Note: This thread is for the discussion and further development of Blue/Green/Red Threshold only. Discussions on the other color splashes can be found elsewhere. As this thread is in the LMF, it will be heavily moderated to keep the discussion relevant and on-topic.
"Legacy Blue/Green/Red Gro/Threshold"
History / Overview
In 1997, Alan Comer demonstrated that one could run an absurdly low quantity of lands in a control deck and yet operate comfortably into the late-game thanks to cheap cantrips and library manipulation. His innovation was known as Turbo Xerox, a mono-blue control deck with an amazingly light land count of 17. While potentially losing some late game power in comparison to similar decks of the time, it made up for it in consistency. Comer’s draw spells could be lands in the early-game, counters in the mid-game, and win conditions in the late-game, giving his deck far more flexibility than contemporary control decks.
This concept remained strong throughout the years, and in 2001 Comer created Miracle Grow, a blue/green Extended aggro-control deck based on efficient creatures, free counters, a low land count, and cheap library manipulation to tie it together. The deck went through a good deal of development after that (you can find decklists and history here), but the basic principles remained the same.
Legacy Gro began as a port of this archetype (or its later versions), but metagame pressures and the lack of Gush forced it towards a slightly more defensive strategy. Because Legacy has been dominated by aggro (particularly Vial Goblins) for most of its existence, access to early answers (in addition to library manipulation) is essential. This conflicts with Quirion Dryad, which is most effective when played early, so threshold creatures are preferred. It also requires the sort of efficient removal that can only be found in a third splash color (though three colors had been done before with Super Gro and Vintage GAT).
Red Gro, despite some early success predating the “Big Arse 2” that brought the archetype in its various color combinations to mainstream attention, was not widely popularized until GP Philly, where Pat McGregor (SARCASTO) made it to the top eight with a list that can be found here. Nicholas Labarre took it to another top eight finish at GP Lille the following month, where it made up nearly 15% of day two. Since these events, red Gro has been less successful and seemingly less prevalent at larger events than white, but is still held as a competitive route for the deck to take.
The advantages and disadvantages to running red Gro over the other options depend somewhat on build, and as of yet there is no standard build of red Gro, and no standard build of any other color combination for comparison. However, there are a few general points to be made.
The primary difference between red and the other potential splash colors is removal. Unlike white and black, red’s removal is damage-based, creating a weakness to large creatures but providing for a slightly quicker clock when turned to the opponent, as well as never being completely dead. White doesn’t have access to such a deep pool of removal as red does, and black’s is rarely versatile enough to justify running more than necessary. However, since red removal is never dead, it is possible to run considerably more, which stresses the advantages and the disadvantages of the color, or to run only the minimum, which makes the deck play nearly identically to the other versions.
If you choose to run the minimum of removal spells, the differences between red and the other color combinations will be subtle, and you will have to make the decision based on specific cards (especially sideboard cards). If you choose to run more, you will have an advantage against decks based on relatively vulnerable creatures (Goblins, Deadguy Ale), but a disadvantage against those with larger or less vulnerable ones (the mirror match, Angel Stompy). Your control and combo matchups will be only slightly affected in the former case, but if you find yourself cutting draw and counters for burn, they will likely become weaker.
Card Choices
Decklists are still quite varied within the archetype, and Gro’s draw engine allows it to take situational cards better than most decks, so there are a host of options I won’t be covering here. I can only explain some general guidelines, which may not always be correct. Feel free to suggest lists contrary to these suggestions if appropriate.
Draw
Brainstorm is the only universally agreed upon draw spell, though Serum Visions is in most lists you’ll find. Visions digs deep into your library, but it takes either a full turn or another draw spell to get any use out of the card selection. This makes it excellent on turn one, but it becomes worse as you run out of cantrips in the mid/late-game. Portent is similar, but unlike Serum Visions, can’t get you any card on the turn you play it. However, Portent can draw you any of the top three on the opponent’s turn, making it faster at finding instants. Portent and Serum Visions have the distinction of being powerful enough to allow you to keep a one land hand with one of them almost every time, an area where they are even better than Brainstorm.
Mental Note is helpful at building threshold, but doesn’t offer any library manipulation without a Brainstorm or Portent. It can make for a quick recovery from Tormod’s Crypt and may be necessary if you play a low number of cantrips, but the lack of manipulation can hurt your mid/late game draws.
Predict is often included as a card advantage engine (working with Brainstorm, Serum Visions, Portent, and/or Magma Jet), but whether or not it is necessary is a matter of contention. It makes attrition wars such as those with board control and the mirror match much easier to fight, but is not very efficient at finding answers in the first few turns. Accumulated Knowledge has seen some play but has not shown up much recently.
At least 12 draw spells are necessary for the deck to run smoothly, and there is no real maximum, since they are nearly always useful. More draw spells improve your flexibility because they make it easier to find outs in any particular situation.
Removal
The deck needs at least 4 Lightning Bolt, and can run more if desired. Fire // Ice and Magma Jet are preferred for their versatility, but you have access to more efficient cards like Chain Lightning if efficiency is required.
More burn spells cut into the room for your draw engine, so they’ll generally weaken the deck against anything with non-creature threats or difficult to remove creatures. They do, however, give you a good amount of reach, keeping them from being dead in any matchup (in contrast to the removal options of the other colors). Fire // Ice and Magma Jet in particular offer other uses, but are still generally worse than most of the other cards in the deck in those matchups.
Counters / Disruption
The necessary counters are 4 Force of Will, 3-4 Daze, and some number of Counterspell. More hard counters help you against combo but aren’t great against fast aggro and can be difficult to use in multiples early. Some builds run the full 4 Counterspells, especially those with fewer draw spells (and thus less ability to dig for counters when necessary), while many run less (and perhaps none). Disrupting Shoal sometimes shows up as a one-of.
As for additional answers, Pithing Needle is commonly run in the maindeck, though this may be metagame-dependent. It is useful against most decks, great against Goblins (shutting down Aether Vial) and a few other competitive decks, but poor in the mirror match and against Solidarity.
Any other more narrow answers usually found in the sideboard can be good for the maindeck in the right metagame, but none are very popular at the moment. This deck can deal with having a few dead cards in any given matchup thanks to the draw engine, so metagaming with a few slots is generally acceptable.
Creatures
Full sets of Werebear and Nimble Mongoose are mandatory, but whether or not to run any beyond that is a matter of some debate. A third creature helps you in your attrition wars against control decks and the mirror match, in addition to any other benefits it might have. However, since you only need one threat to have a clock, they only get in the way of your ability to find answers against combo, and since they tend to be slow, they are not great against Goblins.
Fledgling Dragon is usually the third creature of choice, being great in the mirror (trading with Enforcer and generally flying over bears) and against slower creature-based decks like Angel Stompy and RGSA (where it dodges FTK). Its cost makes it suicidal to play against Solidarity, and it’s quite slow against Goblins.
Sea Drake is easier on the manabase than Dragon, as well as immune to graveyard removal, but worse in the mirror (not trading with Enforcer) and more vulnerable. Flametongue Kavu is great in some matchups but generally too narrow for the maindeck. Other options include Serendib Efreet, Burning Tree Shaman, and Quirion Dryad (notable for being in Labbare’s 3rd place list at GP Lille).
Lands
The manabase is dependent on the rest of the deck, but there are a few general guidelines. A total of 17-18 lands with at least 15 blue sources is the accepted standard, with more helping your consistency. Since most if not all of your threats are green, a basic Forest will be very helpful against heavy or recurring disruption. If you run Fledgling Dragon, you’ll probably want either a Mountain or a full set of Volcanic Islands to be more resilient to Wasteland (depending on the quantity of red spells in the deck and the prevalence of mana denial). Fetchlands are good for threshold and good with Brainstorm, but too many can make Predict difficult to use consistently. 6-8 is the typical range.
Sideboard
Here are a few of the more common or generally useful sideboard cards, although not nearly all of the possible choices. Note that anything discussed in the previous section but omitted (Fledgling Dragon, Pithing Needle, etc.) can be a good sideboard card.
Pyroclasm – Arguably the best anti-Goblin card for the archetype of any color. More generic than Tivadar’s Crusade (useful against RGSA, Affinity, and various other aggro decks) as well as far easier to cast. Since you only need one colored mana to play it, you don’t have to be vulnerable at all to mana denial if you’re holding a Volcanic Island.
Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast – Great against Solidarity and any blue-based control deck. You’ll rarely want to bring it in in the mirror because it’s so narrow, but if you don’t have anything else to replace any maindecked dead (or near dead) cards, it can come in.
Flametongue Kavu – For midgame creature-based decks like RGSA as well as the mirror match (though it is situational there). Probably too slow against a dedicated aggro deck, but awesome in the right matchups.
Naturalize – Gives you an out to threats you otherwise have no way to remove. Crucial against Rifter to deal with a resolved Humility, and great against equipment-based decks.
Stifle – A decent card against Goblins (hitting primarily Ringleader and Matron), Rifter (Decree of Justice), and any combo deck, as well as an answer to Crypt.
Blue Elemental Blast / Hydroblast – Decent against Goblins and Burn, but less powerful than Pyroclasm. In an average metagame, Pyroclasm is still necessary, but if burn were the primary concern, BEB could replace it (or a few copies of it).
Tormod’s Crypt – The best graveyard hate available for the mirror match, though Pithing Needle (both yours and your opponents’) can make running Furnace or a mix of the two more reliable. Graveyard hate is also good against a few more obscure decks, such as Iggy Pop and Salvagers Game.
Phyrexian Furnace – Less powerful than Crypt, but more widely applicable. Better in a few other matchups because it cycles – anywhere that graveyard hate is useful but not always necessary, and you don’t need to remove many cards (Rifter in particular). Comes in against Solidarity because it cycles and has a marginal effect. However, it tends to be worse in the mirror because it may not have an effect after the first few turns.
Winter Orb - A little less powerful than Armageddon, but used in essentially the same way (though there are a few matchups where Geddon comes in and Orb does not). Very good against Rifter or any of the other control decks that see play, but you'll need to protect it.
Matchups
I can’t give you any percentages due to the large potential for variation between decklists (in both Gro and the other decks), but I’ll try to touch on the important points and bring up relevant sideboard options. Of course, I can only offer analysis of those matchups I'm familiar with, so this is not a comprehensive guide.
Goblins
This matchup is very close, and whether or not it is favorable may depend on your build. Your best tools for stabilizing are huge creatures, so staving off death until you can get some of those in play is your first concern. Lackey shouldn’t be difficult to stop, but Vial can be problematic. Needle helps tremendously here, and thankfully Vial gives you a little bit of time to find the answer before it can drop any must-counters. Once you do establish a stalemate between their guys and yours, you’ll eventually need to be able to start swinging with enough fat on defense to prevent any alpha strikes, and you’ll be at a noticably reduced life total. This means you need to find at least two creatures and that you need have answers to an immediate threat the opponent could play. Taking care of Warchief is a priority for your burn, but you’ll want to save counters for Ringleader and Siege-Gang if you can (this is where Vial can really kill you). If all goes well (which isn’t easy because you need the correct balance of creatures, removal, and counters), they should be unable to attack without losing guys while you are free to swing in with something that they can’t kill without throwing away multiple creatures. Gempalm can be problematic in this situation; extra Needles can name it and you’ll want Mongooses on defense to be safe.
Sideboarding is difficult in this match; I favor taking out Dragon because it takes a while to come online. Furthermore, because you’ll be bringing in Pyroclasm, evasion is less necessary. Taking out draw is an option, but dangerous. Being able to chain cantrips is even more important in game two, not only because you have Pyroclasm to dig for, but also because you’re likely to see Crypt and you want to be able to recover quickly.
Your basic strategy is the same, but Pyroclasm can either stabilize by itself or turn a creature stalemate into a dominant board position. The opponent may try to cut you off of red mana, but since you only need one, it should not be difficult to play around. If you’re worried, you can often hold a Volcanic Island in hand until you need it. Once again, make sure to keep the draw engine running; dig for those Pyroclasms and don’t lose to Crypt.
Solidarity
Note: “Counters” does not include Daze unless specified.
This should be your best matchup of the upper tier. Your general strategy should be to get one or two creatures out early and then concentrate your resources on finding more blue cards (draw and counters). Pay very close attention to your hand and your mana, as well as the mana you would have with a resolved High Tide. Try to maximize the ability you have to play counters at any given time, and if playing a draw spell would cut down on this number, you may want to reconsider, especially later in the game. It is obviously more difficult for the opponent to win at the end of his turn, so you have more room with instants, but he might be able to if you walk into it. As a general rule, never play Fledgling Dragon.
When the opponent does actually make an attempt to combo, you need to decide on something to counter and be consistent. You have three major options:
A) High Tide – Generally the best choice if you can afford it because the opponent only has four in the deck, and it will be very difficult for them to carry on a counter war without it. The biggest reason not to counter Tide is that you may be able to play more counters if you let it resolve. Sometimes it’s still correct to counter it even if you end up playing one less counter overall, but often its okay to let it resolve if it helps you out.
B) Untap effects (Reset/Turnabout) – A common strategy because you’ll have access to as many counters as possible, yet the opponent will still probably not have enough mana to play all his spells. The advantages are similar to countering Tide but it is slightly less effective. However, it allows you to abuse Tide fully.
C) Draw (Meditate, possibly Flash of Insight) – Sometimes this is the best option if the opponent has too many lands in play to expect to cut him off of his threats. The biggest problem is that giving them their mana lets them play multiple Freezes. However, if you will have lethal damage before drawing a card (or if you have Stifle), it is a viable option. Be aware that they may be able to play more threats this way (particularly the expensive ones like Wish->Meditate or Remanding their own spell).
Things you should be comfortable boarding out are Fledgling Dragon, Pithing Needle, any burn, and possibly even an off-color basic. Things to consider bringing in are red blasts, Stifle, anything that draws cards, and anything that can be pitched to FoW. Your strategy doesn’t change much post-board but the opponent may have more Freezes, so be wary of letting Tide and untap spells resolve.
Gro (the mirror)
Draw spells should chain into more draw spells whenever possible so you don’t fall behind in card quality. Finding creatures should be your second priority. Any counters you end up with should hit creatures, particularly Mystic Enforcer or Fledgling Dragon because you can’t remove them easily once they resolve. This is especially important for Enforcer, because a white build will have an easier time removing your Dragons so you can’t set up a trade. Bolts should hopefully get shuffled back into the deck along with the excess lands and Pithing Needles. Daze’s usefulness varies. If your opponent ever taps out for a creature, you should probably Daze it. (On a related note, avoid tapping out for creatures.) It will more likely be used during a counter war or possibly on an early cantrip.
Against white Gro you’ll probably be at a slight disadvantage because they have Swords to Plowshares, but the matchup is still very close. Against black, your removal can hit Confidant, and should do so immediately or you risk being overwhelmed. Needle and burn are good to board out, and graveyard hate and anything that is a creature or kills a creature is a good candidate for coming in. Crypt is the most common hate to expect, and is just another reason your first priority when resolving cantrips is to find more cantrips. Black Gro may board Diabolic Edict and white Worship or Nantuko Monastery. Your general strategy won’t change.
Rifter
This matchup is difficult, and possibly unfavorable, but given the variation between Rifter lists it’s difficult to be sure. The amount of removal (especially mass removal) they have for your threats is generally the key factor. If you don’t know anything about their build, it’s usually best to play cautiously, dropping one threat at a time and focusing on keeping your draw engine running. You want your creatures to run them out of cards, but save your counters for Humility (and Abeyance protecting Humility). Eventually, if this plan works, you can ride one threat to victory, burn him out, or play multiple creatures and counter the rest of his removal (if you know you have enough counters). If you know he doesn't play much mass removal, you can try a more aggressive strategy - play multiple threats early and try to counter the little he does have.
Your biggest obstacles in depleting him of answers are Decree of Justice first and Eternal Dragon second (because it is slower and does not directly impact the board until very late in the game). Fortunately, both can be answered with Pithing Needle, though the opponent is likely to have a maindeck answer for it, which forces you to make some tough decisions – what to do with extra Needles and whether to counter Disenchant. Lightning Rift isn’t much of a problem unless it comes down very early or with Dragon online. You will also invariably lose some games because you couldn’t stop a Humility (though if the opponent is in burn range you still have a shot).
Removal and Daze are the best things to board out. Boarding out draw is once again a poor option because the game is likely to go long and you need to keep up with his removal. Things to board in include creatures, answers to Humility, Stifle, Phyrexian Furnace, and anything that can attack his lands (Winter Orb, Flashfires). There’s not much of a standard for what to expect from Rifter post-board, but Boil, Red Elemental Blast, and Tormod’s Crypt have all seen play. Your strategy doesn’t generally change except that you are more able to let Humility resolve if you have Naturalize.
_____
Note that the above is largely based on my experience with the deck, and is not necessarily correct in all cases. This thread exists for the discussion of these topics, so please feel free to add to or debate any of the things I've said here.
The old Gro thread can be found here. Many of these subjects have been discussed at length there.
Here's a sample decklist for reference and discussion, which I would recommend for a modern North American tournament (like those referenced here):
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgling Dragon
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Pithing Needle
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Island
1 Forest
The burn is kept to a minimum to avoid significantly weakening non-aggro matchups, while sixteen draw spells generally let you find removal when you need it. Fore a more aggro-heavy field, extra burn may be a good idea, and Pithing Needle could be cut in some metagames. I favor Fledgling Dragon as the tertiary creature; in most situations where it is difficult to cast, you should be boarding out the third creature anyway.
The main advantage this deck would have over a similar white list is the ability to sideboard Pyroclasm, which is not only the cheapest answer to Goblins, but a fairly versatile one (a very important quality right now in the largely unpredictable Legacy field). The most notable disadvantage would be the loss of Swords to Plowshares, which will be relevant primarily in the mirror but also against less prevalent decks like Angel Stompy and RGSA. I would play this list in an environment where Goblins is very popular but the other DTBs (particularly Gro and Solidarity) make a strong showing.
Last edited by Mad Zur; 03-09-2007 at 12:48 PM. Reason: Fixed a broken link
Originally Posted by Dr. nitewolf "Professor" 9, Ph.D.
Good job... this is a very thorough analysation of one of the best decks in the format (and yet it's still underplayed in comparision to its white brother).
I think Burning-Tree Shaman deserves a lot more attention. In my opinion, it is one of the strongest creatures that you can run in this deck... Its mana cost is much easier to support than Fledgind Dragon's, it has a great 3/4 for just three mana, and it's ability can single-handedly cripple some decks in this format.
What do you think?
Sometimes you have to read between the minds.
++ T8ing all over Europe since 2005 ++
++ Team aYb - all your base (are belong to us) ++
It's all about cheap threats. If you were to Burning-Tree Shaman, then you'd have to cut Fledgling Dragon or Werebear. Seriously, what would you cut? Also, Pithing Needle and Burning Tree Shaman work against each other.
Furthermore, your fetchlands + Burning Tree Shaman work against each other. Not to beat a dead horse, but Fledgling Dragon + Burning Tree Shaman work against each other! Having a couple of 4-cost 5/5 fliers in the form of Fledgling Dragon is much better than having a 3/4 body for 3 mana. Even Werebear and Nimble Mongoose are better threats. Werebear because it's a 4/4 and Mongoose because it can't be the target of spells or abilities.
Recently spending a whole evening testing out BTS I have come to find it's uses in the following matchups compared to Fledgling dragon spot*feel free to add if you have done any testing*:
Gobblin: Finds itslef running into chumpers consistantly, its lack of evasion makes him much less of a threat. Best attribute had to be when the board gets to a ground stall Opponents will be vialing, fetching, porting, and wastelanding you adding up pings to their face placing them in a much better range to just burn them out. In overall testing he is becoming better with the new versions of Gobbos main decking Swords/Geddons.
Rifter: Tends to be a positive choice in this match up. Even though it takes one less lightning rift activation to kill him they are taking points each time they do so *for the cylcing not the triggering of rift*. Lack of evasion doesn't matter as much unless DoJ goes off. The only set back I have found is multiple games previously I found myself tossing out a Dragon then swinging in and firebreathing for the win.
Solidarity: Positive overall. It costs less so not as much of a stress to tap out in early turns. Makes them take extra dmg from fetches.
Mirror White or Red: Negative. Only takes down Mongoose, both use same amount of fetches. Has a hard time pushing through any dmg since no evasion.
Fairie Stompy: Negative. Even though they run an Equipment arsenal it only takes one equip to stop games due to their evasion. Many of their creatures either trades or survives *besides cloud and trinket mage*.
Pikula/ BW Confidant: Positive. His low casting cost and lack of requiring double red really pushes this creature into the plus side. Larger than all but one of their creatures which are nice to see against him *shade = hatred pretty much*. Especially if they are running scroll in the main lets you kind of keep up with the race. Fetches and Wastes cost them more and you find yourself being able to burn them out in top deck mode. Since they pack swords a big body is a big body and he does the job.
The biggest problem with him is I find that most of the time you board into Needle in problem matches which contradicts most of BTS's gameplan. But as a mainboard slot I'm finding him more useful.
It's funny that the white splash is played more often, but in matchup analysis for lots of decks, they keep on saying that the red splash is a harder match... And since Legacy is right now a very wide-open format, UGR Thresh should be seeing lots more play...
As for the BTS discussion, I too don't think that it's needed... I'd rather have a flying beater that swings for 7 than a 3/4 with no evasion that pings for once or twice a turn...
The reason that UGw Thresh has been picking up in popularity is that the combo matchup is much better. It does better versus Solidarity, Nausea, Iggy Pop, Salvager Game, basically every combo. It also has a better matchup versus Angel Stompy.
The question then becomes a metagame call. If you expect more random aggro and Goblins, red Thresh is a better choice. If there's more Solidarity and other combo, the white splash is better.
On another note, whatever happened to the Magma Jet versions? Along with Brainstorm and Serum Visions, it makes Predict awesome, without having to run 16 cantrips. I never had a problem with 12 cantrips, 8 burn, 10 counters, 10 creatures, 17 lands. That leaves 3 open spots, which I used to fill with Fire/Ice, but could be Pithing Needle. It makes your curve a little bit higher, so I sometimes ran another land as well.
Is anybody running the red splash, and if so, what's your cantrip/burn/counter base looking like? With 8 or 10 burn spells, is it even necessary to run the Dragon?
I'm also wondering whether it is best to drop the Dragon. 4 mana is already tough to get, even more so when you're under Wasteland attack.
What are your experiences with an 8-creature version?
I have been using an 8-creature version, and it has been doing well... You only need one threat on the board anyway, and all the draw and library manipulation make sure that you get it... Burn also helps with reach, so I believe that the red splash has the viability of running only 8 creatures...
I still run wastedlife's old version of UGr ThreshGro. I just ran it because it ran a lot of burn and doesnt really run out on fuel around midgame.
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"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
If you wanted to keep a flying beater, Serendib Efreet is still an option. His mana is much easier to acquire than dragon's, he comes down earlier, and can be pitched to FoW.
-Steve
How come it needs to be a holiday to bang noobslayer's sister?
Ok, although Fledgling Dragon might not seem all that hot due to it's high cc and the fact that often times your mana base is attacked, it is still crucial to the deck in my mind. Just running 8 creatures seems way to risky, and the deck is just asking for trouble with that low of a creature count with no bombs. Dragon can end a game, literally. With threshold, this thing is a bomb. I definetely believe that this card is very necessary in this deck. And if your mana base is under fire, with so many cantrips and such, finding land shouldn't be an impossible task. If you use Dragon correctly, it can be huge.
Team Unicorn- "I'm Horny."
"The Wandering One" of Legacy.
"Glimmervoid, Go."
I agree that using a late game beater is better than only 8 creatures, I ran a pretty basic list last night in a tournement and all too often in the late game I struggled to get those last points of damage in because I was only running 8 creatures. I'm not sure if the Dragon or Quirion Dryad is the right choice, but this deck definatly needs a late game creature.
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Last edited by Nightmare; 08-14-2006 at 07:13 AM.
... In my opinion, Dragon is far superior to Dryad.. it's almost a no brainer. Would you like a big flyer with firebreathing or some tiny 1/1 that grows when you play spells?? I mean come on, especially if you are talking about late game beats, Fledgling dragon is far superior to Dryad.
Team Unicorn- "I'm Horny."
"The Wandering One" of Legacy.
"Glimmervoid, Go."
Wait...was this in the debate? I thought dryad had been ditched some time ago for dragon, sea drake, or my personal favorite--Serendeb efritti.
MadZur: In the last dual land draft (in 'cuse), were you running the 8 creature version, or the 10 version? I remember playing you first round and seeing nothing in 3 games but mongeese and bears.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
There is also the option of Isochron Scepter. It's not that popular right now, but if you look on the first post of this thread, it has posted results. I brought such a build (2x Scepters in my "9-10x Creature slot") and went 4-0. It was a smaller tourney... ~15 people(?) I ended up playing a newb and 3 Goblins. As you guys know, R splash thresh beats gobs. With scepter, OWNS gobs.
It makes you even more vunerable to Pernicious deed, but you don't see too much of that anymore. It makes people SB in some Pithing Needles which a pretty dead. I had 2x Dragons in my SB, but never SBed them in. But then again, I got pretty lucky parings.
Just my 2 cents.
Team Drain Bamaged
Even running 10 creatures, it's quite common to rarely play the finisher. With all the of selection inherent in the cantrip base run, it's farely easy to avoid the finisher if he would simply be overkill. I would certainly not say that Fledgling Dragon is useless, and there are some games that he pulls you out of the same way that Enforcer does in the white splash, but I wonder if he is not simply a crutch. Would the spot be better for cards like Fire/Ice that serve a purpose early game, and go to the head later on? I don't know how many situations arise wherein Fledgling Dragon is crucial and you couldn't have avoided the situation with better play earlier in the match.
As for Quirion Dryad, the main reason for me not to run her is that she made me do things with the deck that I shouldn't have done. Whenever she's out, you naturally want to grow her just for the sake of growing her, when sometimes it is a much better idea to hold back your spells, and I found that I made a lot more play mistakes unwittingly while she was in play. I feel like this is because she doesn't fit the plan of the deck as well as it may at first seem. She seems more aggro than I wanted to be most of the time, and Werebear was usually just better. Then again, I've only ever tested her in that spot.
QFT. You hit the nail on the head Lego, If I were running Dryad in this build, I too would play spells just for the sake of pumping the Dryad. On to the topic of Isochron Scepter. I have always loved scepter, being a former Scepter Chant player myself, but I'm not sure if it belongs in this deck. Yeah it would be sweet to have Scepter out in alot of matchups, but is it really worth the slots over those 2 finishing creatures?? I myself am not a Threshold player, but I would be interested to see what people think.
Team Unicorn- "I'm Horny."
"The Wandering One" of Legacy.
"Glimmervoid, Go."
Hey Guys,
This is my first post on the source, so hi to everyone.
I have been lurking on this forum for the past two years but never posted.
I have been a UGR thresh player for the past year or so. I've always played the Dragon in the finisher slots but recently decided to try the Scepter. I tried it at the Canadian Legacy Championship and it was a bomb. Against heavy control you imprint a counterspell, Ice can help you deal with a large creature and give you card advantage, Fire...duh...I guess it's pretty good for just about any situation... Anyways you get the idea. Don't get me wrong the dragon is ok, but rather easy to deal with, the Scepter surpises many players and forces them to board in artifact hate.
I came in 10th at the Canadian Champ. with this deck not making top 8 on bad tie breaker.
Member of team punishment.
Grounding "N" Pounding Canadian legacy players since 2004.
War GSP!
Welcome to the source The Marco, congrats on your near finish in T8 at the Canadian Championships. I'm still in a toss-up over which is better, Fledgling Dragon or Isochron Scepter.. both are just soo juicy in the deck.... I see your success with scepter, yet in any of your matchups, did you wish those sticks were big fat Flegdling Dragons???
Team Unicorn- "I'm Horny."
"The Wandering One" of Legacy.
"Glimmervoid, Go."
Thanks Shady,
First off,
Let me start with the decklist I used for the tournament :
3- Flooded Strand
4- Wooded Foothills
4- Volcanic
4- Tropical
1- ISland
1- Mountain
1- Forest
4- Werebear
4- Mongoose
4- Fire/Ice
4- Lightning Bolt
2- Magma Jet
4- Predict
4- Brainstorm
4- Serum
4- FOW
3- Daze
3- Counterspell
2- Isochron
SB:
3- Pyroblast
2- Pyroclasm
2- Rolling Earthquake
3- Pithing Needle
2- Tromod Crypt
3- Naturalize
To answer your question, it did not happen during the tournament that I drew a Scepter and i wished it was a Dragon but I can see your point, since it did happen in testing a few times. I used to play only one copy of the scepter and one dragon... that might be the way to go. If they don't see your scepter game 1 they do not bring in hate. The only problems I had with the Scepter was drawing it late and not casting right it away for lack of good spells to imprint. But every time I casted it people jaws hit the floor for lack of answer to it.
And yes I do realize that my sideboard needs some tuning after the recent pick up in popularity of combo decks.
Member of team punishment.
Grounding "N" Pounding Canadian legacy players since 2004.
War GSP!
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