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Thread: [Deck] The Rock - Adapted to Legacy

  1. #61

    Problem with Troll is, I never have the mana to reg him, as rock is a very mana-hungry deck.I n 3 tournaments, I have encountered exactly 4 Swords to plowshares, and they were all blown by WW players to remove my annoying WoB ;)
    In my meta, Landstill is mostly U/R. But I will try out the Trolls (though I have only 3, so I won't play 4 which is a bit much anyway. I'll probably try 2 + the Swords)The other thing Kokusho does is winning the Mirror outright, as the other Rocks don't play anything bigger than baloth, and don't even play Putrefy yet

    Regarding Putrefy, this card is a beast, in my meta, there are a lot of WW and I really like blowing up Jittes :)
    Last Gasp is just a bad Smother in my opinion. when will you find a expensive creature that has only 3 toughness, which is the only case, Gasp would be better than Smother.
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  2. #62

    In the following DTB here is what ostracize hits vs what duress hits:

    Goblins: Ostracize hits 64% of the deck vs Duress hitting 6% of the cards in the deck.

    RGSA: Ostracize hits 42% of the deck DUress hits 6% of the deck.

    Solidarity: Ostracize hits 0% of the deck, Duress hits 66% of the deck.

    Ostracize averages (0+64+42)/3=35.%
    Duress averages (66+6+6)/3=26%

    Please defend your opinion that Ostracize is crap.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Dangerously
    In the following DTB here is what ostracize hits vs what duress hits:

    Goblins: Ostracize hits 64% of the deck vs Duress hitting 6% of the cards in the deck.

    RGSA: Ostracize hits 42% of the deck DUress hits 6% of the deck.

    Solidarity: Ostracize hits 0% of the deck, Duress hits 66% of the deck.

    Ostracize averages (0+64+42)/3=35.%
    Duress averages (66+6+6)/3=26%

    Please defend your opinion that Ostracize is crap.
    RGSA doesn't care if you knock the creatures out of their hand... they're just going to Survival up another one or Genesis it, so Ostracize will only be good IF the Survival player has no Genesis or Survival. That's unlikely at best. Against Goblins you're better off just playing some jank like Lose Hope or Darkblast because you can at least surprise the Gobbo player in combat AND you've made them spend the mana to play the man. Don't underestimate the importance of this! Goblins is the most brutally efficient tempo deck out there. Your job is to blunt that tempo and win the long game by generating insurmountable card advantage. Depriving them of 1 goblin (assuming you play first and get Ostracize in your hand) is just a drop in the ocean of Goblins that they can deploy.

    The other reason that Ostracize is terrible is that you're only going to be playing first in half of your game 1's. If your opponent goes first and opens up with "Mountain/Lackey/Go" and you go "Swamp/Ostracize - rip their Best goblin - go," do you believe that it's going to matter if they poop out their "Best" goblin or their "Second Best" goblin? You're so far behind at that point in tempo that recovery is going to be nigh impossible. Please note that Ostracize is perfectly dead against the control decks as well, while Duress rips up control and Combo.

    So the point is that despite the fact that Ostracize will be "live" against Goblins most of the time it just doesn't matter. It's rearranging the deck-chairs on the Titanic when what you need to be doing instead is turning the Rudder.
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  4. #64

    The fact is that ostracize hits creatures. Rock does not have its biggest problem problem with creatures.
    Also, ostracize hits exactly 0 cards in landstill and belcher.
    By the way, Belcher, Landstill and Solidarity are Rocks biggest weaknesses, and withouth Duress, you have absolutely no way of winning those matches.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deep Inside
    ostracize hits exactly 0 cards in landstill and belcher.
    Technically Ostracize hits Eternal Dragon in Landstill and can hit Birds, Welder, Tinder Wall, and Elvish Spirit Guide in Belcher, depending on the build. I'm just clarifying, though. This doesn't make Ostracize any good.

  6. #66
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    Been a while since my last post, but have lately been sitting idol in the threads...

    A year+ or so ago, I played Rock continuously. I top 4'd every week I played it, and I must say... Landstill was always an easy win... They just cant handle Duress + Cabal Therapy + Troll + spot removal for their manlands. I started playing this deck because of all the Control decks, this is just one of the best agro control decks there is to beat Control.

    Also, Putrify is crazy in here. Killing Crucible, Disk, Jitte, SoFI, AEther Vial, and any targetable creature... its just insane.

    Ostracize isnt in the deck simply because you dont care about any creatures, cause you will kill them. Duress is a must due to combo, control, and any card that will threaten your strategy, creatures do not threaten your strategy, they are just a spell your opponents cast to make them feel like the creatures help, then you crush their hope with Edict, Putrify, Smother, Deed... etc.

    Just my 2¢...
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  7. #67
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    After a bit more playtesting, I've fiddled with my decklist a little more:


    //Land
    4 x Wooded Foothills
    4 x Bayou
    4 x Overgrown Tomb
    4 x Forest
    3 x Swamp
    1 x Volrath's Stronghold

    //Creatures
    4 x Wall of Blossoms
    4 x Birds of Paradise
    4 x Ravenous Baloth
    3 x Yavimaya Elder
    3 x Eternal Witness
    3 x Troll Ascetic

    //Spells
    4 x Putrefy
    4 x Pernicious Deed
    4 x Duress
    4 x Cabal Therapy
    3 x Living Wish

    //The Board
    4 x Enigneered Plague
    4 x Infest
    2 x Plague Spitter
    1 x Volrath's Stronghold
    2 x Viridian Shaman
    2 x Quagmire Druid

    I finally took out Gleancrawler. It's good, but not in this deck. It's just too slow for legacy. Especially against Goblins. I put in some living wishes, including some more toolbox stuff in the sideboard like Viridian Shaman for artifacts and quagmire druids for enchantments. I'm not entirely sure about the quagmire druid over, say, druid lyrist, but I like the fact that his ability is repeatable and it gives me a way to sac stuff so I can recur it. Also, he's bigger, so he can trade with more stuff. For those of you who don't know, quagmire druid reads thusly:

    Quagmire Druid 2B
    Creature - Druid Zombie
    G, T, Sacrifice a creature: destroy target enchantment.
    2/2

    He'll probably end up saccing himself like a lyrist most of the time, but only further playtesting will tell. I took out the diabolic edicts because, well, they don't really do much. I might put in smothers later once I figure out what to take out for them. I'm also still running 4 duress because my meta is slowly shifting towards solidarity (something that doesn't bode well for me).

    Any thoughts on the new build?
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinder
    After a bit more playtesting, I've fiddled with my decklist a little more:


    //Land
    4 x Wooded Foothills
    4 x Bayou
    4 x Overgrown Tomb
    4 x Forest
    3 x Swamp
    1 x Volrath's Stronghold

    //Creatures
    4 x Wall of Blossoms
    4 x Birds of Paradise
    4 x Ravenous Baloth
    3 x Yavimaya Elder
    3 x Eternal Witness
    3 x Troll Ascetic

    //Spells
    4 x Putrefy
    4 x Pernicious Deed
    4 x Duress
    4 x Cabal Therapy
    3 x Living Wish

    //The Board
    4 x Enigneered Plague
    4 x Infest
    2 x Plague Spitter
    1 x Volrath's Stronghold
    2 x Viridian Shaman
    2 x Quagmire Druid

    I finally took out Gleancrawler. It's good, but not in this deck. It's just too slow for legacy. Especially against Goblins. I put in some living wishes, including some more toolbox stuff in the sideboard like Viridian Shaman for artifacts and quagmire druids for enchantments. I'm not entirely sure about the quagmire druid over, say, druid lyrist, but I like the fact that his ability is repeatable and it gives me a way to sac stuff so I can recur it. Also, he's bigger, so he can trade with more stuff. For those of you who don't know, quagmire druid reads thusly:

    Quagmire Druid 2B
    Creature - Druid Zombie
    G, T, Sacrifice a creature: destroy target enchantment.
    2/2

    He'll probably end up saccing himself like a lyrist most of the time, but only further playtesting will tell. I took out the diabolic edicts because, well, they don't really do much. I might put in smothers later once I figure out what to take out for them. I'm also still running 4 duress because my meta is slowly shifting towards solidarity (something that doesn't bode well for me).

    Any thoughts on the new build?
    There's a couple of problems here.

    First: You have almost no redundancy on mana acceleration. Why? Yavimaya Elder is almost as slow as Gleancrawler if you want to use him to his maximum effect. In the old extended where you could afford to spend some time making sure that you won't miss any land drops he was OK, but not without a set of Birds and Llanowars flanking him so that he can be played on turn 2 consistently. Without those turn 1 accelerants that Elder is going to be pretty much of a turn 3 play all the time. That's just begging to be Gempalm Incinerated. Sure, you'll get your 2 lands, but you'll get nailed by a Lackey, Piledriver and Warchief and have no blockers! Maybe you'll have a Wall of Blossoms, but that's putting a bandaid on a Gunshot Wound. Which one are you going to block? The massive damage goblin (and lose your wall) or the Lackey in order to prevent the "Big Turn" from losing you the game on the next turn?

    Also: What is with this wish board? Quagmire Druid? Mana efficiency is key to this deck. The Druid does not fit this bill. How about Viridian Zealot? Would he be a more acceptable replacement? At least Druid/Elvish Lyrist are cheap to use considering their Summoning Sickness problem. But if somebody can kill a Lyrist they can kill a Druid... Also, get a Bone Shredder in there in place of one of those Shamans! Shredder wipes out the best guy on the other side of the board and will be able to block in the ensuing attack or he'll draw removal. You're pretty much going to let it die during your upkeep anyhow, so it's a huge quantity of card advantage. Add to this the fact that if you stack Echo and Genesis correctly you can let the Shredder die to Echo and regrow it immediately to be replayed. And where is Genesis!!? Volrath's Stronghold is nice, but Wasteland is one of the most commonly played cards in Legacy. It steals your Draw Step in essence unless you are Putting Wall of Blossoms or Witness on the Top of your deck. That's extremely mana intensive. Genesis is just as mana intensive and doesn't require you to play a land that's just going to die. At least you can play a solid mana base while setting up Genesis recursion. And you get your Draw Step!

    Next: What is the deal with this mana base? Why do you feel the need to use 150 dual lands? Are you aware that this makes you more susceptible to Wasteland/generic nonbasic hate? How about the fact that it actually helps your opponent out quite a bit if you ever have to plunk down one of those Rav Duals untapped? It damages your Burn and Goblins matchups severely by intentionally lowering your life total and making it so that you're probably going to get nailed by a massive Price of Progress from the Burn deck or Wasted into submission by the Gobbos.

    So, in conclusion: What you should think about doing is increasing the number of accelerants you're playing. Sakura-Tribe Elder is a perfectly acceptable replacement for Yavimaya Elder. Between Elders and Birds you're much more likely to see turn 3 Baloths and other assorted goodness while shoring up your mana base and accelerating it. Also, cut the number of nonbasic lands you're using! Between the Fetchlands and the mana acceleration/fixing that you have at your disposal there should be no problem getting the Black mana you need. This allows you to bias your mana base in favor of Green quite a bit in order to ensure you have that mana consistency. Finally, do some testing against a good goblins deck. You'll see that there is plenty of reason to make the changes I'm suggesting.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majestyk1136
    Quagmire Druid? Mana efficiency is key to this deck. The Druid does not fit this bill. How about Viridian Zealot? Would he be a more acceptable replacement?
    Zealot is hardly more mana efficient than Druid. It does have the advantage of being active the turn it hits play, though.

    Add to this the fact that if you stack Echo and Genesis correctly you can let the Shredder die to Echo and regrow it immediately to be replayed.
    No, you can't. Both Genesis's ability and Echo are triggered abilities, and they both trigger at the beginning of your upkeep. You have to choose the target for Genesis' trigger when you put it on the stack, at which point Shredder will still be in play, no matter how you stack the abilities.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
    Quote Originally Posted by Majestyk1136
    Quagmire Druid? Mana efficiency is key to this deck. The Druid does not fit this bill. How about Viridian Zealot? Would he be a more acceptable replacement?
    Zealot is hardly more mana efficient than Druid. It does have the advantage of being active the turn it hits play, though.

    Add to this the fact that if you stack Echo and Genesis correctly you can let the Shredder die to Echo and regrow it immediately to be replayed.
    No, you can't. Both Genesis's ability and Echo are triggered abilities, and they both trigger at the beginning of your upkeep. You have to choose the target for Genesis' trigger when you put it on the stack, at which point Shredder will still be in play, no matter how you stack the abilities.
    I think that the ability to be used immediately trumps the need to wait with Quagmire Druid. It's not like you are frequently going to be facing a situation where you need to annihilate 2-3 enchantments at a time such that Quagmire Druid would be a necessity anyways. In the final analysis you spend the same amount of mana anyways (the colored mana is slightly more prohibitive on Zealot, but sometimes it just needs to be dead now.)

    My bad on the Genesis thing. You're right that it needs to target when it goes on the stack. I thought that you chose targets when deciding whether to pay the 2G on resolution of the trigger. Good pluck.
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  11. #71
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    Sakura-Tribe Elder is a perfectly acceptable replacement for Yavimaya Elder.
    I was actually beginning to think the same thing. At 2cc, he's faster than Yavimaya Elder, and mostly my Yavimaya Elders end up on the wrong end of an STP anyway. The fact that the STE sacs for free helps take care of that.

    cut the number of nonbasic lands you're using!
    But...I likethe new duals....I can see where you're coming from though. Generally, they end up slowing me down by coming into play tapped anyway. And more basic just means more targets for Elders......

    How about Viridian Zealot? Would he be a more acceptable replacement?
    No argument here. I completely forgot about the Zealot. Thanks.

    get a Bone Shredder in there in place of one of those Shamans!
    I was thinking about throwing in Nekrataal, but the black-intensive 4 mana kept me from considering him for long. This guy though, is tech. He's cheaper, and he manages to die all by his lonesome, making himself prime for recursion. And I don't think there are any artifact or black creatures I'll be wanting to kill anyway. Thanks for pointing him out.

    And where is Genesis!!?
    I want to run Genesis. I really do.The main problem with Volrath's Stronghold is that it stunts your ability to draw. Genesis is better at maintaining card advantage. But as of right now there's just no good way to get him into my graveyard short of therapying myself, or playing him, and saccing him to therapy. Any thoughts on a reliable way to get him into the yard?

    After taking your thoughts into consideration, I've arrived at this:

    //Land
    4 x Wooded Foothills
    4 x Bayou
    6 x Forest
    5 x Swamp
    1 x Volrath's Stronghold

    //Creatures
    4 x Wall of Blossoms
    4 x Birds of Paradise
    4 x Ravenous Baloth
    3 x Sakura Tribe Elder
    3 x Eternal Witness
    3 x Troll Ascetic

    //Spells
    4 x Putrefy
    4 x Pernicious Deed
    4 x Duress
    4 x Cabal Therapy
    3 x Living Wish

    //The Board
    4 x Enigneered Plague
    4 x Infest
    2 x Plague Spitter
    1 x Volrath's Stronghold
    1 x Viridian Shaman
    1 x Bone Shredder
    1 x Viridian Zealot
    1 x Genesis

    Further playtesting to ensue.
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  12. #72
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    Well, usually, when you're having problems with getting Genesis in the yard, it means your opponent has this 4/4 to deal with, so they'll either die, or convienently deposit him in the bin for you.

    Or Plow him, but whatever.
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  13. #73
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    You're playing with those Eternal Witnesses for a Reason. :D

    I'm using a playset because the card advantage you get from them is tremendous. Your plan for getting Genesis into the grave is going to rely upon the Game State. Does it make more sense to recur guys with Genesis at a particular point or would it be more beneficial to rely on the built-in recursion from the Witnesses? Once the situation becomes obvious (you've determined what you need to wish for) you should have a plan in mind for executing it. My first wish is almost never for Genesis, by the way. Against Goblins I go for the Shredder. Against Landstill/Generic Control I go for Thrull Surgeon/Ravenous Rats depending on what I expect to see. Ditto for Combo. Both of those cards are Wrecking Balls. Against other randomness blindly wishing up Genesis may be attractive but you are basically wishing for Fat at that point and would be better off getting that Baloth or Spiritmonger from your Sideboard. It's just an issue of playing smart and realizing that you have the answers to beat nearly any deck out there (with the possible exception of Belcher...) given crisp play.

    EDIT: For reference, here's my current list.

    //NAME: G/B Control
    4 Birds of Paradise
    4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Duress
    4 Troll Ascetic
    3 Putrefy
    3 Ravenous Baloth
    4 Wall of Blossoms
    4 Pernicious Deed
    3 Living Wish
    4 Eternal Witness
    1 Wooded Foothills
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Bayou
    8 Forest
    6 Swamp
    SB: 1 Genesis
    SB: 1 Skyshroud War Beast
    SB: 1 Dust Bowl
    SB: 1 Bone Shredder
    SB: 1 Ravenous Baloth
    SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
    SB: 1 Ravenous Rats
    SB: 4 Engineered Plague
    SB: 1 Putrefy
    SB: 3 Persecute

    I upped the number of Putrefy maindecked as an answer to random dorks and/or annoying artifacts. It is such a strong card I want to play 4, but can't seem to cut anything else.

    As a sidenote: Against Wombat. Wombat has few relevant spells against you in reality. Your hand destruction needs to be aimed primarily at their creature removal or at Decree of Justice. You can bait them into playing Humility if you are hand destruction light, sandbag a Deed until you hit 7 and annihilate the board. After Boarding you have Mind Twist for infinity against them in Persecute, so there's almost no way you can lose.
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  14. #74

    I never got a response to my proposed SB card against Landstill: Tsabo's Web. I've found this card highly useful, especially against the U/R builds, whose only shot at it is a disk, which can be naturalized.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deep Inside
    I never got a response to my proposed SB card against Landstill: Tsabo's Web. I've found this card highly useful, especially against the U/R builds, whose only shot at it is a disk, which can be naturalized.
    Tsabo's Web is a fine sideboard option against Landstill, but what are you planning on removing from the Board to put it in? Your Landstill matchup is pretty good as it is - you have inevitability against them. Do you need to make them more dead?
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  16. #76

    Actually I lost most of my games against U/R Landstill, and the ones that I won, I had the Web out. They just counter/Stifle my important stuff, and proceed to kill me with CoW-protected Factories.
    I never played U/W Landstill though, that may be different.

    At the moment, I'm not playing with Wish, so I have a lot of SB space.
    When I did play with Wish, I played something like this:

    4 Engineered Plague
    3 Tsabo's Web
    3 Naturalize
    1 Viridian Zealot
    1 Boneshredder
    1 Spiritmonger
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Ascetic Troll
    Holy fire
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  17. #77
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    If this is your sideboard, what does your maindeck look like right now? The wishes are too important to just drop...
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  18. #78

    I've played with Wishes most of the time, and I probably will put them back in, but at the moment, where I have to face Goblins twice every tournament, I've decided to drop Duress and Wish from the Maindeck, and crush Goblins instead.

    4 Llanowar Wastes (don't have duals)
    2 Treetop Village
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    10 Forest
    5 Swamp

    4 BoP
    4 STE
    4 WoB
    4 Eternal Witness
    4 Baloth
    2 Ascetic Troll

    4 Deed
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Smother
    4 Putrefy


    SB:
    4 Naturalize
    4 Duress
    3 Tsabo's Web
    4 Engineered Plague
    Holy fire
    I\'m not scared of you
    I\'ll take you to burn
    It is our destiny
    Killing our brothers

    Take a look at me now
    Feel the fury, taste my rage
    Come taste my revenge
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  19. #79
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    I play in a more control-oriented meta. Hence, I play the Wishes and Duresses. Obviously after boards I'm in "Destroy all Goblins" mode, but I can pull out a fair share of games against Gobs pre-sideboard assuming they don't get Lackey on the play every time. As I think was noted a couple pages ago, Duress is a critical Element in beating Landstill in all its forms.
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  20. #80
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    SB: 1 Skyshroud War Beast
    Oooh. I didn't know this guy existed. This guy vs Landstill makes me happy. :D

    And only 2 fetches? I guess that's okay, though, what with the 4 Witnesses...maybe I'll cut a Foothill to make room for a 4th in my build. I still ike 4 though, so I can draw them consistently.

    Also, I was wondering if anyone's considered Nezumi Shortfang in the SB in place of rats/surgeon. The only downside I can see is that you can't use him right away (of course with this deck, that might be bad). But the discard is instant speed, and if you flip him, a 3/3 rack on your side of the table aint half bad...just some thoughts.

    EDIT: Oh, and do you think having Plagues and Infest in my board is a little overkill? I'm thinking I might cut one or the other to make room for more toolbox stuff.
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    -Slay

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