Ok, this is a joint project I'd like to setup for the board to contribute to. The basic idea is to take a UW Control shell, based around Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top and then give it 3 heads to kill with.
Between the main deck and the sideboard there should be 3 discreet methods of finishing the opponent off. Not 3 creatures, as an example, but 3 kill conditions that are mutually exclusive types and fully supported in the deck. The sideboard can be fully transformational as long as the main deck plus the sideboard support the 3 head concept.
Here's my take on the basic shell, with blanks left to be filled in:
Creatures (0) Blanks 0 to 18
Spells (23) Blanks 0 to 18
4x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Brainstorm
4x Force Of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
Lands (12) Blanks 7 to 11
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
4x Tundra
Sideboard (0) Blanks 15
I'll throw out the first proposal, which I am certain is flawed but it will give us a place to start in terms of showing how the template works:
UW Hydra - Foolofatook 1.0
Creatures (8)
3x Serra Avenger
3x Serendib Efreet
2x Serra Sphinx
Spells (31)
4x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Wrath of God
2x Echoing Truth
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Tsabo's Web
1x Arcane Laboratory
1x Moat
Lands (21)
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
4x Tundra
6x Island
3x Plains
Sideboard (15)
3x Forsaken City
2x Stasis
1x Frozen Aether
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale
4x Stifle
1x Phyrexian Dreadnaught
1x Tsabo's Web
1x Arcane Laboratory
1x Moat
The maindeck is a fairly simple control shell that is planning to get a Counterbalance operational and then take tempo and beat the opponent down with flyers once the situation stabilizes. It's got some answers against just about anything and ways to go get them. It uses Serra Sphinxes mainly because of the transition to Stasis in the sideboard, otherwise Sea Drakes would be preferred.
Kill condition one in the main deck is the flyers and Countertop to protect them. There are 3 discreet hosers in Moat (Threshold, Goblins), Arcane Laboratory (Storm-based combo) and Tsabo's Web (Landstill, 42 Lands) that can be fetched up if needed. Echoing Truth offers protection against tokens and multiple Leylines of the Void as well as working with Counterbalance and Stasis out of the sideboard. Engineered Explosives is just a good toolkit item to have. The anti-creature suite is fairly standard and effective against most creature based themes until Counterbalance begins to lock things down.
Kill condition two out of the side board is the Stasis suite (3 Forsaken City, 2 Stasis, 1 Frozen Aether, 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale) which basically offers a different locking mechanism that functions in conjunction with Counterbalance/Top. The 4 Enlightened Tutor maindeck make it more likely the Stasis will be put in play effectively early on, hindering the opponent and creating a soft-lock. I see Stasis as an additional device against heavy creature aggro and against slow control that tries to use sweepers to grab the initiative. The part of the suite that will tune in individually on occasion would be The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale (against Empty the Warrens.)
Kill condition three out of the sideboard is the Stifle/Phyrexian Dreadnaught combo that has 4 Enlightened Tutors maindeck to go looking for the Dreadnaught when it's in the deck. The part of the suite that will tune in separately is the 4 Stifles against any deck whose main threats are Stifleable.
The other pieces of the sideboard (Tsabo's Web, Arcane Laboratory and Moat) are just reinforcers to get more of a hoser in the deck when it is appropriate.
That's my initial take on a UW Hydra build. Please comment and add your own variations. I would really like to have a playable combo in the sideboard that can tune in for an instant win when you go off but all the variations I know are much too clunky to use.
Please stick with two colors and UW.
how is this any different from any fish deck and adding counterbalance and top?
just wondering, dont take it as a flame.
cool name though!
Id like to milk that oreo... split it in half...and lick all that sweet sweet candy off. mmmmm... oreos....
Any particular reason for Serra Sphinx over like, a good creature?
It's definitely a fish variant, the reliance on Counterbalance as the main piece gives it a different play style in my opinion. It's tempo-mentally better suited to CounterTop than a lot of the decks trying to include them.
The primary difference between the deck and fish is that it is actively trying to hose various archetypes with one-ofs. Tsabo's Web, Arcane Laboratory and Moat are win cards in and of themselves against many decks if they are protected. The trade-off is far fewer creatures than you normally find in fish.
The Stasis sideboard. 3 Serendib Efreets come out along with a few basic lands and a one-of and the Stasis suite goes in. The 5 actual win conditions then become 3 Serra Avengers and 2 Serra Sphinxes. That the Sphinxes pitch to FoW makes them playable. That's mostly how they get used BTW, an easy pitch to FoW.
UW you say? Add some help of awakenings and brainfreeze for the combo head of the hydra. Maybe some E.Tutor's too.
This deck's body is very similar to a deck that I developed over a year ago, but which unfortunately was not well-suited to the metagame at the time. It's much better suited to today's metagame, however. I've been working on updating it over these last few weeks, and I'll be posting the new list when it's ready. While the concept is slightly different, I'll post a link to my old thread (below) in case you can perhaps glean something helpful from what was posted.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...t=pride+parade
Turning it into Stasis post-board is interesting--very interesting--but I'm not convinced that it really works as a solution against problematic decks (from my own testing, I found Goblins to be a very challenging matchup, and the similar natures of our decks would seem to indicate that it's difficult for you as well)--but hell, what do I know? Let me know either way if it really solves the more problematic matchups.
From my experience with a similar deck, I can tell you that I don't think you need Enlightened Tutor at all. Since you're only using it (MD) to fetch one of two enchantments, I'd rather use those slots to up the Moat/Lab count, since Top and Brainstorm can dig for what you need very easily.
Also, if anyone's concerned about Moat or its cost (money-wise, that is), I'd advise Propaganda instead. Which actually brings me to another (small) concern: three is still a fairly important Balance cost (though two is perhaps the most important); do you have enough three-cost cards to properly abuse 'Balance/Top?
One last thing: in the sideboard, Forsaken City is probably better off as Undiscovered Paradise.
@ everyone but FoolofaTook: RTFT, RTFT (READ THE FUCKING THREAD).
@ FoolofaTook: Nice deck, but this is not fish. I just have to say that, and right now Fish runs only 12 creatures. It has undergone a Renaissance recently after I tried to make it bwu thresh, and it now uses counterbalance. Enough thread derailment. The stasis kill is a good idea, although I'm sure that there are better vigilance creatures than Serra Sphinx (although that is a nice piece of tech over Serra Angel), and I think that the Stasis Kill should stay. About that combo kill.... Helm of Awakening, Sensei's divining Top x2
and Brain Freeze. Clunky? Hella yes, but you might notice that 3 of them are artifacts, the SDT's are 4 of maindeck, and you only need one of the other two cards, one of which (Helm) will probably be a one-of and tutored for. Just a thought.
On the topic of E. Tutor: Do you think that this deck will have a problem with Threshold's random ass Perdict milling your tutor targets?
On the topic of Stasis: I see 10 islands, some Stasises (stasis'?, Stasiss?, Stasis [understood plural????????????????????????]). I see no Daze. This slightly bothers me. Why no Dazes? They pretty much have uber synergy with Stasis, and this deck needs to have the early game advantage it provides (somewhat like how threshold can force down that early ass Counterbalance + Top by about turn 3 and proceed to fuck your couch with it).
I only see 8 Counters (Counterbalance + Force of Will). Why is this so? It bothers me.
That is all I have to contribute right now, so I will close with this:
I like this deck. I like the idea alot. I'm probably going to steal it, make it Ubw, and run it (whenever I get the cash).
It's a good thought. The minor problem is only 3 SDT's, although 4 could be managed. I've thought about pulling the Dreadnought kill out, since its main function is to have a theoretical turn 3 kill option. the flaw of course is the extreme unlikeliness of setting that up with only one DN in the deck and with either a counter or StP or artifact removal getting rid of him poste-haste. I could replace him with the 4th SDT and bring it in with the rest of the combo.
I think given it's a CounterTop deck you've added the combo option to it.
Yes, it's possible there'll be some issues there. I generally use the ETutors in only a few specific ways, some of which help avoid predict.
I'll use it on the play when I have two lands or less in my draw and I really want to go get an SDT to help find more land. This always happens end-of-opponent-turn one, they can FoW or even Daze (I don't mind the Daze because it's tempo for me and evens up the mana situation some) but they generally do not have the mana to Predict yet.
I'll use it after Counterbalance is down to go get a SDT if I need it. If I have FoW or Brainstorm in hand I frequently can counter the Predict.
I'll use it as a hard counter if I need to stop a spell and do not have the right card in top 3. I cast Enlightened Tutor and pull the right card to the top. I activate Counterbalance and if they Predict I activate SDT to put the card second, where it is exposed when they mill the top card.
You have to give something up to get the after the fact removal in the deck. In this case that something is Daze. I'd have to drop the creatures and go to manlands to to be able to fit Daze into the concept. Part of the idea is to use Moat, Tsabo's Web and the flyers to get an edge on Landstill. Playing manlands really hurts that concept.
8 creatures, 4 StP, 2 Wrath, 2 Echoing Truth (better than counters against most permanents at the expense of not stopping non-permanents), 4 highly specific hosers that can be tutored for. Then you have the engine of 4 Counterbalance, 3 SDT and 4 Enlightened Tutors. It gets really hard to squeeze in extra counters.
As I said above it would take manlands and greater vulnerability to things like Back to Basics, Tsabo's Web and Blood Moon for me to fit more counters. I definitely won't go below 21 lands, which feels bare minimum for a deck with ony 7 cantrip devices in it.
When is Goblins not problematic? :)
I think the deck will be draw dependent against Goblins and I would not expect it to be a 50/50 deck against the little red men. It's possible that play will prove otherwise. I have not tested the deck much except against Threshold and Landstill and it holds its own against them.
Important disclaimer: this is not my idea, somebody else a lot smarter than me came up with it first.
The Enlightened Tutors are to fetch the CB/Top combo, to fetch the hosers and to act as hard counterspells once Counterbalance is in play. There are 0,1,2,3 and 4 casting cost artifacts or enchantments in the deck which can be fetched topside to counter a spell and then submerged with a reshuffle or Top. It's a beautiful effect to watch in play and it makes Arcane Laboratory into a valuable card to have in the deck vs anybody, even if they are not playing combo, ditto for Moat and Tsabo's Web.
Unfortunately Undiscovered Paradise does not work with Stasis. You get to return it to hand at the beginning of your Untap phase, however Stasis removes the Untap phase.
Urgh. It would have helped if I'd remembered that E.Tutor nabs artifacts as well. Never mind. =/
Unfortunately Undiscovered Paradise does not work with Stasis. You get to return it to hand at the beginning of your Untap phase, however Stasis removes the Untap phase.
Maybe you can tell; it's early in the morning here. My apologies for my idiocy.
This is an interesting project, and a cool deck. I hope some of the inspiration for this method is derived from Zvi's article/legacy worlds preperation. The source thread discussing the premium article is here and if you have a premium account you can read the actual article here. Obviously the base is incredably solid and if you look at the deck that Zvi wound up playing, you can see that his deck has two plans of attack in crucible/manlands/standstill or eternal dragon, both of which facilitate the other and play multiple roles in the deck, while being increadably compact win conditions. The trick is that with the solid counterbalance plan, winning is pretty much arbitrary because you typically lock the games up incredably fast. If this is the case, you might want to include Zvi's deck in the main post, because it illustrates the point really well.
Even cards like arcane labratory or tsabo's web seem redundant because counterbalance is hell on TES and Moat/pithing needle is a really solid lock against landstill.
The problem of redundancy is one of the trickiest issues with the "goal" of the project, trying to fit three unique win conditions into the same deck. I mean, sure statis is a different lock than moat, but if your opponent is packing krosan grips in the board it won't make a lot of difference. Simularly the stifle dreadnaught plan is good against storm, but I'd probably rather just run the stifles because if they can't win through stifle, counterbalance, force of will, I'd rather hold onto the stifle and kill them with sphynx then Tutor for 1x dreadnaught and use my stifle just to get him into play.
It's just hard to think of 3 win conditions so different in Magic that commonly played answers don't deal with multiple conditions at the same time. Traditionally, decks with strong transformational sb's alternate between aggro/control and combo game plans. The control pieces stay the same, while the creatures and a non-combat win condition alternate between boarding. None of your three heads currently win without attacking, just the lock pieces change, and even then those changes are marginal because they still rely on enchantments staying in play. In Zvi's article/forum post he discusses how in testing he was trying to use the shell with a Rings/time vault combo maindeck, that boarded into Cephalid Breakfest, but ultimately he opted for fewer (but more consistant) win conditions with more counter backup because the combo's would randomly lose to weird hate or just not having optimal cards.
All that said, interesting combos in blue/white/artifact off the top of my head:
helm, top, brainfreeze
rings, time vault
mana severance, beltcher
beltcher, proteus staff, man lands
mindslaver, bringer of the white dawn
second chance, skull of orm
teferi, orim's chant, scepter
illusions, donate
shared fate, jank
the ceph life sb looks like this:
4 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Nomad en-Kor
1 Shuko
2 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sky Hussar
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Karmic Guide
1 Cabal Therapy
And then a possible creature suite for, say, a straight UW flyers style deck might look like:
4x Meddling Mage
3x Serra Avenger
4x Serendib Efreet
4x Sea Drake
or something. You really want a bigger creature in there, because you still don't have a good answer to Tarmogoyf so maybe you go:
4x Meddling Mage
4x Trinket Mage
4x Stifle
1x Vision Charm
2x Dreadnaught
But that's not very good with moat.
I don't know. Zvi makes a convincing argument with his list for a more conventional landstill style kill, just because the lock is really strong and recurring threats take up very little room yet pack a lot of resiliancy. Especially when eternal dragon fixes your mana, shuffles your deck and beats for 5. Hard to argue with that. It's also hard to argue with freeing up sideboard slots for non-combo answers that really help shore up problem matchups. Specifically goblins, which tends to race slow combos alot better then it races hate like Tividar's Crusade.
While flexible win conditions are cool, if they don't specifically improve certain matchups they consume vital slots.
Someone, somewhere, posted a "three-headed" decklist, and I still have it and playing it occasionally. Winning three different games with StifleNought, Doomsday combo, and Wizard beats backed by Counterbalance and Stifle+Wasteland - without sideboarding - is one of the greatest feeling ever.
The list is here. The Thirsts used to be Mystical Tutor, IIRC, which is why there is stuff like the singleton Echoing Truth. I didn't test the change much, so you may want to try it out with the Tutors first.
// Lands
1 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [PR] Underground Sea
2 [RAV] Watery Grave
// Creatures
3 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
// Spells
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [PR] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [VI] Helm of Awakening
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [PR] Force of Will
1 [SC] Brain Freeze
3 [NE] Daze
1 [DS] Echoing Truth
2 [WL] Doomsday
1 [SOK] Ideas Unbound
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge (Mystical Tutor?)
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Trickbind
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
With a manabase like that, you should definitely run at least a singleton Back to Basics somewhere. You have four Tundras which get hit by it, where other decks have their entire manabase, or close to it.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
@Wobbles - the inspiration for CounterTop/ETutor did come from Zvi's list. I really liked the usage of tutors to topdeck stuff for play and in conjunction with Counterbalance.
I wanted a more conventional renaissance of UW though so I concentrated on shutting down Landstill instead of making a Landstill variant. One of the ancient methods of killing in UW was to take tempo and get out a flyer in the mid-game and just run them down from there, so that became kill one.
Another of the ancient lock mechanisms for UW was Stasis and I figured the CounterTop/Tutor engine would resolve one of the long-standing problems with that archetype, that being the ease with which a draw could be absolute ass with too many combo cards in it and not enough meat. Being able to run the effect off of just 7 cards, in which 3 of them functioned as turn 1 mana seemed plausible given the ability to tutor for what you need.
The StifleNaught was just to add a 3rd head for the time being. It's probably going away to the combo that raharu suggested above.
@Illisius - Back to Basics was an option. Tsabo's Web fills the tutorable 2 slot for Counterbalance and it's a cantrip which is important in a deck with as little draw as this one. I also wanted the deck to get in its own way as little as possible. Control of this sort always lives on the edge anyway and I didn't want to be 2 percenting myself as I made plays. I might still go back to Back to Basics if I see the deck having real problems with 3 and 4 color decks.
@Nihil - That's a very good list. I want to stay with 2 colors for the time being and UW. I'd also like to have at least 1 head and maybe 2 in the sideboard so that opponents have to plan for a much wider threat range while the deck itself remains tightly wound in a given game.
@GGoaswerfraiejen - I made the same mistake the first time I reconsidered Stasis. I was looking at Undiscovered Paradise in my hand during a test match months ago with a different deck when I suddenly realized it was useless with the Stasis I was holding. :)
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