Well...the old TheRock thread seemed to be a bit confused.
I started some riot there (sorry for that) and now Zilly ordered me to start a new thread.
The reason i am so selfconfident about my opinions upon the deck and the choices of that list is that TheRock is a DTB in my area and my team has won several tournaments with lists very close to this one, winning against Goblins as well as WUBS/Landstill several times. Of course that list will have to be adapted to your metagame ... so it is meant more as a hint on what the deck's idea is all about, which the old thread is lacking.
The main points of criticism about the old thread's list and approach to the deck's theme in general were:
1. Volrath's Stronghold
Why in heaven and hell don't you want to run this thing and win games with it? This is a lot faster than than Genesis.
Genesis may be Plowshares or simply removed from the yard.
I also may have missed your way to discard it. You are not really going to cast it, are you?
There is Wasteland, yes. But with WoB, Elder etc. you draw into more lands than Landstill itself. So having to witness it out is not that bad at all compared with the immense downsides of Genesis.
2. Why do about three quarter of you guys want to run Wall of Roots? Cause you play that huge load of instants?
You could discuss Wine Trellis, but i would prefer drawing a card anyday.
Making slow but consistend CA and having 12 excellent targets for Stronghold is what makes the deck breathe in Legacy. Deed is a nice inclusion but it isn't the point of the deck.
3. Why are you that fond of Troll Ascetic? There is no deck in Legacy where it is as useless as here. You play a sweeper yourself - so where is the point about untouchability?
It may regenerate, yes...but the deck does not need this. You can simply cast new beats or fetch them fromthe yard.
Investing that much mana in a 3/2 is not the best TheRock can do.
4. Why in heaven and hell do you wnat to play any less than 4 Yavimaya Elder? Elder + Therapy is what makes so many control and aggrocontrol decks loose.
I also addressed some recurring discussions in that old thread:
1. Manlands
Imo you may play Factory, you may play Village, or you may simply skip it. To me it did never seem all the important.
Manlands are of no gread use against Landstill or ZillaStompy - they will be simply burned or wasted. They do some good against things like Gro. I personally would run 2 Villages, but i do not believe it matters and is worth the energy you put into that discussion.
2. Sakura-Tribe Elder
...is junk and far inferior to birds and Yavimaya Elder.
He is weak and has no synergy with Therapy. Usually you have enough stuff to keep your enemies at bay long enough to drop your lands the old fashioned way.
3. Wish targets
Living Wish is good. Good means it is the only useful Tutor available. There are 5 essential Wish targets
-Volrath's Stronghold #3 or 4
-Wasteland
-random fetchland
-Viridian Zealot
-Withered Wretch (if not played MD)
In addition you may Wish random fat in addition. But i doubt having a Wish target for every more or less possible matchup is not the way to go. Actually boaring things like Tsunami, Plague or Naturalize is more important imo.
I would actually play like this in what i know as an "american" meta (containing UwLandstill, VialGolblins, SA, Solidarity, Zompy, Fish, Gro):
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Wall of Blossoms
4x Yavimaya Elder
4x Eternal Witness
4x Ravenous Baloth
4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Diabolic Edict
4x Pernicous Deed
4x Living Wish
1x Haunting Echoes / Volrath's Sronghold
2x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Treetop Village / Forest
4x Bayou
8x Forest
5x Swamp
SB:
3x Tsunami
3x Naturalize
2x Gaea's Blessing
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Wasteland
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Spiritmonger
1x Viridian Zealot
1x Viridian Shaman
1x Withered Wretch
Of course there are other SB Options. Cranial Extraction is possible, as is Engineered Plague (though i doubt the need for it (compared with Tsunami, Naturalize and Blessing).
Team Weathermen
we shake our heads as your tables turn - they'll always turn - and you will never burn
that's the real promise: you'll never burn
you get the lies - we get the fire
I'm no expert...but it seems like 2xDiabolic Edict is not enough. I'm sure some other people might question that decision, so could you explain that?
And what do you think about Putrefy?
1. I have no idea what "putrefy" is. I only know "purify" ...which is white...and sucks.Originally Posted by KrzyMoose
2. What exactly do you want to edict?
Gro has huge trouble with Discard and Deed. Until it can stabilize, you may as well Wish for Monger and win. But you are right when it is for Gro though. Some people around here play less Wishes and up to four edicts in fear of Stifle and Mage in Gro Decks. UW's Eternal Dragon is a joke against TheRock. Until that point of the game they have either found a solution for Stronghold on the one hand and Witness+Therapy on the other...or will simply loose to your mechanics of advantage that may then very well race 5/5 evasion. If it's for Factories...well block them. If it's for Conclaves...be happy they tap out that much.
WUBS is another topic. If they have Angel running, you are in trouble. But i thought that deck was not very popular in the US...so...
Their is no reason to want Edicts for aggro. Casting a blocker is better any day - no matter if you want Deed set off next turn or not.
Team Weathermen
we shake our heads as your tables turn - they'll always turn - and you will never burn
that's the real promise: you'll never burn
you get the lies - we get the fire
By adding white you also make yourself more vulnerable to... Goblins!
And you sacrifice the ability to have a consistent and stable enough mana base to play Wasteland, which adds a whole new dimension to the deck.
If you have to have a Swords available to kill a Lackey to win anyways you're in pretty tough shape to begin with.
Ravenous Baloth accomplishes the same thing as Hierarch without ruining your mana.
As far as Gaea's Blessing goes, people have been thinking too defensively about how to defeat combo decks. The card I'm using kills them for trying to go off and makes it so trying to get rid of the problem becomes so costly to their life total that even a single hit from a Troll/Witness or Baloth with this card on the table essentially spells doom for them.
Your fortune for the day:
Your death will be so violent and protracted that the police will let your family down easy by telling them you were sodomized in half by a horse.
With the addition of Damnation to black, I think a version of the rock that's closer to truffle shuffle, but without White, can be quite competitive.
Would that need to be discussed on a seperate thread though?
I think a rockdeck with damnation, less creatures and more truffleshuffle-aimed, would be the right call.
@ keys: I don't get the Orim's Chant in your deck. You don't have Isochron scepter and you don't have a clock in this deck to make chant usefull. You can't lock your opponent with it. It's better to run discard or something else against combo.
chant played against solidarity can stop them from comboing out if played right, such as in response to thier casting of high tide.. you're forcing them to either be holding a force, or waste a hight tide and a land. also, against many other decks, chant is a time walk.
Team ICBE - We're so good at playing Threshold, we don't even play it.
Team Keg Stand - If only the kegs weren't empty...
Putrefy is one of the spoiled cards from Ravnica that's been discussed quite a bit on this forum. At 1BG it destroys either a creature or an artifact and can't be regenerated.
Well...it has to be tested.
...ah...i see...it is an instant, so it may be in.
Being able to destroy an artifact is very desired. CoW and Shackles or often sources of ruin if the WUBS/UW-Landstill player manages to back up...
Team Weathermen
we shake our heads as your tables turn - they'll always turn - and you will never burn
that's the real promise: you'll never burn
you get the lies - we get the fire
Kimberley,
Your list is a breath of fresh air, the old thread was agrivating to say the least, there were more decklists than constructive criticism. Your list is much more streamlined than others I have seen and I especially like the use of the stronghold as a way of generating card advantage.
I just want to make a couple of suggestions to the wish targets (or rather requst why they are not included)
Dustbowl vs. Wasteland
why?
ink-eyes:
He is better than Spirit Monger in most situations IMO.
Nekratal(sorry for spelling)
He has always been an efficient target, even at 4cc.
thanks,
Happy Hunting
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
BoP has HORRIBLE synergy with Pernicious Deeds!!
I have tested with both Birds of Paradise and Sakura-Tribe Elders and found that the STEs are the way to go. I run a playset of both Yavimaya Elders and Sakura-Tribe Elders and found that it works much more consistent that the Birds.
@Happy Gilmore
I have to concede: We put not much energy in our wish boards, cause we found ourselves regularly wishing for either artifact removal or wasteland or stronghold out of pure boredom. In fact in our forum living wish is doubted to some extend.
your suggestions are very good.
Ink-Eyes is better than monger in most aspects. More mana is needed and color cannot be changed, which is only relevant against gro. Monger's counters are usually irrelevant.
Dust bowl is good, but i would not like to remove wasteland due to its lower cost. If you find enough room when tuning for your meta it may be absolutely possible (and desireable) to play both.
The only suggestion i do not like that much is nekrataal. with wish it costs 6. At the point where you want nekrataal as a wish target you may as well consider cutting a wish or two for edicts (or smother if you like 'em) in the MD.
I really have to thank you. your productive and friendly attitude is rare here. :)
@jeska
Your point about BoP <-> deed is right observed on its own.
But the synergy with Therapy and birds pure speed outweight this by a lot.
Team Weathermen
we shake our heads as your tables turn - they'll always turn - and you will never burn
that's the real promise: you'll never burn
you get the lies - we get the fire
Kimberley, Have you given any thought to Putrefy, perhaps in the Edict slot?
Kimberley, Have you given any thought to Putrefy, perhaps in the Edict slot?Well...it has to be tested.Putrefy is one of the spoiled cards from Ravnica that's been discussed quite a bit on this forum. At 1BG it destroys either a creature or an artifact and can't be regenerated.
...ah...i see...it is an instant, so it may be in.
Being able to destroy an artifact is very desired. CoW and Shackles or often sources of ruin if the WUBS/UW-Landstill player manages to back up...
Team Weathermen
we shake our heads as your tables turn - they'll always turn - and you will never burn
that's the real promise: you'll never burn
you get the lies - we get the fire
Putrefy should be a 3-4 of maindeck, unless you are in a meta infested with Solidarity (which should be a decent matchup for the deck considering the amount of discard). Sak Elder is vastly superior to Birds of Paradise at the moment for the following reasons.
Blocks Goblin Lackey & trades (or sucks out removal)
Bop does not
On a related note, Sak Elder deals damage
Bop fluffs it's feathers threateningly, bluffing Might of
Oaks...
Laughs at STP & gets a land, ramping you up
Bop cries like a small child
Wrath...see also STP (and include sweeper of your choice - Vengeance, Disk, Decree, Deed - whatever...)
Bop still sobbing.....and we RUN Deed!
Slightly increases the odds of drawing into non-land stuff - minor point, but the percentages do add up, especially if being returned via Stronghold/Witness, whatever
Bop does not (again, an admmitedly minor point)
Against pure combo, Sak.Elder can be dispatched to Therapy with no less benefit (and no more, admittedly) than Bop, however, they happen the same way, really. Turn 1 Therapy, Turn 2 critter-flash. Unless you go Turn 1 Bop, Turn 2 Therapy & Duress - but what are the odds of that happening all that often? You really want Turn 1 Duress if you expect combo (or control....), the critters don't start landing til Turn 2-3 anyway.
TL,DR: if you think Saito is ok, check your moral compass. It may be broken. - Spikey Mikey, amen brother
WE know what the price of progress is (often 8-10 life). - Cait Sith
A casual stasis deck? You must not really like your friends. Do you play it before or after you pull the wings off of flys and microwave the neighbor's cat? - EwokSlayer
Not really true. First, saccing Birds to Therapy will typically net you an additional mana, which can be very important tempo-wise in early development. Second, you can sac Birds to Therapy a full turn earlier than Elder, which can be vital in the combo matchup.
I agree with most of the rest of what you said though. Although to be fair, Elder can't block a turn 1 Lackey when you're on the draw, where Birds can. This can be relevant, since Lackey's only truly effective on turn 1 in most cases.
All right, I can concede the combo based point (although this is precisely the deck combo really doesn't want to see sitting across from them anyway...). If a Turn 1 drop is that important, wouldn't Elves of Deep Shadow be superior for all the reasons mentioned in defense of both Sak Elder and BoP?Not really true. First, saccing Birds to Therapy will typically net you an additional mana, which can be very important tempo-wise in early development. Second, you can sac Birds to Therapy a full turn earlier than Elder, which can be vital in the combo matchup.
I agree with most of the rest of what you said though. Although to be fair, Elder can't block a turn 1 Lackey when you're on the draw, where Birds can. This can be relevant, since Lackey's only truly effective on turn 1 in most cases.
Turn 1 Lackey when they are on the play is scary, but this deck runs Deed, the goblin nightmare...don't we almost want them to overextend into it? And at that point, Sak Elder does a fine job, blocking something scary & ramping mana. I have been running Plague Spitters in all of my nearly mono-blcak & green-black test builds. They have been very very good to me against goblins. Although they kill Witnesses & Sak Elders etc etc, those cards still come into play and accomplish something (and then die) but that would be the case versus goblins anyway.....
TL,DR: if you think Saito is ok, check your moral compass. It may be broken. - Spikey Mikey, amen brother
WE know what the price of progress is (often 8-10 life). - Cait Sith
A casual stasis deck? You must not really like your friends. Do you play it before or after you pull the wings off of flys and microwave the neighbor's cat? - EwokSlayer
Is this true? As far as I can tell, the main reason the archetype is worth consideration is because it has the ability to beat combo with Duress, Therapy, and Echoes while maintaining game against aggro and control. If it can't beat Solidarity, etc., it seems like a dedicated aggro or control deck would be the better choice.
If it produced green mana, I'd say yes. Considering the number of GG cc's in the deck, however, I think Deep Shadow's limitation is likely to be significant.If a Turn 1 drop is that important, wouldn't Elves of Deep Shadow be superior for all the reasons mentioned in defense of both Sak Elder and BoP?
Oh...
I guess i did leave some room for misunderstanding.
The reason to play this deck is not combo.
We did not test it much versus either Belcher or Solidarity, but we are pretty sure it sucks. Discard is nice in theory, but the problem is that Baloth is the only relevant clock you can present. If you cannot reuse your discard spells or draw new ones by pure chance Combo will laugh about it.
That's why most SB slots are dedicated towards the combo decks (Tsunami and Naturalize are useful in many other respects though).
The reason to play TheRock is smashing aggro. Test it against Goblins! You will see, that TheRock is much better equipped in respects of CA and attrition than Goblins. They will get a fair amount of damage done, conceded, but TheRock will usually stabilize and kill Goblins with its control funktions and fatties.
And it is even more evil towards other aggro. MonoW for example gets utterly slaughtered by TheRock. Armageddon simply is their only chance for winning.
On the other hand control Matchups are not that bad.
Scepter Chant is bad for sure, but Landstill has severe problems with discard and TheRocks CA tools.
It is exactly there, where Birds shine. 2nd turn Yavi Elder or 3rd Witness + Discard is huge. Gro has severe problems with deed, discard and stronghold. In fact Gro normally has to play beatdown, which is not good for a deck that has its best chance with Mages and Needles. Countering things against TheRock is like throwing your cards into a bottomless vault.
Of course you often have trouble against control decks cause they have better manipulation tools, while you often draw things not wanted in a specific situation and you have to sit and wait doing nothing for exactly half the game (ot). Thats why most SB cards and WB targets too can be used against control (and why i don't recommend SB Plagues).
Against Survival based tactics TheRock is usually performing fairly well too.
In short:
TheRock against aggro: very strong
TheRock against control: fair
TheRock against combo: sucks
Team Weathermen
we shake our heads as your tables turn - they'll always turn - and you will never burn
that's the real promise: you'll never burn
you get the lies - we get the fire
8 spot discard spells do not create a reliable anti-Solidarity game. You have to draw at least 3 of them (or get a particularly devastating Therapy) to create enough time to kill them.
Boarding probably helps quite a bit, though. Opening with a few discard spells should pave the way for Tsunami to wreck them. Persecute might be better though.
EDIT: kimberley covered my points in more detail than I did before I did it. Oh well.
Edited By Obfuscate Freely on 1125709240
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