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Thread: [Deck] The Rock - Adapted to Legacy

  1. #1
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    [Deck] The Rock - Adapted to Legacy

    Well...the old TheRock thread seemed to be a bit confused.
    I started some riot there (sorry for that) and now Zilly ordered me to start a new thread.
    The reason i am so selfconfident about my opinions upon the deck and the choices of that list is that TheRock is a DTB in my area and my team has won several tournaments with lists very close to this one, winning against Goblins as well as WUBS/Landstill several times. Of course that list will have to be adapted to your metagame ... so it is meant more as a hint on what the deck's idea is all about, which the old thread is lacking.

    The main points of criticism about the old thread's list and approach to the deck's theme in general were:

    1. Volrath's Stronghold
    Why in heaven and hell don't you want to run this thing and win games with it? This is a lot faster than than Genesis.
    Genesis may be Plowshares or simply removed from the yard.
    I also may have missed your way to discard it. You are not really going to cast it, are you?
    There is Wasteland, yes. But with WoB, Elder etc. you draw into more lands than Landstill itself. So having to witness it out is not that bad at all compared with the immense downsides of Genesis.

    2. Why do about three quarter of you guys want to run Wall of Roots? Cause you play that huge load of instants?
    You could discuss Wine Trellis, but i would prefer drawing a card anyday.
    Making slow but consistend CA and having 12 excellent targets for Stronghold is what makes the deck breathe in Legacy. Deed is a nice inclusion but it isn't the point of the deck.

    3. Why are you that fond of Troll Ascetic? There is no deck in Legacy where it is as useless as here. You play a sweeper yourself - so where is the point about untouchability?
    It may regenerate, yes...but the deck does not need this. You can simply cast new beats or fetch them fromthe yard.
    Investing that much mana in a 3/2 is not the best TheRock can do.

    4. Why in heaven and hell do you wnat to play any less than 4 Yavimaya Elder? Elder + Therapy is what makes so many control and aggrocontrol decks loose.

    I also addressed some recurring discussions in that old thread:

    1. Manlands
    Imo you may play Factory, you may play Village, or you may simply skip it. To me it did never seem all the important.
    Manlands are of no gread use against Landstill or ZillaStompy - they will be simply burned or wasted. They do some good against things like Gro. I personally would run 2 Villages, but i do not believe it matters and is worth the energy you put into that discussion.

    2. Sakura-Tribe Elder
    ...is junk and far inferior to birds and Yavimaya Elder.
    He is weak and has no synergy with Therapy. Usually you have enough stuff to keep your enemies at bay long enough to drop your lands the old fashioned way.

    3. Wish targets
    Living Wish is good. Good means it is the only useful Tutor available. There are 5 essential Wish targets
    -Volrath's Stronghold #3 or 4
    -Wasteland
    -random fetchland
    -Viridian Zealot
    -Withered Wretch (if not played MD)
    In addition you may Wish random fat in addition. But i doubt having a Wish target for every more or less possible matchup is not the way to go. Actually boaring things like Tsunami, Plague or Naturalize is more important imo.

    I would actually play like this in what i know as an "american" meta (containing UwLandstill, VialGolblins, SA, Solidarity, Zompy, Fish, Gro):

    4x Birds of Paradise
    4x Wall of Blossoms
    4x Yavimaya Elder
    4x Eternal Witness
    4x Ravenous Baloth

    4x Duress
    4x Cabal Therapy
    2x Diabolic Edict
    4x Pernicous Deed
    4x Living Wish
    1x Haunting Echoes / Volrath's Sronghold

    2x Volrath's Stronghold
    2x Treetop Village / Forest
    4x Bayou
    8x Forest
    5x Swamp

    SB:
    3x Tsunami
    3x Naturalize
    2x Gaea's Blessing
    1x Volrath's Stronghold
    1x Wasteland
    1x Bloodstained Mire
    1x Spiritmonger
    1x Viridian Zealot
    1x Viridian Shaman
    1x Withered Wretch

    Of course there are other SB Options. Cranial Extraction is possible, as is Engineered Plague (though i doubt the need for it (compared with Tsunami, Naturalize and Blessing).
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  2. #2
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    I'm no expert...but it seems like 2xDiabolic Edict is not enough. I'm sure some other people might question that decision, so could you explain that?

    And what do you think about Putrefy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KrzyMoose
    I'm no expert...but it seems like 2xDiabolic Edict is not enough. I'm sure some other people might question that decision, so could you explain that?

    And what do you think about Putrefy?
    1. I have no idea what "putrefy" is. I only know "purify" ...which is white...and sucks.

    2. What exactly do you want to edict?
    Gro has huge trouble with Discard and Deed. Until it can stabilize, you may as well Wish for Monger and win. But you are right when it is for Gro though. Some people around here play less Wishes and up to four edicts in fear of Stifle and Mage in Gro Decks. UW's Eternal Dragon is a joke against TheRock. Until that point of the game they have either found a solution for Stronghold on the one hand and Witness+Therapy on the other...or will simply loose to your mechanics of advantage that may then very well race 5/5 evasion. If it's for Factories...well block them. If it's for Conclaves...be happy they tap out that much.
    WUBS is another topic. If they have Angel running, you are in trouble. But i thought that deck was not very popular in the US...so...
    Their is no reason to want Edicts for aggro. Casting a blocker is better any day - no matter if you want Deed set off next turn or not.
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  4. #4
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    Putrefy is one of the spoiled cards from Ravnica that's been discussed quite a bit on this forum. At 1BG it destroys either a creature or an artifact and can't be regenerated.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by TorpidNinja
    Putrefy is one of the spoiled cards from Ravnica that's been discussed quite a bit on this forum. At 1BG it destroys either a creature or an artifact and can't be regenerated.
    Well...it has to be tested.
    ...ah...i see...it is an instant, so it may be in.
    Being able to destroy an artifact is very desired. CoW and Shackles or often sources of ruin if the WUBS/UW-Landstill player manages to back up...
    Team Weathermen
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimberley
    I would actually play like this in what i know as an "american" meta (containing UwLandstill, VialGolblins, SA, Solidarity, Zompy, Fish, Gro):
    Kimberley,

    Your list is a breath of fresh air, the old thread was agrivating to say the least, there were more decklists than constructive criticism. Your list is much more streamlined than others I have seen and I especially like the use of the stronghold as a way of generating card advantage.

    I just want to make a couple of suggestions to the wish targets (or rather requst why they are not included)

    Dustbowl vs. Wasteland

    why?

    ink-eyes:

    He is better than Spirit Monger in most situations IMO.

    Nekratal(sorry for spelling)

    He has always been an efficient target, even at 4cc.

    thanks,

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  7. #7

    BoP has HORRIBLE synergy with Pernicious Deeds!!

    I have tested with both Birds of Paradise and Sakura-Tribe Elders and found that the STEs are the way to go. I run a playset of both Yavimaya Elders and Sakura-Tribe Elders and found that it works much more consistent that the Birds.

  8. #8
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    @Happy Gilmore

    I have to concede: We put not much energy in our wish boards, cause we found ourselves regularly wishing for either artifact removal or wasteland or stronghold out of pure boredom. In fact in our forum living wish is doubted to some extend.
    your suggestions are very good.

    Ink-Eyes is better than monger in most aspects. More mana is needed and color cannot be changed, which is only relevant against gro. Monger's counters are usually irrelevant.

    Dust bowl is good, but i would not like to remove wasteland due to its lower cost. If you find enough room when tuning for your meta it may be absolutely possible (and desireable) to play both.

    The only suggestion i do not like that much is nekrataal. with wish it costs 6. At the point where you want nekrataal as a wish target you may as well consider cutting a wish or two for edicts (or smother if you like 'em) in the MD.

    I really have to thank you. your productive and friendly attitude is rare here. :)

    @jeska
    Your point about BoP <-> deed is right observed on its own.
    But the synergy with Therapy and birds pure speed outweight this by a lot.
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  9. #9
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    Kimberley, Have you given any thought to Putrefy, perhaps in the Edict slot?

  10. #10
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    Kimberley, Have you given any thought to Putrefy, perhaps in the Edict slot?
    Putrefy is one of the spoiled cards from Ravnica that's been discussed quite a bit on this forum. At 1BG it destroys either a creature or an artifact and can't be regenerated.
    Well...it has to be tested.
    ...ah...i see...it is an instant, so it may be in.
    Being able to destroy an artifact is very desired. CoW and Shackles or often sources of ruin if the WUBS/UW-Landstill player manages to back up...
    Team Weathermen
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  11. #11
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    Putrefy should be a 3-4 of maindeck, unless you are in a meta infested with Solidarity (which should be a decent matchup for the deck considering the amount of discard). Sak Elder is vastly superior to Birds of Paradise at the moment for the following reasons.

    Blocks Goblin Lackey & trades (or sucks out removal)
    Bop does not
    On a related note, Sak Elder deals damage
    Bop fluffs it's feathers threateningly, bluffing Might of
    Oaks...
    Laughs at STP & gets a land, ramping you up
    Bop cries like a small child
    Wrath...see also STP (and include sweeper of your choice - Vengeance, Disk, Decree, Deed - whatever...)
    Bop still sobbing.....and we RUN Deed!
    Slightly increases the odds of drawing into non-land stuff - minor point, but the percentages do add up, especially if being returned via Stronghold/Witness, whatever
    Bop does not (again, an admmitedly minor point)
    Against pure combo, Sak.Elder can be dispatched to Therapy with no less benefit (and no more, admittedly) than Bop, however, they happen the same way, really. Turn 1 Therapy, Turn 2 critter-flash. Unless you go Turn 1 Bop, Turn 2 Therapy & Duress - but what are the odds of that happening all that often? You really want Turn 1 Duress if you expect combo (or control....), the critters don't start landing til Turn 2-3 anyway.
    TL,DR: if you think Saito is ok, check your moral compass. It may be broken. - Spikey Mikey, amen brother

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrumdogg
    Against pure combo, Sak.Elder can be dispatched to Therapy with no less benefit (and no more, admittedly) than Bop, however, they happen the same way, really.
    Not really true. First, saccing Birds to Therapy will typically net you an additional mana, which can be very important tempo-wise in early development. Second, you can sac Birds to Therapy a full turn earlier than Elder, which can be vital in the combo matchup.

    I agree with most of the rest of what you said though. Although to be fair, Elder can't block a turn 1 Lackey when you're on the draw, where Birds can. This can be relevant, since Lackey's only truly effective on turn 1 in most cases.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodzillA
    Quote Originally Posted by scrumdogg
    Against pure combo, Sak.Elder can be dispatched to Therapy with no less benefit (and no more, admittedly) than Bop, however, they happen the same way, really.
    Not really true. First, saccing Birds to Therapy will typically net you an additional mana, which can be very important tempo-wise in early development. Second, you can sac Birds to Therapy a full turn earlier than Elder, which can be vital in the combo matchup.

    I agree with most of the rest of what you said though. Although to be fair, Elder can't block a turn 1 Lackey when you're on the draw, where Birds can. This can be relevant, since Lackey's only truly effective on turn 1 in most cases.
    All right, I can concede the combo based point (although this is precisely the deck combo really doesn't want to see sitting across from them anyway...). If a Turn 1 drop is that important, wouldn't Elves of Deep Shadow be superior for all the reasons mentioned in defense of both Sak Elder and BoP?

    Turn 1 Lackey when they are on the play is scary, but this deck runs Deed, the goblin nightmare...don't we almost want them to overextend into it? And at that point, Sak Elder does a fine job, blocking something scary & ramping mana. I have been running Plague Spitters in all of my nearly mono-blcak & green-black test builds. They have been very very good to me against goblins. Although they kill Witnesses & Sak Elders etc etc, those cards still come into play and accomplish something (and then die) but that would be the case versus goblins anyway.....
    TL,DR: if you think Saito is ok, check your moral compass. It may be broken. - Spikey Mikey, amen brother

    WE know what the price of progress is (often 8-10 life). - Cait Sith

    A casual stasis deck? You must not really like your friends. Do you play it before or after you pull the wings off of flys and microwave the neighbor's cat? - EwokSlayer

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrumdogg
    All right, I can concede the combo based point (although this is precisely the deck combo really doesn't want to see sitting across from them anyway...).
    Is this true? As far as I can tell, the main reason the archetype is worth consideration is because it has the ability to beat combo with Duress, Therapy, and Echoes while maintaining game against aggro and control. If it can't beat Solidarity, etc., it seems like a dedicated aggro or control deck would be the better choice.

    If a Turn 1 drop is that important, wouldn't Elves of Deep Shadow be superior for all the reasons mentioned in defense of both Sak Elder and BoP?
    If it produced green mana, I'd say yes. Considering the number of GG cc's in the deck, however, I think Deep Shadow's limitation is likely to be significant.

  15. #15
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    Oh...

    I guess i did leave some room for misunderstanding.
    The reason to play this deck is not combo.
    We did not test it much versus either Belcher or Solidarity, but we are pretty sure it sucks. Discard is nice in theory, but the problem is that Baloth is the only relevant clock you can present. If you cannot reuse your discard spells or draw new ones by pure chance Combo will laugh about it.
    That's why most SB slots are dedicated towards the combo decks (Tsunami and Naturalize are useful in many other respects though).

    The reason to play TheRock is smashing aggro. Test it against Goblins! You will see, that TheRock is much better equipped in respects of CA and attrition than Goblins. They will get a fair amount of damage done, conceded, but TheRock will usually stabilize and kill Goblins with its control funktions and fatties.
    And it is even more evil towards other aggro. MonoW for example gets utterly slaughtered by TheRock. Armageddon simply is their only chance for winning.
    On the other hand control Matchups are not that bad.
    Scepter Chant is bad for sure, but Landstill has severe problems with discard and TheRocks CA tools.
    It is exactly there, where Birds shine. 2nd turn Yavi Elder or 3rd Witness + Discard is huge. Gro has severe problems with deed, discard and stronghold. In fact Gro normally has to play beatdown, which is not good for a deck that has its best chance with Mages and Needles. Countering things against TheRock is like throwing your cards into a bottomless vault.
    Of course you often have trouble against control decks cause they have better manipulation tools, while you often draw things not wanted in a specific situation and you have to sit and wait doing nothing for exactly half the game (ot). Thats why most SB cards and WB targets too can be used against control (and why i don't recommend SB Plagues).
    Against Survival based tactics TheRock is usually performing fairly well too.

    In short:
    TheRock against aggro: very strong
    TheRock against control: fair
    TheRock against combo: sucks
    Team Weathermen
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  16. #16
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    8 spot discard spells do not create a reliable anti-Solidarity game. You have to draw at least 3 of them (or get a particularly devastating Therapy) to create enough time to kill them.

    Boarding probably helps quite a bit, though. Opening with a few discard spells should pave the way for Tsunami to wreck them. Persecute might be better though.

    EDIT: kimberley covered my points in more detail than I did before I did it. Oh well.




    Edited By Obfuscate Freely on 1125709240
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    What are regrets?

  17. #17

    My impressions when playing this deck :

    1- It happens occasionally that you sit there for multiple turns drawing nothing important. This scares me a lot as your opponent may come up with a win card any draw. More card draw seems to be the answer or getting more cards reused from your graveyard.
    This brings me to point 2.

    2- The deck could do a better job at trying to reuse the Witness more often.
    Currently the only ways of getting Witness in the graveyard are
    A- letting her die in combat (not very reliable)
    B- saccing her to a Therapy but that removes the therapy from the game, which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid.
    C- eliminate her with a Deed.

    IMO an excellent card to wish for would be Phyrexian Tower

    Sac Witness to the Tower, adding BB to your mana pool in the process, which can be used to pay for the Stronghold activation and put her back on top of your library, so in essence you're just tapping two lands, the Tower and the Stronghold to get the Witness from play back on top of your library.
    This makes the mechanic very cheap and a duress or Therapy EVERY TURN quite possible, if wanted.

    Minor detail, but nevertheless important, A Phyrexian Tower helps your Witnesses evade StP.

    A Witness which shows up every turn is probably game, Phyrexian Tower can help you do that.

    Plague Spitter was mentioned here as well, and that would be another nice alternative to get the Witness into the graveyard. However, a Plaguespitter in play may limit your options too much with your other critters in play though, we'll have to try that before getting an aswer I guess.

    From the original decklist, these are my suggestions :

    -1 Living wish
    +1 Phyrexian Tower (+ a Tower in the Wishboard, instead of the Viridian Shaman)

    -4 Birds of Paradise (can't operate under Plaguespitter)
    +4 Sakura Tribe Elder

    +1 Plaguespitter to the wishboard instead of ...?

    -2 Diabolic Edict
    -1 Haunting Echoes (very nice but not always needed IMO)
    +3 Putrefy

  18. #18
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    As much as I appreciate using newer/rumoured cards as soon as possible, I feel they derail the thread somewhat. Those cards seem fine for future consideration but what's the use of suggesting them now since they're not going to be legal for quite a while.

    How does that help someone at their tournament next week when you talk about cards that are months away?

    The other side of this is that, considering the heavy B/G theme of Ravnica, there's a good chance there will be something the actually revolutionizes the archetype. While this decklist is pretty streamlined it's more or less the Extended version minus Vampiric ultility mainboard and plus a better sideboard. I don't mean that to offend; that's not even a bad thing.

    Simply put, however, there seems little point in switching out established cards for rumoured cards just yet until we at least have the full spoiler and can establish if whether or not the deck needs a full overhaul.

  19. #19
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    Most everyone is focused 2 months in the future, squarely on Philadelphia. Furthermore, with Ravnica likely making a large number of new options available (to the entire format) and it being legal in play about 6 weeks from now, it is appropriate to discuss it, imho. Mtgsalvation (and rancored_elf) have been very very good about getting accurate spoiler information. Onviously, until the information is confirmed we run with what we have available, but waiting until Sept 24 to discuss cards and Oct 20 to play them is unnecessarily restrictive.

    Phyrexian Tower is a great call, as recurring Witnesses (with anything worthwhile in the yard) is what the deck wants to do (wreck your opponent...). With Tower & Stronghold, those are the only two cards needed to use Stronghold (although you need 3 other lands to cast Witness every turn and at least 1 more to cast Therapy/Duress/whatever...that is a serious amount of land, which makes Yav & Sak Elders important to this plan....).

    I wasn't implying the deck as an autowin versus combo, especially Solidarity. But we have discard, we have ways to recur it, and possibly longterm ways to recur it (see above...). Furthermore, we have the ability to sideboard into serious, effective hate (although that option is up to the individual deckbuilder...). On that note, Haunting Echoes should definitely stay in the deck. It is the mid-late game "Ooops, I win" card.

    What black & green creatures have a land destruction element to them, if any, other than Demonic Hordes? Given that people are using the Wish version of the deck & LD hurts Solidarity and Landstill (and Rabid Wombat, if Humility is removed from the equation)...how can we abuse this further?
    TL,DR: if you think Saito is ok, check your moral compass. It may be broken. - Spikey Mikey, amen brother

    WE know what the price of progress is (often 8-10 life). - Cait Sith

    A casual stasis deck? You must not really like your friends. Do you play it before or after you pull the wings off of flys and microwave the neighbor's cat? - EwokSlayer

  20. #20
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    The Rock is a Meta Game adapting deck. In this case, it should be built, countering our meta. In this case, we should add Red...
    And Red gives me RBE/Pyroblast, Sirocco, and Terminate.
    Giving us a chance against Solidarity and Landstill...
    I'll look into Putrefy later...

    // Only built for my Meta
    // Lands 22
    4 Wasteland
    4 Wooded Foothills
    2 Volrath's Stronghold
    2 Taiga
    4 Bayou
    2 Forest
    2 Swamp
    2 Mountain


    // Creatures 18
    4 Birds of Paradise
    4 Sakura~Tribe Elder
    3 Eternal Witness
    3 Ravenous Baloth
    3 Flametongue Kavu
    1 Genesis


    // Spells 21
    3 Living Wish
    4 Terminate
    4 Duress
    4 Cabal Therapy
    2 Cranial Extraction
    4 Pernicious Deed


    // Sideboard 15
    1 Flametongue Kavu
    1 Ravenous Baloth
    1 Genesis
    1 Troll Ascentic
    1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
    1 Viridian Zealot
    1 Masticore
    1 Dust Bowl
    1 Withered Wretch
    4 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Pyroblast
    ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.


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