Let's take it from the top.
Which cards do you definitely want 4 copies of ?
Sakura Tribe Elder - gets you land, thins your deck
Yavimaya Elder - the engine
Wall of Blossoms - card draw is vital to this deck
Eternal Witness - tried it with 3 MD and 1 in SB and didn't like to wish for one. Better to have all 4 Witnesses available MD and being able to wish for other targets.
Duress - no doubt here
Cabal Therapy - key card
Pernicious Deed - key card
That leaves :
4 Ravenous Baloth
2 Diabolic Edict (replaced by Putrefy probably as soon as this is available)
4 Living Wish - minus one to add a Phyrexian Tower to the MD
1 Haunting Echoes
I think Diabolic Edict/Putrefy cannot be played at less than two copies - which is already 1 less than I would like.
If you want to raise that number to 3 you have to cut either a Ravenous Baloth or another Living Wish.
Playing only 2 wishes seems too low. You definitely want to get your hands on 1 wish at least because there is certainly always at least one card from your wishboard that you'd like to have in any given match-up. 4 Wishes may be too much, you don't want to get flooded with them either. 3 Looks like the right number imho.
So, the most logical choice would be to send one Baloth to the Wishboard, where he's still available in case he's needed.
And then there's the mana base :
2x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Treetop Village / Forest
4x Bayou
8x Forest
5x Swamp
The deck has 14 green mana sources and only 9 black sources and that worries me a bit.
Especially since we do not need Green anymore for the opening play as there is only Duress and Therapy left to play on T1.
Green is only needed on T2 for ST-Elder or WoB.
The problem here is that the color you need the least of (black) is the one who should be played first. With no other options on T1 we need to up the black resources IMO.
EDIT: upon further review, this deck could possibly be the first to find a good use for the new Ravnica Dual Lands.
I would suggest to add 2 Overgrown Tombs instead of the 2 Treetop Villages/Forests.
That keeps your green count at 14, which is fine and an improvement by itself, considering you now need it one turn later when not playing BoP and ups your black count from 9 to 11 which feels a lot more secure.
Also, all 19 lands in the deck besides the Strongholds/Tower have the "basic land type" and can be fetched by both Elders.
And since the Sakura-Tibe Elder's lands come into play tapped anyway, it makes sense to let him fetch the Tombs.
Whether the potential life loss is a problem remains to be tested.
All these changes would make the deck look like this :
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Wall of Blossoms
4x Yavimaya Elder
4x Eternal Witness
3x Ravenous Baloth
3x Living Wish
4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Diabolic Edict/Putrefy
1x Haunting Echoes
4x Pernicous Deed
2x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Overgrown Tomb
4x Bayou
8x Forest
5x Swamp
SB:
3x Tsunami
2x Naturalize
1x Ravenous Baloth
1x Gaea's Blessing
1x Plague Spitter
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Wasteland
1x Dust Bowl
1x Spiritmonger
1x Viridian Zealot
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Withered Wretch
Unfortunately neither Sakura Tribe Elder or Yavimaya Elder can search for the Bayous or Overgrown Tombs, as neither are basic lands. Although they have the land types Forest and Swamp, they are still non basics.
I'm still not sold on the inclusion of Sakura Tribe Elder over Birds of Paradise. From experience of playing the deck in Extended, we tested the STE's but fairly swiftly returned to BoP's, for speed, better synergy with Therapy, and oddly enough their ability to fly was useful. Admittedly Legacy is quite different to Extended, and a BoP has a much larger target on it here.
The Rock is a highly metagame dependent deck and fluctuates wildly across geographic areas. Ultimately this can make many discussions of it descend into decklist spamming, or arguing. It might be more productive to come to an agreement on the spine of the deck and discuss possible tweaks to help specific matchups.
The real problem I have with the three color version stems from the fact that it requires too many things to happen at once. This is made worse by the fact that the mana base is extremely volitile. Even the two color version has mana issues from time to time.
My inclination has always been to increase the ammount of black in the deck, mostly because of my love affair with Hymn to Torach :) . But that creates a whole new set of problems. It's difficult to both abuse blacks discard and greens recursion at the same time.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.Originally Posted by Krieger
While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
I always liked the rock deck, and i like the deck that you have put together. How the deck works with cabal therapy is nice. The red version seemed a bit random to me, you might like how that runs, but i think that there are other options to win against combo decks than splashing in red. Here is the decklist that i put together, and it is pretty close to kimberlies ( i had a different mana base at first, but then i looked at yours and saw that i liked it a bit better than mine)
First off, i thought that the wall of blossoms wasn't a good enough card to fit in the deck. It didn't provide a permanent solution to anything, and i thought that something else should be put in place of it. I think that Hymn to Tourach is a much better choice for the obvious reason that this deck has a hard time against combo, and that a little extra help with the other discard might improve that match.
Four Deeds seemed a bit clunky to me, and i think that the deck will run smooth enough with just three in it. with four Peutrefy and two edicts alongside the three deeds, the deck should be able to keep up.
Four living wishes was too much in my opinion. Three might be right, but i couldn't find room for it at the moment. Looking at my board, it wouldn't be that great to draw two in one game, because i don't have enough stuff in the board to pull out more than one thing in one match. (unless something gets StPS'd)
I might be missing somethingn on why ravenous baloth made the cut over spiritmonger, but besides coming out a turn earlier with one bird, i'm not seeing it. Monger can still hit turn three, but its just a bit harder :P
Here is what i put together, but lets see what you guys think
3x Pernicious Deed
4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Diabolic Edict
4x Peutrfy (If it is indeed an instant, that kills a creature and an artifact)
4x Spiritmonger
4x Eternal Witness
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Yavimaya Elder
2x Living Wish
2x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Treetop Village
4x Bayou
5x Forest
5x Swamp
2x Polluted Delta
2x Windswept Heath
SB:
3x Tsunami
1x Wasteland
1x Withered Wretch
2x Chains of Mephistopheles
2x Naturalize
2x Persecute
2x Cranial Extraction
1x Maze of Ith (Wishable in The Game matches, and it wouldn't hurt on some other occasions)
I think that you have a very tiny bit weaker matchup against aggro, just because you don't have the wall buffering against early attacks, but your combo matchup would be much stronger with this deck. I guess it depends on what you think people will be playing. And i definately think that The Rock has a good chance to become competative again.
Idon't see exactly how the list you presented is close to the one Kimberly posted.
Some things I think were innovative, others...not so much.
Positives:
[2 Living wish] I think this may be the best #, I prefer my threats in the main deck rather than in the side board. More and more I have seen Wish become kind of cumbersome, and sometimes downright slow. In kimberly's list it acts as a way of getting the rest of his lock pieces more than it does with getting threats.
[Hymn to Torach] :) , but seriously 4 is way too many. Three should be the maximum, 2 seems solid.
Negatives:
[Spirit Monger] He is somewhat outdated and slow. Wreck face he does, destroy agro he doesn't. Ravenous Baloth plays a key role in stopping aggro in its tracks, I wouldn't play less than three if someone paid me to.
[12 discard effects] Too high, way too high.
-1 Hymn
-1 Duress
[16 creatures] way way too low. 21 has always been a magic # for me with the rock. My "proposed" creature base:
4 Yavimaya Elder
4 Eternal Witness
4 Birds of Paradice
3 Ravenous Baloth
2 Ink-eyes, Servant of the Oni (or Spiritmonger if you like)
4 Wall of blossoms
side note:
Peutrfy seems extremely solid as a removal card but I wouldn't attempt to add it to the deck until some testing has been done. Strong though it is the three mana slots are becoming crowded. Edict doesn't throw off your tempo nearly as much. the card will need to be tested before it automatically becomes a 4 off.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
Well, i can understand cutting one hymn. Not the duress, but possibly a peutrfy (assuming that that card makes the cut, the 3cc will cause it to be a 3 of i think) So if you cut a hymn and a peutrfy you have room for two more creatures. If we cut the mongers and put in Baloth, then i think that we can cut one land, probably a forest, leaving us with three open slots. Since the deck might run 2 man lands, i will count those as creatures ;) . Here is what i propose the creature base to be.
4x Ravenous Baloth (The reason i had monger in before is because i was used to it, and wasn't sure why baloth made the cut in you guys decklist, but he seems solid enough)
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Yavimaya Elder
4x Eternal witness
3x ...
Now lets discuss what creatures could possibly fill the spot here
You suggested ink-eyes, which i really like for a few reasons.
-With birds, he can fly! and nijitsu becomes a bit easier since birds has some form of evasion
-Since there is so much removal in the deck, he gains targets, and ways to bull him through to steal their dead
-He has a pretty big ass, and can regenerate, so not bad.
I think that running two of these wouldn't be too bad. So that is possibly
Masticore - I don't think i've seen anyone discuss this guy, and he isn't too great in this deck, but i think that he would be worth a bit of a mention, here's why
-He is a 4/4 regenerate for 4.
-He can ping smaller creatures away, beginning possibly turn 4, which would help in some aggro matches.
However on the Flipside
-He makes you play more conservative once he hits the table. The rock needs to be able to hold some tricks in had, and masticore limits what you can do with that.
I was thinking that maybe he would be worth running 1 or 2 (if you wanted to cut a baloth for it) in the deck, but if he didn't make the maindeck he could always be a possible board card to pick up with a wish when the situation calls for it. Masticore definately isn't a sure spot in the maindeck, but he isn't bad, i'll let you guys put your two cents in about this.
Spiritmonger
He is a clock against combo decks, with the removal in the deck you can easily beat a path for him to deal damage, and though he is a bit slow to deal with aggro, he is a good follow up to a third or fourth turn baloth. Maybe not worthy of a 4 of, but definately playable.
I could actually see running
3x Baloth
2x Ink-Eyes
2x Spiritmonger
and then the rest of what was above.
It would still put you at 18 actual creatures, but then you have two man-lands also, and i think it is pretty solid. What do you guys think.
What do people think about including the new "hunted" cards? Deed is great at destroying the tokens generated from the creatures. I common play may go something like turn 2: hunted horror, turn 3: deed for 0. :) just a thought...
This play causes a lot of dangers, for example these:
- then your opponent swords your horror and you just traded two full turns (your 1st and 2nd), your deed and a creature vs. one StP.
- or the deed gets countered and your opponent kills you with 3/3 pro black creatures
- or he duresses the deed away
- or you don't have a deed
- or your opponent combos you out as you wasted your 2nd and 3rd turn on dropping creature and deed without caring for handdestruction
See the point: the combo is by far too random too work in this deck.
Im not suggesting that this would be the central point of the deck...I'm just saying that with some removal (deed being especially powerful here) the "hunted" creatures become extremely deadly. Obviously StP would stop hunted horror, but StP stops anything. As for countering, etc, I wouldnt blindly play a deed (thats what duress and therapy are for). Anyhoo, just a thought, if you really believe its unworkable then I guess I can see if someone else can give the idea a shot or some constructive criticism :)
Well, the thing about hunted horror is it is the kind of card that you build a theme about. You cannot just simply throw the card in because you have a few ways to take care of the draw back. The rock isn't a fast beatdown deck, which hunted horror is something that you would play with a deck built around it to get fast kills. The rock needs to answer what your oppenent puts in play, and have hand disruption to stop things from hitting the table or people from comboing out; it doesn't need to give the opponent things for it to have to answer. Ithink the central point of your argument is that yes, with some removal (and deed is a great card to use with the hunted creatures) you can make this card work. But it just doesn't fit in this style of deck.
Heh, i was just looking through some cards to see what interesting cards i could find to work with cabal therapy and i was thinking about this guy
Veteran Explorer - G
Whener Veteran Explorer is put into a graveyard from play, each player may search for up to two basic land cards and put them into play.
1/1
What i was thinking is that since a few decks run mainly dual lands, and not too many basic lands, that this guy would actually be alot better than a birds with cabal therapy. It gives you an advantage if you can cabal therapy him, because you can do this guy first turn, therapy second turn, flash it back, and end with a hymn to tourach, duress, or a yavimaya elder or something.
- Now, i'm not one to think i have the best ideas ever, and since i havn't tested this guy, lets look at the bad side to including this guy. Without Cabal Therapy in hand, this guy is a bit slower than birds of paradise, and he can end up kindof pointless.
-Sure, he can block and kill a first turn lackey in aggro matches(which i doubt anyone would swing into this guy with a lackey), which birds can't, but he doesn't have evasion, so when you are making Angel Stompy discard their angels, you can't fly over them to ninja out an ink-eyes.
-I would hate to see someone lightning bolt this guy before the end of my turn, and end up with four mana on turn 2, because that can suck since you're going to end up losing any advantage this card would give you.
The reason that i think he might be playable is because if he dies on your turn, you get a tremendous advantage when holding hand disruption. This tends to favor the more hand-hate heavy deck i posted earlier, because you can generate a better match against combo when you have the cards. Now if you give combo that extra mana without being able to take care of their hand, you are just asking them to combo out on you.
I wonder if he would help against aggro, since if you block with him, you can deed out faster, and keep up with those shuffles they get. But it also gives them the first chance to use the mana.
I don't know, i couldn't tell you if this card would be worth trying unless i tested it, but lets see if you think that he is beneficial enough to lose the consistancy of birds of paradise. I just wanted to throw it out there :p
I forgot i wanted to talk about this guy too
Mindslicer - 2BB
Whenever he is put into a graveyard, each player discards their hand.
4/3
Whether you are using the birds or the explorer, he can hit third turn consistantly, and possibly second turn if they kill your explorer to use the mana. He is a sure counter against any control/combo deck. The Rock has ways to get rid of this guy, to make his ability trigger.
He can go to the face against solidarity. He is wishable if you need to take care of something fast. Sure, you lose your hand, but the creatures that you can draw out into are pretty nice. Plus you can still hit your removal to take care of any threats they top into.
You wouldn't want to sacrifice him as soon as you cast him, because he would have got countered if they had any. Personally i would wait like two turns if i had a deed on the board. He works great with duress, because you get to see if you need to blow him up, or if you can just beat face with him. He also fills a space in the light creature base you were telling me the deck couldn't have ;)
If you ran mindslicer, would you want to add the rack or nezumi shortfang to take advantage of the empty hands?
Also, I thought of a draw engine that might be viable: Greater Good + Empyrial Plate. The interaction between plate and elder is like old-school land tax and empyrial armor. Not only that, but greater good would draw more and more as plate got bigger and bigger. Greater good also would act as another sacrificing outlet incase we needed it (for mindslicer, etc). Any thoughts?
Well, mindslicer is just a board card i think, because combo and other control decks seem to give a problem. I think it could replace persecute in the board, because it is wishable and isn't color specific. I don't really want to run too much hand disruption, because it takes away from the aggro match, which is what this maindeck is really good for. I like what everyone has posted on the main deck, and i'm sure that we can all come up with an optimal build, but there arn't many slots to spare in the main deck atm. I think that the hand kill is just there to stop them from comboing out, but we don't need to try anything too fancy.
Well? What do people think about the greater good/empyrial plate engine? is it viable?
Your points about Hunted Horror answer why Veteran Explorer is a poor choice. Veteran Explorer looks good with a second turn Therapy, but the rest of the time it's just bad. Your opponent will usually decide whether or not it lives or dies, and thus the advantage granted by it will usually be theirs. I could see using it in some sort of creature based combo deck (Food Chain Myojins?), but not here. It's just too situational to provide a real advantage over BoP or Sakura.
Looks like this thread got completely derailed.
Yapp, I can only agree with you. Cards like Hunted Ones (?), Empyryal Plate(???), The Rack (???), Mindslicer MD or Veteran Explorer should definetely not be discussed, as they are really bad cards in this deck. And I guess everyone already knows what Masticore does, his advantages and disadvantages really didn't need to be explained.
I think Putrefy is indeed a solid card that is worth using MD as it takes out Problem Cards like Exalted Angels as well as Vedalken Shackles or CoW. My question would be what to cut for it and how many should be used.
According to Kimberley's list I think I would just cut the 2 Edicts and replace them by Putrefy. Even though Edicts are faster and a possible soltution to lackey if you start, I think the flexibility of Putrefy just outclasses the Edict.
What are your opinions about these two?
Edict doesn't target. Edict take care of Pro:Black, Untargetable, Regenerating, Indestructible creatures...
Edict is fast. I you run first, you'll be able to crush this dumb Lackey. (although Innocent Blood is better in this case imho)
Putrefy target. Putrefy will take care of THIS nasty Piledriver instead of that random now-useless Lackey.
Putrefy is versatile. It kills FlameTongueKavu OR CoW OR BloodMoon.
I Would say it depends of the critters played in the current metagame. Rock plays Pernicious Deed, and this one is already versatile. Sweep the board then Edict this nasty persistent DarkSteel Colossus of them.
I think we'll do see it played in T2 Pseudo-Rock Deck but in Legacy... well, I'll run 2 of them, not much more.
It's versatile, yes, but it doesn't hit enchantments; only creatures and artifacts.
I haven't been too happy with its mana cost, but part of that's probably because I run STE over BoP, thus eliminating the chance of playing a 3cc spell on turn two.
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