And how good you did with this deck ? Post some of your tournament results. Im considering a deck to run in PTQ Lille, and have to choose between : Rock, Burn and MWC.
Hi kids, how are, know that me is > you !
Ruler of Galaxys, Destroyer of the Worlds, the great conquerer of star systems, center of universe, omnipresent essence. Yes, thats all me... errmmm... hi :)
Add to this the fact that he's a Beast... Which of course means that you can Dodge Swords if you have a Baloth out.Originally Posted by Pinder
I cut down to 2 Fetches because the Deck is land light anyways. I don't want to suck out all of the lands immediately and maybe miss land drops. That = Bad Times.
Rats are in there because of Mana Efficiency. You get the Maximum effect out of them against Goblins in particular where it practically reads "put a goblin in your hand in the Graveyard. Oh yeah, and kill this or lose another Goblin to it."
Your fortune for the day:
Your death will be so violent and protracted that the police will let your family down easy by telling them you were sodomized in half by a horse.
What do people think of Cranial Extraction in the SB? I say this because my meta is slowly becoming filled with combo (read: solidarity), and I think cranials would be a decent sideboard to switch for all the dead creature kill (a la putrefy). A cranial for high tide would stop them in their tracks, yes? The only downside I can see is that it costs 4 mana.
I also recently switched out the maindeck Volrath's Stronghold for a MD Genesis (I still have the other stronghold in the board though), and I put dustbowl in the board too. Of course, with only one maindeck, I'm having trouble finding him, getting him into the yard, and using him in any decent time frame. Any thoughts on solving this? Should I run more, or some kind of tutoring...?
Team Info-Ninjas: Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy.
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1. Why do you want to cast Extraction, if you can simply cast Tsunami in its place? Solidarity can kill without Tide, control can still manage play against you...while Tsunami is game over.
...and its in your primary color.
2. Why are you so fond of Genesis?
You have to cast it (hell! it's a very bad creature for 5), you have to get it destroyed (heard about Plowshares? ... you are aware that you won't have left any Therapy turn 5?) and you have to pay the same damn 3 mana as you have to pay with stronghold. And if Genesis is removed from the yard via Furnace the show is over.
Instead you could run 3 or so Volrath's Stronghold and simply win every late game you enter with them (if your opponent can not take out all your Stronghold with Wastelands and you Witnesses with countermagic).
Team Weathermen
we shake our heads as your tables turn - they'll always turn - and you will never burn
that's the real promise: you'll never burn
you get the lies - we get the fire
I've got your tutors right here...4 Eternal Witness
3-4 Living Wish
SB: 1 Genesis
Witness can cover recursion in the maindeck most of the time. In the rare occasions where it doesn't you have Wish to find Genesis. Like Frogboy said, if you're having a problem getting Genesis into the graveyard this typically means your opponent has to deal with a 4/4 beater...
Refer to my list from the previous page. I posted like an 8/10 victory rate over Vial Gobs on Friday night when my friend and I tested. The only times he won were when I was mana screwed once and another time when he popped double Lackey with a Port to tap down my Forest which would have led to a Wall of Blossoms and stabilization land. Brutal. He was ticked.
Anyways, I think that Persecute is just a beating against non-Belcher Combo. It's better than Cranial because Solidarity can probably win through Cranial for just 1 piece. They can't win through Mind Twist.
Your fortune for the day:
Your death will be so violent and protracted that the police will let your family down easy by telling them you were sodomized in half by a horse.
MODS: Sorry for the Double post, but I feel these criticisms needed to be responded to directly and in their own response. I had already responded to Pinder previously and didn't have time to properly address these comments. If you want to merge this post... feel free.
@ Point 1: Tsunami is a ghetto Armageddon. It will not resolve against Solidarity unless you've already raped their hand with Duress/Therapy. Tsunami also has no other appications outside of the Solidarity matchup. Extraction has the problem of making it so that Solidarity is just in the position of needing to Wish for their High Tide in order to win. There really needs to be a "Removed-from-the-friggin-game-forever Zone" from which nothing can be retrieved. A much better solution is just playing Persecute because it wrecks house against a wide swath of decks in the format. It's at least on an equal plane to Extraction in most matchups. It has some of the same weaknesses as Cranial but more upsides:
A) both are too slow to deal with Belcher, Goblins and ATS
B) Doesnt' cause significant damage to polychromatic control decks.
However, there are the following extra benefits to playing Persecute:
A) Wrecks all Mono-colored, Non-aggressive type decks, especially Wombat and Solidarity. Less so with Jack Black, but it can be important for the next reason.
B) Provides Direct Card Advantage. This is a less important thing sometimes, but against the matchups that it has to function in it may as well read "Win the Game" because recovering from this card for any mono-colored deck is almost impossible. Cranial is nothing more than an annoyance to the Control decks except in Multiples.
@ Point 2:
Genesis is the card advantage mechanism of last resort. Against ATS it will keep you alive through recurring Baloths for long enough to eventually use your board sweepers to clean up. I wish there were something in this deck that was akin to a Combo finish such that once you've established control you can clobber them but that solution is just not there, so Genesis is there to finish up.
As I said in an earlier post, Genesis is infrequently my first pluck from a Wish. The deck can function without it in most matchups and doesn't need it because it is slow as hell in most cases.
@ Multiple Volrath's Strongholds in the Board:
Are you nutz? This land is a Wish Target at best and playing multiples is a surefire way to find oneself manascrewed against Goblins. This land produces colorless mana, is nonbasic and is legendary. Drawing multiples means you can't play the second. That is terrible. Maybe your area is so choked with Goblins that you have to recur men all the time, but ironically this makes no sense because that land is not going to last against goblins. Having a solid mana base is the cornerstone of beating that deck. You can't afford to bastardize your deck's mana against Landstill and Goblins and expect to win. The decks that can't monkey with your mana don't care about you recurring men.
@ Pinder: That is a lot of creature hate. Some more utility would be nice if only because your matchup with Goblins ought to be favorable anyways by a fair margin. Especially after boarding. You have so many ways to wipe out the Gobbs after boards that there ought to be nothing that they can do to beat you. I believe you said that you have to play Goblins all the time. You probably beat them because you're practically pre-sideboarded against them. How are your matchups against everybody else however? Unless everybody is playing aggro on that end of the world it would seem that you'd get your dog walked by control all day long. Especially in game 1.
Your fortune for the day:
Your death will be so violent and protracted that the police will let your family down easy by telling them you were sodomized in half by a horse.
Armageddon is symmetrical.
The same is true of Extraction only moreso. Furthermore, if you haven't hit them with Duress or Therapy in the early game, you lose anyway.It will not resolve against Solidarity unless you've already raped their hand with Duress/Therapy.
Landstill? Angel Control? Tog? Gro? Anything with Vedalken Shackles or countermagic in it, really. RGSA runs it for the Landstill and Solidarity matchups, and it works there. Why isn't it going to work here?Tsunami also has no other appications outside of the Solidarity matchup.
Volrath's Stronghold does what Genesis does, except you don't have to get it into the yard to do it. Incidentally, Living Wish can get lands too. You don't have to run Stronghold maindeck.Genesis is the card advantage mechanism of last resort.
And how good you did with this deck ? Post some of your tournament results. Im considering a deck to run in PTQ Lille, and have to choose between : Rock, Burn and MWC.
First time you seemed to ignore me. Lets try ask you second time. Any one of you guys, actually tryed this deck in legacy tourney or you just talking about non-embodied ideas here ?
Hi kids, how are, know that me is > you !
Ruler of Galaxys, Destroyer of the Worlds, the great conquerer of star systems, center of universe, omnipresent essence. Yes, thats all me... errmmm... hi :)
Typically decks that use Armageddon attempt to A) Establish superior board position prior to Blowing Up the World and winning or B) Recover from Blowing Up the World more quickly than their opponent and winning. This deck doesn't require cutting off its opponents late game with cards like 'Geddon or Tsunami. Blue lands just aren't that threatening to this deck. Unless it's Solidarity and then you just have to concentrate on killing their hand anyway. Hence, Persecute.Armageddon is symmetrical.
The same is true of Extraction only moreso. Furthermore, if you haven't hit them with Duress or Therapy in the early game, you lose anyway.It will not resolve against Solidarity unless you've already raped their hand with Duress/Therapy.
Landstill? Angel Control? Tog? Gro? Anything with Vedalken Shackles or countermagic in it, really. RGSA runs it for the Landstill and Solidarity matchups, and it works there. Why isn't it going to work here?Tsunami also has no other appications outside of the Solidarity matchup.
Volrath's Stronghold does what Genesis does, except you don't have to get it into the yard to do it. Incidentally, Living Wish can get lands too. You don't have to run Stronghold maindeck.Genesis is the card advantage mechanism of last resort.
On the issue of Extraction, I have counselled against its use. It's too narrow in a fast format to be much of a threat to decks that it could hurt. Mainly because the decks it could hurt are off to the races and winning by the time you've done this. I agree however that if you don't get the disruption against Solidarity you just lose. It gets better after boards thanks to Persecute, but I'm not entirely sure that some Generic discard spell (Hymn to Tourach or Waking Nightmare/Mindrot) might not be just as damaging if it's a little bit faster. Trouble is, nobody plays Solidarity around here so it's tough to test short of firing up 2 copies of Apprentice and going at it against myself. It's hard to play Cabal Therapy correctly if you have perfect information about your "opponent's" hand. [glare]
Back to Tsunami again. No. No. No. And just for good measure, No. You destroy all of these decks to begin with. I haven't tested against Loam-A-Tog yet but my initial impression is that the deck is vulnerable to the same problem as the rest of these decks: they all die to your maindeck removal and disruption. A lot of the versions of Loam-A-Tog that I've seen have Deed (which sort of cancels yours out in a way) in them and the scariest thing that they can do is play a Corpse Dance/Shallow Grave for the win. Gro is a Joke as Duress and Therapy tear it a new hole. Anything that makes it through that gets clobbered by Deed, Putrefy or Bone Shredder. Even Mystic Enforcer + Threshold isn't that scary as he can be infinitely chumped by Birds + Genesis or just gets blown up by Deed. My friend plays 'Zerk for that reason. [oh]
Against Landstill you have other worries than blowing up their Islands. Their hand is a more impressive target as the only way they can beat you is through gaining board advantage, (fat chance) but I don't even bring in Persecute against my friend because I just destroy his Landstill deck anyways. The fool surprised me the other day by playing MD Angel. What a prick. But, nonetheless, I recovered and beat him anyways through his cheesedick surprise attack. So in short, there may be some application for Tsunami but it seems largely unnecessary as your existing answers just work better. Tsunami is pretty much win-more.
@ Volrath's Stronghold in the board. This is a fine thing. Would Dust Bowl be better? I have tried it both ways and found that having Genesis as your recursion tends to be better as you don't have to rely on a nonbasic land to recur stuff. You have 4 Regrowths maindeck anyways, so the number of times you're going to be forced to wish for your recursion are pretty rare but it can be important. I'm thinking that the slot I devoted to a Dust Bowl is going to get replaced with Withered Wretch thanks to Loam-A-Tog and other graveyard recursion however. I seriously try to run as few non-basic lands maindeck as possible. Maybe that's because I have the Ph3ar, but I think having mana stability is more important than just about anything in this deck.
@ Elven_Titz: I didn't mean to ignore you. I just hadn't had time to really evaluate your request. I think that you can play this deck safely in a meta that won't expect to see a lot of burn. You essentially have 6 chances to draw a Ravenous Baloth in this deck and that is the only thing that will keep you alive for an extended period of time against that deck because you can't win that fast. Your hand disruption may as well read "This spell prevents 3-4 damage from target burn player." Obviously, Putrefy is worthless against them, but you replace that with Persecute after boarding so you should be able to have a good shot at winning on the play thanks to your increased disruption. I hesitate to give percentages, but if I had a gun to my head I would call it 40-60 preboard, 50-50 after boards, this largely depending on who's on the play as well.
Against Landstill, it's just a control deck. Tear their hand apart and win with a Troll. Their only relevant removal is Wrath of God as it's the only thing that can hit the Troll. Their Manlands are obnoxious sometimes but they'll be unable to dump early Standstills against you thanks to the fact that you'll be able to set up board advantage against them or just knock the card out of their grip. Recursion shouldn't be an issue as you have a thousand ways to nuke Crucible, and activating a Manland against this deck is a surefire way to lose a land. Deed for 0 nukes them, Putrefy nukes them, Baloth Eats them and Troll Regenerates. Double Factory should not be a problem because of the issues listed above. Is anybody going to play this deck however? Against MWC the only problem that they can present you is Humility. Again, you should have the answers through Hand Destruction and Board Sweeping. They of course can run the game out to ridiculous levels via Dragon... That's another reason I'm looking at Wretch, as if he can come down and whack a couple of Dragons in the Graveyard that improves your life greatly. Persecute Wrecks house against them by the way as they have few ways of Generating real card advantage.
As far as what I'd play of these 3 decks, I would play the one you have the most experience with. Burn is simple to play with few difficult decisions to be made. MWC is probably the most difficult to play but has strategic superiority over Goblins. Burn is the same way. Playing against Goblins for the Rock is a tale of Who Went First. If Goblins got the First turn Lackey You're going to be in trouble. I would much rather see a first turn Vial than a Lackey, because your options become more open against Vial. Therapy is of course a Wrecking Ball because you can shut down a lot of their action with a Therapy based on what they show you on turn 1. After boards you get to dump Duress and replace it and 1 Wish with Engineered Plagues. My personal win/loss Ratio in 10 games against Goblins (pre-sideboard) was 8-2. I do not believe this is the "True" win percentage however. It's probably more like 6-4 or 7-3. I'm very scared of posting this result because I'm likely to get flamed. Playing First is HUGE in this matchup however. Luring your opponent into an X-for-1 is very possible thanks to Deed. Also, all of your beaters trade or win outright against their men. Sometimes they get the nut draw however and you can't recover. That's just life. And just to pre-empt people asking me "was your testing partner some incompetent n00b?1!" I say no. I just wrecked him. Learning what hands to keep is pretty important as well. But that should go without saying as there are just some hands that can't win no matter what you do.
I assume that you are from France or the EU, so I have no idea what your metagame looks like, but I would try to play the deck that has the most stability while having a decent matchup against the Gobbs. Probably MWC. The Rock would be a Rogue choice for sure as not everybody would be prepared for it and most people discount it.
Your fortune for the day:
Your death will be so violent and protracted that the police will let your family down easy by telling them you were sodomized in half by a horse.
@Majestyk1136
Thank you for your answer. How are you doing in your tournaments, is there any problem matchups that you didnt mention ?
Im going to try to play rock in local stores and write here my report (i think its gonna happen on next weekend).
PS - Im from russia, if theres anybody from russia too, pm me.
Hi kids, how are, know that me is > you !
Ruler of Galaxys, Destroyer of the Worlds, the great conquerer of star systems, center of universe, omnipresent essence. Yes, thats all me... errmmm... hi :)
@Majesty: When you say too much removal, are you talking about maindeck, or board? I've already conceded that my matchup against aggro is fine, and I'm most likely going to take out either the plagues or the infests (probably the infests) out of the board.
@kimberley: I'm not running maindeck stronghold because in my meta it always dies when I play it. A lot like when I play genesis, actually. my opponents usually take care of getting him into the yard for me. Or they just don't attack. That's cool too.
@Tsunami in the board: Eh, maybe. I know it's great against a lot of decks, but since those decks are practically nonexistant in my meta, I don't know if really need them so much. But having them in the board wouldn't really hurt anything.
@Persecute: Something about this card just rubs me the wrong way. I understand that against Gobs and Solidairty it's a star, but maybe it's the hefty four mana I have to pay for it that I don't like. 'Alright, I play persecute. What? I've already lost to Gobbos and Solidarity? Oops.' It just doesn't seem fast enough.
@everyone who hates extraction: Yeah, I get it. I tried it, it's not really that great. Moving on....
Team Info-Ninjas: Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy.
My Videos: Chiron Beta Prime, Flickr, Re: Your Brains
Problem matchups include but are not limited to Burn (it just goldfishes very quickly) Belcher and Iggy Pop. Your hand disruption against the last two can extend the game or even win it for you on occasion but you typically have to be on the play and have Duress/Therapy in hand and with Therapy you have to not whiff. Belcher can not stand to lose a card as it is, but there are no Guarantees from Iggy Pop because they have their Ghetto YawgWin to regenerate their hand. They can just randomly mise a win off of that which is a problem.
The Game can be a problem but only if you have no way of dealing with Auriok Salvagers. Who gets their hand disruption is pretty important in this match because you can deny them Getting a Gamekeeper in play sometimes if you're lucky and there exists the possibility that you can wish up Withered Wretch and let the Keeper die and then remove him from the game. Putrefy can deal with Salvagers so long as they haven't knocked it out of your grip... This matchup makes a good argument for playing Edicts on the rare occasion that you find somebody playing Darksteel Colossus and they can actually get it out. This is not a commonly played deck in my experience however.
EDIT:
I just got done reading the coverage of GP: Philadelphia and my reaction is this. :angry:
After all of that, we find out that Goblins is the best deck in Legacy? Congrats to Pikula for using superior playskill to annihilate the competition with what appears to be a pretty janky deck. Gerrard's Verdict anyone? Granted, his curve is pretty low, so Bob Maher is unlikely to kill him very quickly (or last very long for that matter) so the possibility of overwhelming your opponent with resource denial is pretty likely, but still. Jankotronic. This just reinforces that it's super important to make sure the deck you choose is very familiar to you. And don't play combo. It apparently sucked pretty bad as maybe 1 combo deck made it to the T8. Lots of Threshold and Gro however. Very interesting.
Your fortune for the day:
Your death will be so violent and protracted that the police will let your family down easy by telling them you were sodomized in half by a horse.
It's been quite awhile since I've posted in this thread, so I thought I would renew the discussion. Since the last post we've seen some large changes in the Legacy Metagame. Some of these changes include the ascendance of Thresh as a leading Archetype, the decline of Landstill, the apparent demise of Solidarity and Survival and the continuing general "goodness" of Goblins.
At the risk of appearing to cling to a corpse I will once again present my latest build of The Rock as I have construed it for Legacy. Voila!
//NAME: G/B Control
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Smother
2 Ravenous Baloth
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Life from the Loam
3 Living Wish
3 Eternal Witness
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
5 Forest
3 Swamp
SB: 1 Genesis
SB: 3 Withered Wretch
SB: 1 Bone Shredder
SB: 1 Ravenous Baloth
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
SB: 1 Ravenous Rats
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach
Some of the biggest recent changes to the build: The addition of Life from the Loam and Wasteland.
This change was made to fight the increasing prevalence of Decks that are reliant on a bank of non-basic lands and sometimes contain no basics whatsoever.
Putrefy has temporarily given way to Smother. This is due to the fact that Smother can Clobber nearly anything that Putrefy can and Obnoxious Artifacts are frequently better killed by Wish->Shaman, Deed, Etc... The extra mana cost of Putrefy became unmanageable with the inclusion of Wasteland anyways.
The mana base has been tinkered with to include extra Fetchlands (the better to Abuse Life from the Loam) thus increasing the color consistency.
The sideboard has been altered as well. When mono-colored combo decks were more prevalent the most logical choice was Persecute, but now that faster decks are in vogue the immediate hand destruction capacity of Hymn to Tourach is more attractive. Graveyard hate has also become a much more serious issue, so the inclusion of Withered Wretch to End Threshold and Opposing Life from the Loam tricks was made as well. I'll include more details about matchups and testing results later.
Your fortune for the day:
Your death will be so violent and protracted that the police will let your family down easy by telling them you were sodomized in half by a horse.
I too have been tinkering around with the Rock for awhile now and I'm actually quite pleased. I played the version I'm currently running in a small sized tournament (about 12+ people) last night and ended up 2nd.
For reference:
The Rock
-Land-
4 Bayou
4 WoodedFoothills
4 Forests
3 Swamp
4 Wastelands
2 Volrath's Stronghold
-Creatures-
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Carven Caryatid
3 Troll Ascetic
3 Ravenous Baloth
2 Eternal Witness
-Other-
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Smother
3 Putrefy
-SB-
4 Engineered Plague
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Diabolic Edict (Supposed to be 2 Perish, but I couldn't get 2 more)
1 Perish
2 Eternal Witness
1 Troll Ascetic
1 Ravenous Baloth
I decided to run a Wishless version, because in previous testing I felt that even though it gave acces to Bullet answers, is was too clunky for my liking. So I cut them altogether and made, what I thought to be, a more straight forward deck. I originally ran WoB, but after seeing Caryatid, I decided to change since the latter could kill things. It also helped me to abuse Birds a little more which I felt I wasn't doing enough in my previous.
I expected alot of Goblins and Thresh. Thresh was nowhere to be found, but Gobs were out in spades. I was going to take notes on the games, but I ended up not getting very many, most of what I'm going to tell is from memory, so bear with me.
Round 1: Shawn with UWb Mill (?) (2-0)
Game 1: I don't know what Shawn is exactly playing so I'm kinda worried. At first I see a Scrubland so I think Deadguy, but he then proceeds to play Planar Void and passes the turn. I play a Forest and a Birds, then pass the turn. We do this dance for a few more turns, while he Forces a Baloth. He then drops Web of Inertia, shutting down my attack phase. He also has Arcane Denial (Which ended up helping me) on an Isochron Scepter. He casts Glimpse the Unthinkable on me twice, but I bait out his counters, landing Deed to blow the board and swing in with 2 Baloth's and a Troll
Game 2: Game 2 pretty much followed the first game. He tapped out on his turn 2 to play Scepter with Arcane Denial and on my turn I play a land and Troll thanks to a first turn Bird. He mumbles alot about not playing his Scepter right and then continues to play Planar Void followed by Web of Inertia. I bait out one of his counters and land Deed again, blowing it at the end of his turn and swinging with Troll. The very next turn he lays down another duo of Void/Web. The game goes on for a long time until he Glimpes me twice leaving only 3 cards in my library. But, again, I bait out his counters by Putrefying his Scepter, which he counters, so I play another Deed, blow it, and swing for the win with Troll and Witness.
Round 2: Adam with Goblins (2-0)
Game 1: Though Adam seemed nice enough, he wasn't a very competent Goblins player. Game 1 he passivley played out his threats and seemed to never take any initiative in combat. I easily handled him with Trolls, Smothers, and Deeds.
Game 2: -4 Duress, +4 Engineered Plague. Again Adam started shyly playing out threats, while I stuck on two lands for about 4-5 turns, but I had 2 Smothers and an Engineered Plague in hand. Around turn 7-8 I finally hit my 3rd land, brought down Plague and rode it into my next one ending the game.
Round 3: Travis with Goblins (2-0)
Game 1: Travis was really cool, we even chatted about Stax builds before the match. I won the roll and played a Swamp and passed. He played Mountain Vial and passed. I layed a Forest, a Birds and Therapied naming Warchief. He showed me Lackey, Lackey, Warchief, Fanatic, Mountain, Incinerator. I ditched the Chief, and then Flashbacked for the Lackeys. The game was really over then, I think I Deeded the board away and won with Troll/Baloth.
Game 2: -4 Duress, +4 Plagues. Game 2 went much like it did with Adam, me laying down a 3rd turn Plague which I rode into the next Plague, all while beating with Trolls.
Round 4: My Friend Nate also playing Goblins (2-0)
Game 1: Because of the way the tournament was being run, we couldn't draw. So Nate tells me that we'll play one game and if I win, he'll give me the match. So we get started, I'm having a slow start, picking off Goblins here and there and at one point Deeding the board away. I play a Troll and he swings putting me down to 3. I topdeck Baloth, play it, and swing for 3. He passes, at which I sac Baloth for some life and then put it on top of my deck with Stronghold to draw again. Seeing this, he conceded.
Round 5: Travis with Goblins (0-2)
I'm going to preface this with the fact that I did not know what style this tournament was being held. I have always played Swiss, this was not so last night. There was also something about the loser's bracket and obviously some guys who didn't know what double elimination was. They kept saying we had to keep playing until everyone had lost twice. So that meant having to wait for the loser's bracket to finish (Which was like its own tournament and they were 2-3 rounds behind everyone else.)
Game 1: Game 1 I had a hand of a Forest and 2 Birds, so I keep. To make this short, I proceeded to draw no land for about 6-7 turns and he managed to draw 3 Fanatics to kill off all 3 of my birds...
Game 2: -4 Duress, +4 Plague. This was utterly the crappiest my deck played all night. I mulliganed twice into a hand of Bayou, Wasteland, Swamp, Deed, Deed, so I keep. I then proceed to pull the opposite of last game. I end up drawing 6-7 lands in a row and not hitting any of my Plagues. I blow both Deeds to stave off so I can at least find something, but he beats me down to 6 and finishes me with a PoP for 8.
Matches: 4-1, Games: 8-2
I got $3 store credit ( :roll: ), but overall I was very pleased with how the deck worked out. All the people who wanted to play Thresh opted for Goblins at the last minute. The guy who normally plays Deadguy decided to play some BUG 'Tog deck from Extended. I hope next time to hit some more diversity, but I was happy with the way the deck executed, save for the last round. I'm also open to any comments or questions, so feel free to ask.
Congratulations on the finish. How did you arrive at the current decklist? I've been considering Rock in Legacy, but I've always leaned more towards the Aggro deck with 8 First Turn mana producers, Hypnotic Specter, Ascetic, possibly Wild Mongrel and Mesmeric Fiend, and with SoFI as a finisher.
Is E-Witness worth it, he can recur Deeds and things, and he's got some good synergy with Duress, Capal Therapy, etc. I love casting Birds, Duress, Cabal Therapy, E-Witness getting the Duress, casting it, flashing back the Therapy, and then putting the Witness back on top to get the Duress again, crazy stuff like that.
The original list I was running was, I felt, more controllish. And after testing with my friend (Nate) online, I just said, "Hey, this isn't working, it's lacking punch." So I debated for a long time on whether to cut the Living Wishes and when I did, I could let the deck take on a more proactive role.
Most of the decks at the tournament just weren't ready for massive (Recurring) hand/creature hate early game and then sick (Troll) and massive (Baloth) creatures playing clean-up. The game against Shawn (UWb Mill) I should have boarded in the other two Witnesses. It's sick to pull stuff like you've stated and also Deeding, play Witness, get Deed, play Deed, pop it for 3, put Witness on top of my library.
But I think you can gear it towards whatever you expect to face. I ended most games just by Deeding while regenerating my Troll, then pounding them in the face while they tried to catch back up.
In the Extended Aggro Rock I ran I didn't even play Deed, but I would definitely want it in Legacy. The deck can just go nuts, and I'm really thinking of busting it out, plus Confidant. Here's a list, off the top of my head:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Putrefy
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Chrome Mox
4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Volrath's Stronghold
As you can see, I've never played this deck in Legacy. There are no Deeds, too much equipment, and Chrome Moxes. 20 Lands, 3 Chrome Moxes, and 8 Turn 1 mana producers means the deck can pop out that Troll Ascetic or Hyppy on turn 2 regularly, and then equip him on turn 3 or 4. That's not as good in Legacy as it is in Extended, and I don't really know if there's a place for this deck. Ideas?
The only thing I'd worry about is if they stop your rush, such as Smothering your equip creature in response or using the splash damage from Gobs and Thresh against you. Though you have Duress and Therapy to off set this. But at least your threats aren't limited to only Troll and Hyppie, even the mana producers can pick up a weapon and charge in. I'm not sure about the Moxes, unless you had something ideally unimportant to pitch (two Elves for example).
I was actually going to mention Confidant to you as I saw it mentioned somewhere else in a more aggro-ish Rock. Your build could probably support Putrefy better with all the accel. Maybe if you cut the Moxes and a Putrefy, you could fit in 4 Pernicious Deed, since you said you wanted it. The thing with that is that it's pretty unsynergistic with your creatures and equipment as anything less than 3 hits Birds, Elves, Jitte, Moxes (if you end up playing them) and Confidant (your extra draw). Going higher takes out Troll, Hyppie, and Sword.
That's most of the reason that I'm not running the Deeds. I still would like to find a way to fit in E-Witness, but I've never tested it, and right now the Troll's untargetability just seem better.
The Moxes can go, it's just that in Extended they put you a turn ahead of everyone else, dropping two mana creatures on turn 1 can mean a turn 3 equipped Troll swinging, and turn 1 Confidant is a really fun play.
I've thought about Nimble Mongoose too, as he's just beats, and I've also thought about removing the equipment for other finishers. That would probably mean dropping the Elves, adding in Mongoose, and dropping the equippment for something like Baloth (or a white splash for Hierarch.) What do you think about that?
In the varient I play I use Oversold Cemetery. It's quite good, esp with dredge in town. I'ts great in place of deed cause you can rip resources out of your yard via recurring witness. You dredge away all your goodies and she rips em all back home.
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