the argument you may as well just give up, because your gonna lose more than a match loss.
As far as the system goes, I've considered it on several occasions, but I've decided I'd never join it. Far too much work to climb the ladders in there, I'd much rather just keep trying to get into R&D and the likes without getting in through the judge system.
From what I've been told by some of the lvl 1's and 2's in the area, it can be entertaining, but you better be damn good at remembering rulings on the spot, and have ways of getting to and from tournaments without compensation (money wise), as lower end judges get boosters/singles for payment.
Plus, I couldn't pull off spending entire weekends doing that for as long as is needed to go from levels 1 to 4. I was told just to attain Level 1 here you need to be a volunteer judge at at least 2 events plus pass the test, and it gets worse the higher you go. I don't think I'm dedicated enough to the game itself to pull 30+ hours a weekend on multiple occasions a year.
Andy Heckt wouldn't take anything that happens in an insignificant shop seriously if they killed his family. Or at least not in a semi-rural area like our shop.
Half the problem is the players, also. There are far too many instances of players deliberately spending more time and effort finding ways to manipulate the game to where they can call a judge and win by forfeit rather than actually winning, and this practice is largely rewarded.
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