One Hell of a Situation...

[lavafrogg]

Okay...pay attention now.
I am an IGGy Pop player in legacy so I know how storm works in this game called magical the gathering.
I was playing in a type two tournament and was playing the U/R storm deck. I was 3-1 for the day and playing into the top eight (i didnt hear the tourny start so I took a loss in the first round)
I won game one easily (she was playing GW aggro so it was a bye).
Game two was a different story. I drew every land in the deck and my lotus blooms the problem was that she was not killing me.
She had a troll ascetic with a pariah on it and enough mana to regenerate it three times. I played rite of flame, rite of flame, claws of gix, claws of gix, pyromancers swath, grapeshot, remand, grapeshot killing her through the troll(ironicly enough she didnt regenerate the troll at all).
She asked what was going on, not understanding the combo, and I explained it to her. Due to the fact that we were the last ones playing everyoine else, including the judge, gathered around. As a group we explained to her what happened. She signed the match sheet and we turned it in.
I went outside and ten minutes later went back in to hear the top eight parings. After the parings were up the woman and her husband went to the judge and told him that I cheated and got help from the players that helped explain the combo to her. She was saying that I did not know how to play my deck and she should have won the match.
After a minor confrontation with the husband where I told him to shut the hell up and then called his wife a liar the judge decided that we were to replay the whole match. I though this was completly unfair in that I had won the first game fair and square and had already offered to replay the second game.
What should have happened in this event.
P.S. What happened is that I left the tournament because I only play type two for fun and this was not fun in the slightest and she calle dthe judge when i asked for a mulligan so he could shuffle my deck...what a bitch

[Nihil Credo]

Wasn't there a judge when the players gathered around you? What did he say?

[Cabal-kun]

She asked what was going on, not understanding the combo, and I explained it to her. Due to the fact that we were the last ones playing everyoine else, including the judge, gathered around. As a group we explained to her what happened. She signed the match sheet and we turned it in.

After a minor confrontation with the husband where I told him to shut the hell up and then called his wife a liar the judge decided that we were to replay the whole match. I though this was completly unfair in that I had won the first game fair and square and had already offered to replay the second game.

[Versus]

Jeez, thankfully the people I play T2 with (for fun) are totally chill.

Anyway, I would probably said screw it and split too. Either that or just replayed the match. You'd probably take her again so what's the difference.

[Nihil Credo]

If the judge that said the match should be replayed was the same one that stood there and did nothing as you got "outside help", either something's very wrong with the judge or something's very wrong with your account of the facts.

[Silverdragon]

In any way there is no chance whatsoever that you'd have to replay the match. Either you are right and didn't cheat so everything is fine or you did cheat and you get DQ'ed.
In this situation the only thing a judge has to do is find out who is right. If he can't tell exactly he has to make a call for what he thinks is most likely. He doesn't need proof that you cheated to DQ you but he also doesn't need proof that you didn't to keep you in the tournament.
In this case you had spectators and a judge who can confirm that you did in fact win the match without cheating as you did all the correct actions to win the deciding game.
Had I been a judge there I'd give your opponent a warning for unsporting conduct minor (she accused you of cheating) and continue with the tournament.

[Maveric78f]

I don't see the point. When you play, you don't have to explain what are the synergies between the cards you play, you just have to play them and keep accurate the life-points count. You are not supposed to give you opponent a lesson about the ruling or about how the storm triggers and the fact that the ascetic troll will need a lot of regeneration shields in order not to be destroyed.

As Nihil insinuated, something very abnormal has occurred, either in the judge's head or in yours.

[lavafrogg]

Well,
the judge delayed the tourney for an hour because he wanted to play and he was already playing in a spoils tourney. The rounds were delayed because he was not paying attention to the result slips and he was right there when this happened.
Other players are upset about this what should we do?

[Ewokslayer]

Ok, first you can't replay magic games in a tournament.
There is a signed match slip so both of you agreed that you won 2-0.
The only arguement is whether you had outside help from the spectators and thus cheated.
Since you already had comboed out and only had "outside help" in explaining to her how she died it is probably only the spectators that would get warnings for interering in a match.

When you play, you don't have to explain what are the synergies between the cards you play, you just have to play them and keep accurate the life-points count.

You do have to explain how your cards interact when they are actually doing the interaction. You don't have to explain anything before hand however.

Other players are upset about this what should we do?

Get a better judge/TO.

[Silverdragon]

If your judge is DCI certified you can contact the DCI and they will take further steps. However if this was "just" a FNM or something similar I'd talk to your TO and the judge (if the judge was also the TO then upgrade this to the store owner or whoever told this judge to run the tournament) in question and try to solve this issue.

[Tacosnape]

If your judge is DCI certified you can contact the DCI and they will take further steps. However if this was "just" a FNM or something similar I'd talk to your TO and the judge (if the judge was also the TO then upgrade this to the store owner or whoever told this judge to run the tournament) in question and try to solve this issue.

You're wrong. The reality is that the DCI won't take steps at all to correct any sort of problem in a small setting in a format they're largely unconcerned with (anything not Standard or Limited.)

We had a problem of tournaments being a sham at our local area where literally one person would bribe out all the other players to where he literally couldn't lose, including the store owners and tournament directors who would occasionally play under alternate names. This is why the name "Daniel M. Oravet" appears in the worldwide top 10 of Eternal Rankings.

A few emails and phone calls got me assured that the case was "Under investigation," which resulted in absolutely nothing being done ever. And now said store is en route to becoming a premier store. Neat how the DCI does business, isn't it?

Local judges and tournament directors like this are killing the game, because it makes people like us not want to spend our time and money to play in Legacy tournaments, which is killing the format. Still, there really isn't a whole lot of shit you can do about it. Your only options are to either A. Not play, or B. Lead some kind of revolt amongst the other people who are fed up and overthrow whoever's currently in charge of the tournaments. B rarely works, because most people don't really give a shit in the long run, so I usually recommend A.

[Nightmare]

You're wrong. The reality is that the DCI won't take steps at all to correct any sort of problem in a small setting in a format they're largely unconcerned with (anything not Standard or Limited.)

Okay...pay attention now...
I was playing in a type two tournament...

[Tacosnape]

Alright, valid point. They still probably won't do anything in a small environment, though.

[Anusien]

Alright, valid point. They still probably won't do anything in a small environment, though.

As an aside, they do, since they've cracked down at some local shops I know if. If it's an issue to you, e-mail Andy Heckt (andy.heckt@wizards.com) and let him know what's going on. If you have concerns, e-mail him again. Everytime I've talked to him, he's been reasonable and very concerned with keeping OP running smoothly.

As to the original situation:
#1) Spectators shouldn't interfere in a match. If they do, you should politely ask them to stop. It sounds like they were guilty of Cheating - Outside Assistance
#2) Without a doubt, the judge telling you to replay the match is wrong.
#3) You were most certainly guilty of Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

After a minor confrontation with the husband where I told him to shut the hell up and then called his wife a liar

Here's what should have happened. When she doesn't understand what's going on, you explain it to her. When/if she still doesn't understand, you say, "If you have any questions, feel free to call a judge." She does, calls the judge, the judge explains it to her, and the match resolves. Any spectators who tried to interfere, you should ask them, "Let's just let a judge handle the situation." As a judge, I'd give some sort of polite but firm Caution to the spectators to stop interfering, and then after that they risk Cheating - Outside Assistance. If they have any issues or anything to add, they should talk to the judge on the side. Incidentally, you can be DQed from tournaments you're spectating, and you can be investigated as per any other DQ in the same way.

This is not an excuse to go to the judge and say, "OMG my friends online said you ruled that wrong!!!" While encouraging judge growth is always a good idea, I would handle it one of two ways. I would put a word into OP about the way things are being run, and encourage the judge there to check out some good resources like #mtgjudge and the Rules Adviser test (and the Penalty Guidelines). Chances are you shouldn't say anything to the judge yourself, but feel free to put a word in the TO's ear about the unorthodox way things are being handled.

[Brushwagg]

B. Lead some kind of revolt amongst the other people who are fed up and overthrow whoever's currently in charge of the tournaments.

Actually Syracuse did that, and we got a better store to hold weekly events. Now not everyone is in the same boat, but it can be done.

[Cait_Sith]

Anusien, for the most part, hit the nail on the head.

The one thing I would like to note is that an spectator can "interfere" in very limited circumstances, such as calling a judge, or informing the judge of a problem.

EX:

My friend was playing at first tournament and his opponent stupidly said "Hey, if he targets my Skulking Knight with his Detainment Spell (at the time attached to a Serendib Sorcerer) then he will kill it."

Rules wise this works well, since the Knight's triggered ability will force it to be sacrificed and the Detainment Spell's activated ability will be countered on resolution and never leave the Sorcerer.

My friend does this and his opponent tells him the Detainment Spell dies (it does NOT). My friend proceeds to put the Detainment Spell in his graveyard. I stop him and tell him to the judge (I should have called the judge here). My friend does so and they explain the situation to the judge.

The problem here was that my friend puts the Detainment Spell back into play UNATTACHED to anything, so the judge thinks he had just cast it from his hand. The judge rules that my friend's opponent is correct (note that his opponent did not correct this accidental misrepresentation of the game state). I stop the judge and tell him that the Detainment Spell was already in play and attached to the Serendib Sorcerer and my friend was using Detainment Spell's activated ability. My friend and his opponent agree that this was the version of events and the judge changes his previous ruling to favor my friend.

Long story short? If you are a spectator, judges DO appreciate you helping them honestly IF THEY NEED IT. (I cannot find the article on this anymore, but it used to be there.) Otherwise, a spectator should spectate, nothing else.

[bigbear102]

I think it was Alix Hatfield playing Day 2 of GP Philly against Dredge-a-tog. There were at least 10-12 people crowded around the match as it was a long one. There were no judges around though. Strangely enough, no one noticed when the tog player dredged during his draw phase, and then drew a card. I was the only one out of both players and 10 spectators to notice, so I went over and told a judge what happened. I was actually reasonably worried about being wrong and looking like a jackass, but it turns out that I was right.

This was actually in return for Alix pointing out that one of my opponents drew an extra card in day 1.

aside to Cuse players: At Altered States once, I was playing something blue, and Twincasted Dirty's Accumulated Knowledge (he was playing Solidarity). I drew 2 cards, because there was one other copy in the yard. Dirty told me I draw 3 because his copy is also counted (even though it's still on the stack). I told him no, and he called the 'judge' (Nate). We told him what was going on, and he ruled that I drew 3 cards. I told him no, but he said to anyway. It was funny, cuz Dirty was cheating because he had counted my deck and knew that the extra card would make his Brain Freeze lethal, too bad he sucks and I drew into answers.

[Mulletus]

I think it was Alix Hatfield playing Day 2 of GP Philly against Dredge-a-tog. There were at least 10-12 people crowded around the match as it was a long one. There were no judges around though. Strangely enough, no one noticed when the tog player dredged during his draw phase, and then drew a card. I was the only one out of both players and 10 spectators to notice, so I went over and told a judge what happened. I was actually reasonably worried about being wrong and looking like a jackass, but it turns out that I was right.

That was me, and the first judge tried to let him just put the drawn card back. I appealed to the red striped judge and won the appeal.

[Anusien]

aside to Cuse players: At Altered States once, I was playing something blue, and Twincasted Dirty's Accumulated Knowledge (he was playing Solidarity). I drew 2 cards, because there was one other copy in the yard. Dirty told me I draw 3 because his copy is also counted (even though it's still on the stack). I told him no, and he called the 'judge' (Nate). We told him what was going on, and he ruled that I drew 3 cards. I told him no, but he said to anyway. It was funny, cuz Dirty was cheating because he had counted my deck and knew that the extra card would make his Brain Freeze lethal, too bad he sucks and I drew into answers.

If the judge gives an incorrect ruling, or a ruling you disagree with, you appeal to the HJ. If the HJ says something you don't like, tough. You don't disagree like that. The HJ's word is law at a tournament. I understand the intention behind the act, but doing that sort of thing erodes the way tournaments work, since people don't get used to acting properly at "real" tournaments.

[Tacosnape]

If the judge gives an incorrect ruling, or a ruling you disagree with, you appeal to the HJ. If the HJ says something you don't like, tough. You don't disagree like that. The HJ's word is law at a tournament. I understand the intention behind the act, but doing that sort of thing erodes the way tournaments work, since people don't get used to acting properly at "real" tournaments.

Incompetent Judges / Head Judges erode the way tournaments work, not the people who dispute their word. Whenever a Head Judge makes an incorrect ruling, it erodes people's trust in the Head Judges' interpretation of the rules versus their own. This in turn causes people to frequently and belligerently question judge's rulings, even in in the majority of cases where the judges are actually correct.

Far too many judges simply take the stance of "We're human, we make mistakes," rather than doing everything they can to prepare themselves to be excellent at what they do.

For what it's worth, I don't play in low-level tournaments with judges unless I know and trust the judge. All you're doing is throwing your money away.