Page 1 of 133 123451151101 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 2658

Thread: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

  1. #1

    emidln's tendrils lists

    This archetype is extremely customizable. The basic requirements are blue/black fetchlands, brainstorm, dark ritual, lion's eye diamond, and tendrils of agony. Everything else is basically up in the air. There have been numerous suggested builds with very specific strengths and weaknesses. These builds seem to be the most focused and resilient. I do not list sideboards. Sideboards require careful assessment of what you plan on facing, what your maindeck is weak to, and what you can accept to lose to (and how often). Check the thread for example sideboards.

    Quote Originally Posted by UBw Street Wraith by emidln
    // Manabase
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Plains
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Tundra
    1 Scrubland

    // Acceleration
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Cabal Ritual
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond

    // Cantrips
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Ponder
    4 Street Wraith

    // Protection
    3 Orim's Chant
    1 Extirpate
    1 Wipe Away

    // Tutors
    4 Mystical Tutor
    4 Infernal Tutor

    // Storm Engines
    2 Ill-Gotten Gains
    1 Infernal Contract

    // Win Conditions
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Empty the Warrens
    Quote Originally Posted by 5c Doomsday by emidln
    // Manabase
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Tundra
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Scrubland
    1 Badlands
    1 Bayou

    // Acceleration
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Cabal Ritual
    1 Lotus Petal

    // Protection
    4 Duress
    4 Orim's Chant
    1 Krosan Grip

    // Cantrips
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Sensei's Divining Top

    // Tutors
    4 Mystical Tutor
    4 Doomsday

    // Storm Engines
    1 Ill-Gotten Gains
    1 Infernal Contract
    1 Meditate

    // Win Conditions
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    Quote Originally Posted by 3c Doomsday+Infernal Tutor by Breathweapon
    // Manabase
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Volcanic Island
    1 Island

    // Acceleration
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Cabal Ritual
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal

    // Cantrips
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Sensei's Divining Top

    // Protection
    4 Duress
    1 Wipe Away

    // Tutors
    4 Lim-dul's Vault
    4 Doomsday
    4 Infernal Tutor

    // Storm Engines
    1 Ill-Gotten Gains
    1 Meditate

    // Win Conditions
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Empty the Warrens
    Last edited by emidln; 09-02-2008 at 09:43 PM.

  2. #2

    Re: Fetchland Tendrils

    You deck could be as good as Hulk Flash, and never see play because of the price tag. Nobody is shelling 600 for the playset of Tutors (400 if e-bayed).

    It looks quite solid, however i never think it will be anygood based off the fact it's too costly.

    It looks solid though, and maybe for MWS tournies?

  3. #3

    Re: Fetchland Tendrils

    1
    Last edited by emidln; 08-06-2008 at 07:34 PM.
    BZK! - Storm Boards

    Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
    Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.

  4. #4

    Re: Fetchland Tendrils

    you'll sell me 5 for $125!!!


    Send me PM, done deal...

  5. #5
    Banned

    Join Date

    Oct 2006
    Location

    NoVA
    Posts

    951

    Re: Fetchland Tendrils

    125 a piece you realize, not 5 for 125.

  6. #6

    Re: Fetchland Tendrils

    Who cares what the cards cost. If he has a good deck it will be played.
    If you do not want to spend cash, go to a casual tournament.

  7. #7

    Re: Fetchland Tendrils

    Considering there are only two Grim Tutors and they're sideboarded, that doesn't seem like a huge obstacle to building the deck.

    Burning Wish is the best replacement I can think of, and while it's really good in TES, it's of course less synergistic with Ill-Gotten Gains.

  8. #8

    Re: Fetchland Tendrils

    Quote Originally Posted by Nydaeli View Post
    Considering there are only two Grim Tutors and they're sideboarded, that doesn't seem like a huge obstacle to building the deck.

    Burning Wish is the best replacement I can think of, and while it's really good in TES, it's of course less synergistic with Ill-Gotten Gains.
    Grim Tutor functions more of a Mystical Tutor than an Infernal Tutor in the deck. It usually finds accel or protection. It's rare when you have to use Grim Tutor to loop for the win. It'd probably be acceptable to just try to draw your way out of the situation using Draw4s, or possibly Plunge into Darkness, but there' little to not guarantee you hit something relevant.
    BZK! - Storm Boards

    Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
    Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.

  9. #9

    Re: Fetchland Tendrils

    Hi,

    This is fun, because Breathweapon, was written a primer about almost the same deck only you beat him.

    I like the deck and am playing it for some time now. I only don't like your Confidants in the main. I shipped them to the SB. I don't play Grim Tutor in the sideboard too. Sure it is nice in control matchups, but in my meta not needed. The best replacement for it, would probably be Infernal Contract or Cruel Bargain.

    The difference I have with my list are

    -1 Badlands
    -1 Swamp
    -4 Dark Confidant

    +1 Underground Sea
    +1 Tendrils of Agony
    +1 Ponder
    +2 Orim's Chant
    +1 Empty the Warrens

    All of them are quite logic options. It makes the deck as consistent as possible, without Grim Tutor. I do have a single Grim Tutor, but decided not to play it.
    The only strange change is Empty the Warrens, This change is pure for testing reasons, to help the matchup against Counterbalance.

    As for reference here is my sideboard:

    1 Echoing Truth
    2 Empty the Warrens
    1 Chain of Vapor
    1 Wipe Away
    4 Dark Confidant
    2 Abeyance
    2 Rebuild
    2 Red Elemental Blast

    The Empty the Warrens goes to 1, IF I keep 2 in the maindeck, and Red Elemental Blast, might become Draw fours, Abeyance or Grim Tutor.

    Greetings,

    BB

    EDIT: What about calling this deck 10CC, CC stands for Cantrip Combo, your lists play 10 cantrips. And it's a name of a band, like Iggy-Pop
    Last edited by Benie Bederios; 12-03-2007 at 09:13 AM.

  10. #10

    Re: Fetchland Tendrils

    I think you're throwing your Threshold and Storm match up with 2x vs 4x Orim's Chant, because you never want to Mystical Tutor for Orim's Chant if you can help it, keeping Counterbalance off the table for a turn is the difference between 1-0 and 0-1 and the Combo match up comes down to who has the most Chants/Abeyances between the MD and the SB. Chant is even a Time Walk against aggro, so I can't see any conceivable reason to run less than a set.

    Single Burning Wish > Second Ill Gotten Gains, that single Burning Wish does so much it's ridiculous. Even a single Diminishing Returns would be better than the Second Ill Gotten Gains, because it diversifies the deck's storm engines.

    Draw 4's vs Dark Confidants vs Mental Note is kind of a toss up, all three cards do the same thing in three different ways. I think Dark Confidant is the worst of the three, because he gives removal a target and takes turns to generate card advantage. Draw 4's are just good at +2 CA for it and a Ritual, but Draw 4's get countered where Mental Notes don't and getting Draw 4's Forced or Dazed is a bitch.

    SBing extra Empty the Warrens, other than for Burning Wish, is never worth it. When I was testing Note Tendrils, the best SBing plan I came across was SBing in 4 Abeyance and 4 Dark Confidant for 4 Mental Note and 4 Street Wraith.

    I can understand the 2xTendrils configuration if you're using Dark Confidant, but Draw 4's feed off of the number of Tendrils in your deck. Being able to assemble a double Tendrils kill asap is what makes these Tendrils decks so good. I'm almost always aiming for the double Tendrils kill unless I luck sack LED vs aggro or LED + Chant against aggro-control.
    Quote Originally Posted by wastedlife View Post
    Breathweapon, I regret saying this but ... I've been liking you more and more every day.

  11. #11
    Neuromancer
    jegger's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2007
    Location

    Local Group > Milky Way Galaxy > Orion Arm > Solar System > Earth > Italy > Vicenza
    Posts

    70

    Re: Fetchland Tendrils

    I'm playing this deck and I'm surprise for its speed and consistency.

    Cantrips help to build a perfect hand before combo and decrease the number of mulligans in comparison to others combo decks.

    Bob is my favourite card in mtg, but I don't like to give to opponent an use for his Stp or f/i, so I put them in side for control matchup and discards decks.
    Instead I put 2x draw4. Playing usually TES I don't like them, but in this deck they are very good and they give an opportunity to combo when we can't use graveyard for ill-gotten for example.

    I also have tried in this deck diminishing returns because I want a win condition that don't use graveyard, but this deck has a more density of lands and cards with higher CC than TES. Then, if we can't use graveyard to win (because there is a crypt/leyline into play and we don't find a bouncer) there are draw4 like alternative way to win. So diminishing returns is rejected.

    I don't use wipe away maindeck because usually I play with more decks that use artifact lock like trini or chalice, but if the number of counterbalance decks is higher I shift the truth in sb for wipe away. I think it's a meta choice.

    I don't understand if the 2° ill-gotten is useful or not. Often it is a bad draw, but sometimes we can need a chain of ill-gotten to win or the first is discarded.

    I'm not a fan of EtW win. I think it's a my weakness, because often I force over the limit the ToA win, but it's a my play style so I cut all red lands from the decks. Now for EtW there are only lotus petal and lion'eye diamond. With more basic lands the deck is more stable to wasteland and tedious cards like magus/blood moon and ghost quarter. Cards like pyroclasm in sb can easily to be replaced from massacre.

    Paradoxically I have space in side and I don't know how to fill it.
    Against control I don't side over 8 cards, and against lock cards I don't put more than 4-5 bouncers (hurkyl, rebuild, chain, wipe away, echoing).
    So usually I have 1-2 slots free. I don't have grim tutor and I don't like them very much. I'm trying stifle , hydroblast and extirpate .

    Lastly but not for last I'm playing 3 protections maindeck and 1 it's not orim's chant. It's pact of negation! I see that sometimes I try to win with orim's protection. But opponent counters it and then, when I play ritual, led, ill-gotten,..my opponent take in hand FoW and other stuff so I can't play ritual+infernal tutor+other stuff because opponent can counter them. If I take orim's from grave I need totally in pool 2 white mana (1 before ill-gotten 1 then) and often it's not easily to have them in pool. Perhaps it's not good, perhaps is better in side, but I like pact in 1x, we have mystical tutor that is the glue of the deck.

  12. #12

    Re: Fetchland Tendrils

    I found the best idea is to simply wait until you can combo through multiple counters. Usually this involves sculpting a hand with accel, chant, and a tendrils. There really isn't a need to win while you still have life points, so you can take a lot of time setting this up. Using this strategy, it's extremely easy to beat Threshold.

    I think you'll find Ill-Gotten Gains is a lot better if you are using Orim's Chant. It's extremely rare that you want to return Chant with Ill-Gotten Gains if you play like I suggested, but the ability to win against discard in the traditional manner of throwing artifacts down and then topdecking a tutor effect ftw is huge.

    I'm personally a huge fan of Empty the Warrens, although I tend to use it to apply pressure as I'm setting up for Tendrils rather than going all in with it. The exception is turn one where I've been known to go all in rather aggressively for an ETW of 10 or more.

    Due to testing with The_Demon, we removed bob as well for 1 Ponder, 1 Orim's Chant, 2 Grim Tutor. In my metagame there are a lot of maindeck counterbalances, so the Grim Tutors provide extra ways of finding Orim's Chant and Wipe Away.

    I honestly don't understand the fascination with cards that don't use the graveyard. They all quite awful and completely unnecessary. In a deck with 10-12 cantrips, 8-14 tutor effects/large card draw spells, empty the warrens, 2-7 time walks^W^Wchant effects, uncounterable maindeck bounce, and multiple tendrils, it's extremely easy to ignore cards like Leyline of the Void, Extirpate Tormod's Crypt, Jotun Grunt, etc, etc. You have so many options:

    - Force in an opponent into a counter war with Chant to stop Tutor + Tendrils = Double Tendrils resulting in a single Tendrils being lethal anyway.
    - Empty the Warrens using Orim's Chant as a Time Walk to guarantee damage.
    - Empty the Warrens backed up by a mini Tendrils.
    - Bouncing the graveyard hate and going off.
    - Resolving Orim's Chant/Abeyance (stops Extirpate, can stop TCrypt).
    - Natural double tendrils.

    I don't think you could ever convince me to play cards like Pact of Negation that make more of a control deck relevant. The really huge thing about Chant is that it can't resolve or you win the game. This simply isn't true with Pact (or any countermagic), especially mid game against Thresh/Landstill where they likely have Force + Stifle + Spell Snare and maybe Counterspell. By using Chant, the only cards that are really relevant are unconditional hard counters like Force and Counterspell.
    Last edited by emidln; 12-13-2007 at 02:35 PM.
    BZK! - Storm Boards

    Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
    Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.

  13. #13

    Re: Fetchland Tendrils

    Diminishing Returns isn't used to circumvent the graveyard, altho' it can be used to do so, it's used because of its speed and the opponent's answers. If UGR Threshold drops Tormod's Crypt, you have to consider whether or not A) you have the time to 2 Tendrils vs Counterbalance B) your opponent has removal for Empty the Warrens C) your opponent has Stifle etc. There are times when Diminishing Returns is the right choice, and the problem is those times aren't apparent until your faced with them and you have a feel for them, so Diminishing Returns looks terrible on paper and plays terrific in practice. Also, you can't tutor for Ill Gotten Gains or Empty the Warrens and cast it in the same sense you can do so with Diminishing Returns. Diminishing Returns is the only card that can win the game, or get you back in the game, all by itself. It single handedly takes you out of top deck mode, which is where Storm combo decks lose games against control.

    It's a good card, and it's the kind of card you only miss when you need. I never understood Fetchland Tendrils aversion to it in the first place, having a full set of Tendrils and the lands needed to hard cast the card is great.

    Pact of Negation has its place, it either protects the Orim's Chant or it protects 2 Tendrils, so if a deck had a fundamental turn of 2 with either plan, then Pact of Negation would be viable. The problem is that the deck isn't fast enough to exploit Pact of Negation, and the deck is slow enough, or land dense enough, to use Abeyance.

    Edit: Cutting Volcanic Island is bad, ETW is one of the deck's outs against a Chalice of the Void, and you have no way to produce red mana when it's set at zero.
    Quote Originally Posted by wastedlife View Post
    Breathweapon, I regret saying this but ... I've been liking you more and more every day.

  14. #14
    Neuromancer
    jegger's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2007
    Location

    Local Group > Milky Way Galaxy > Orion Arm > Solar System > Earth > Italy > Vicenza
    Posts

    70

    Re: Fetchland Tendrils

    I found the best idea is to simply wait until you can combo through multiple counters. Usually this involves sculpting a hand with accel, chant, and a tendrils. There really isn't a need to win while you still have life points, so you can take a lot of time setting this up. Using this strategy, it's extremely easy to beat Threshold.
    Uhm, sure if I can I take time before I start the combo, so I can build an optimal hand against opponent's counters, but there is a small critter called tarmogoyf that can do a small pressure and put an high clock... So often I can't wait all this time.

    I think you'll find Ill-Gotten Gains is a lot better if you are using Orim's Chant. It's extremely rare that you want to return Chant with Ill-Gotten Gains if you play like I suggested, but the ability to win against discard in the traditional manner of throwing artifacts down and then topdecking a tutor effect ftw is huge.
    My english is bad, perhaps I don't succeed to explain what I think. Sorry.
    For example: I play chant, my opponent counter it. Now I can play infernal tutor sacrificing LED and taking ill-gotten, but if I plan this project my opponent takes from grave FoW and other stuff and he can counter my key spell. So sometime for example if I can take orim, IT, cabal ritual from grave with ill-gotten but I haven't enough white mana for double orim. Yeah there are others ways I can take to win in these situations like EtW or infernal contract but you can try to consider those situations that are compromise (like e.e. on the table or I'm at 1 life) and I can only do a mortal ToA FTW.

    I'm not a fan of EtW, especially in a more slow combo deck than TES or 2LB.

    I honestly don't understand the fascination with cards that don't use the graveyard. They all quite awful and completely unnecessary. In a deck with 10-12 cantrips, 8-14 tutor effects/large card draw spells, empty the warrens, 2-7 time walks^W^Wchant effects, uncounterable maindeck bounce, and multiple tendrils, it's extremely easy to ignore cards like Leyline of the Void, Extirpate Tormod's Crypt, Jotun Grunt, etc, etc.
    Yeah, it's right. Often cards like tormod's, leyline aren't the problem. Especially postside when we can side in more bouncers effects. The problem is when these cards are supported by a wall of counters or other lock elements plus a fast clock.
    For example against ichorid combo deck, leyline is not a great problem because we can bounce it and then start the combo. The problem is that we often spend a turn to remove leyline (mystical for chain,...) and with another turn my opponent can kill me.
    Diminishing Returns isn't used to circumvent the graveyard
    You never play diminishing return for this reason. !? Perhaps I play wrong. But when I played TES and my opponent had into play tormod/leyline,.. I considered diminishing like a plan B instead of my sure win with my plan A via ill-gotten.
    But here I don't like diminishing return.

    Pact of Negation has its place, it either protects the Orim's Chant or it protects 2 Tendrils, so if a deck had a fundamental turn of 2 with either plan, then Pact of Negation would be viable. The problem is that the deck isn't fast enough to exploit Pact of Negation, and the deck is slow enough, or land dense enough, to use Abeyance.
    How many is pact of negation played? Is this a surprise card? Yeah and for this reason I can steal a game with it. I don't like abeyance because it requires 2 mana. Especially it requires white mana. Often I don't have mana for both orim and abeyance to start the combo and I can't wait to draw the second white to start. Sometimes the situation is this:
    I: orim
    he: FoW on orim
    I: pact on FoW
    he: FoW on orim
    Now we have: 4 storm count, I spend 1 mana and 2 cards, my opponent spends 0 mana and 4 cards (all blue and often 1-2 are daze/stifle/snare).
    Now often I can play easily the combo. If I play ill-gotten FTW I can take pact, ritual, IT and I play pact on his FoW he returned from grave without the need of other white mana (and if I'm using abeyance instead of orim in total I need 3 white mana! Too much!).

    Edit: Cutting Volcanic Island is bad, ETW is one of the deck's outs against a Chalice of the Void, and you have no way to produce red mana when it's set at zero.
    Yeah perhaps it's right. I put again into the deck a red mana source.

    Ok sorry for my english and for my tedious aromentations.
    The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel. - Neuromancer

  15. #15
    Win or lose, it begins with...
    Arsenal's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2007
    Location

    Milwaukee, WI
    Posts

    2,232

    Re: Fetchland Tendrils

    emidln -

    I like your current decklist. Is your "Current List" still performing well or have you reverted back to your "outdated tech"? Ever thought of using Burning Wish in there? You mentioned you were less than satisfied with that second Ill-Gotten Gains.

  16. #16

    Re: Fetchland Tendrils

    Also, you can't tutor for Ill Gotten Gains or Empty the Warrens and cast it in the same sense you can do so with Diminishing Returns.
    Why not? I routinely win by casting small Empty the Warrens for blockers or minor pressure while I rebuild. You don't need to waste a lot of resources to do it either. A lotus petal, maybe an LED, Dark Rit, and Empty. Boom, 8 turns of safety from a goyf or a 3 turn clock. If they deal with your clock you don't even care because you are just buying time to use tutors and cantrips to setup the Tendrils.

    Quote Originally Posted by BreathWeapon View Post
    Diminishing Returns isn't used to circumvent the graveyard, altho' it can be used to do so, it's used because of its speed and the opponent's answers. If UGR Threshold drops Tormod's Crypt, you have to consider whether or not A) you have the time to 2 Tendrils vs Counterbalance B) your opponent has removal for Empty the Warrens C) your opponent has Stifle etc. There are times when Diminishing Returns is the right choice, and the problem is those times aren't apparent until your faced with them and you have a feel for them, so Diminishing Returns looks terrible on paper and plays terrific in practice.


    Diminishing Returns is the only card that can win the game, or get you back in the game, all by itself. It single handedly takes you out of top deck mode, which is where Storm combo decks lose games against control.
    Except that it also takes your opponent out of topdeck mode too. If you're going to play something for this reason, play a Cruel Bargain or a Meditate.


    It's a good card, and it's the kind of card you only miss when you need. I never understood Fetchland Tendrils aversion to it in the first place, having a full set of Tendrils and the lands needed to hard cast the card is great.
    The aversion is that it doesn't actually offer a solution to ANY of the problems you describe.

    About your scenario:

    How is Diminishing Returns better than Wipe Away here? I already play Wipe Away, Wipe Away will not magically fill my opponents hand with countermagic, Wipe Away will not crypt me anyway (even a marginal player will just activate crypt in response to Returns and now you are short cards in your deck and still have no threshold), and Wipe Away has infinitely less chance of causing me to automatically to lose to RFGing all my win conditions. Wipe Away is the card I find in this scenario.

    Against Counterbalance:

    Wipe Away is still infinitely better here. For Diminishing Returns to be good a couple things need to happen. The first is that you need to be able to play out spells in your hand to increase the storm count while still paying for Diminshing Returns. It's unlikely that a living opponent lets you resolve acceleration. The next is that you actually have to resolve Diminishing Returns through your opponent's countermagic that is, with counterbalance on the table, only useful in countering bounce if possible and countering things like Ill-Gotten Gains and Diminishing Returns. Now, even if you mana to cast and resolve Diminishing Returns, in the event that you manage to have mana left over to cast things after the Returns, you still have to resolve more cards with an opponent having a full grip and still an active counterbalance. What's worse, there's at least a 50% that if they play 4 Stifle, they now have one. So, if you do manage to get lethal storm, and have the mana to play a Tendrils you have a 1 in 2 shot of it being worthless anyway. GG.

    Now, you might have noticed that I highlighted Wipe Away everytime I wrote it. If you haven't received the message yet, this card is the answer to all of your problems. It cooks, it cleans, it even pays your mortgage. Just play it and stop playing jank like Diminishing Returns.


    Edit: Cutting Volcanic Island is bad, ETW is one of the deck's outs against a Chalice of the Void, and you have no way to produce red mana when it's set at zero.
    As an addem here, if you are going to cut one of the two red duals, cut the badlands. The reasoning here is threefold that a good percentage of the time you won't be able to actually cast Dark Ritual and Empty the Warrens since badlands will be both your red and black source. Many times you will want to mystical tutor up either Dark Ritual or Empty the Warrens, and you'll need to do this off a fetchland. Volcanic allows you to do both. The last is that Volcanic Island is fetchable by all of the fetchlands in the deck, not just half of them.

    Uhm, sure if I can I take time before I start the combo, so I can build an optimal hand against opponent's counters, but there is a small critter called tarmogoyf that can do a small pressure and put an high clock... So often I can't wait all this time.
    Tarmogoyf is, at best, a 3 turn clock. This will give you until turn 6-7 to optimize. If you need more you really need to be playing a different deck. You use your cantrips and tutors to setup until the last possible moment and then you can go off. It's honestly not that hard. It's very similar to the concept used when playing Solidarity. That is, while you can combo out early, there is no incentive to pressure yourself, your opponent is going to do enough of that for the both of you.

    I don't know about the rest of you but I board in cheaper bounce, Empty the Warrens, Chants, and Abeyances against Ichorid. The idea here is to put Goblins on the table and chant/abeyance them in response to narcomoeba triggers so you can have time to attack ftw (they can't sac narcomobea and thus will generate 0 tokens). If you have the opportunity to go for Tendrils do it, but the Goblins/Time Walk plan works extremely well, especiall when you have Echoing Truth to bounce zombies.

    Edit: My current list switched bobs to the board for 1 Ponder, 1 Orim's Chant, 2 Grim Tutor. This is entirely due to the insane amount of counterbalance threshold being played and the fact that the extra Ponder and 2 Grim Tutors give me a better chance to find Wipe Away.
    Last edited by emidln; 12-13-2007 at 02:32 PM.
    BZK! - Storm Boards

    Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
    Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.

  17. #17

    Re: Fetchland Tendrils

    Don't cut your one maindeck answer for Diminishing Returns, if anything you cut the 2nd Ill-Gotten Gains. If playing TES has thought me anything its that the 2nd IGG is worthless and Diminishing Returns needed in a combo deck.

  18. #18

    Re: Fetchland Tendrils

    Quote Originally Posted by wastedlife View Post
    Don't cut your one maindeck answer for Diminishing Returns, if anything you cut the 2nd Ill-Gotten Gains. If playing TES has thought me anything its that the 2nd IGG is worthless and Diminishing Returns needed in a combo deck.
    The 2nd IGG is only worthless if you have Burning Wish in your deck. The 2nd IGG is hugely important when you need it to get to the lethal storm from a topdecked Infernal Tutor. Unless you play in a metagame with exactly 0 discard spells, cutting the 2nd IGG is not an option, no matter how much I personally loathe the card.

    I do this way too much.

    Storm Count) Action

    1) Play Infernal Tutor, in response, break two LED, finding IGG
    2) Play IGG floating BB returning IT, LED, LED
    3) Play LED
    4) play LED
    5) Play IT, in response, break two LED, finding IGG
    etc etc

    This just happens a lot.
    BZK! - Storm Boards

    Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
    Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.

  19. #19

    Re: Fetchland Tendrils

    You can't compare Returns to IGG and ETW, IGG and ETW require other cards to be effective, Returns is effective in and of itself. The disadvantages of Returns are clear, but the disadvantages are irrelevant when the deck is going to lose in top deck mode against Threshold regardless. A Draw4 doesn't get the job done here either, the life loss will end the game before the 4 cards will become relevant.

    The second Ill Gotten Gains is superfluous, a lot of the time the deck can just Infernal Tutor -> Ill Gotten Gains -> Empty the Warrens and either win or hold off the opponent or Infernal Tutor -> Ill Gotten Gains -> Diminishing Returns for the win. Diminishing Returns serves the same function as the second Ill Gotten Gains in most instances, and it gives the deck another out in scenarios I'm not certain how to explain to some one who doesn't have experience with the card. There are times when the deck has to push the opponent before Counterbalance hits the board, and you can't always sit around building a double Tendrils hand or waiting for Orim's Chant when Force of Will is in the graveyard.

    Wipe Away is not a replacement for Diminishing Returns, you wouldn't cut Empty the Warrens because Wipe Away answers Meddling Mage on Tendrils of Agony, and it's the same reasoning for why you wouldn't cut Diminishing Returns because Wipe Away answers Tormod's Crypt. Mystical Tutor for Wipe Away costs you a card and a turn, and you can't ignore that. Your argument seems to be that Tendrils should be the control deck, but that's not realistic against the threat of Counterbalance or even Leyline of the Void followed by Goblin Lackey and Wasteland/Rishadan Port.

    Storm combo has an extremely complex and intuitive tempo game to play against Threshold based on the presence of Counterbalance, Stifle, Wasteland, Engineered Explosives and Tormod's Crypt, and there are times where you just look at your opponent, pick up a tell and know that you need to force the situation or times where the permanent based hate is denser than the instant based hate and the math favors taking a chance now as opposed to letting your opponent drop Counterbalance, Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg, Trinket Mage + Chalice of the Void, Null Rod or Chalice of the Void etc.

    You can't judge the card on paper, it's an intuitive card that's irreplaceable in certain situations, and it's just as functional as the second Ill Gotten Gains, especially against discard. A lot of the time, Storm combo is about weighing the advantages and disadvantages of choosing between double Tendrils of Agony, Empty the Warrens, Diminishing Returns or Orim's Chant either right now or in a turn.
    Quote Originally Posted by wastedlife View Post
    Breathweapon, I regret saying this but ... I've been liking you more and more every day.

  20. #20

    Re: Fetchland Tendrils

    The problem of Diminishing Returns in this deck is quite clear... you don't play the same ratio's of cardtypes as TES does.

    TES plays atleast 24 additional mana sources, 8 direct tutors and 2 winconditions( put the cards in your hand, rather than on top of you graveyard) the rest is quite dead after an Diminishing Returns, especially lands, but luckely this deck plays only 10 lands. But this is already the half of you deck. changes are quite good you draw in a Tutor or win condition and produce enough mana to finish the job.

    Now if you look at this deck you play only 16 mana sources, 4 direct tutors and 3 win conditions. After a Diminishing Returns the change is far bigger that you won't draw enough manasources to continue comboing.

    I'm sure someone like someone like Iranon could calculate how many manasources, tutors and crap you will draw. The problem is that this deck plays Mystical Tutor, Brainstorm, Ponder and 13/14 lands. Those spells are excellent for setting up a win, but quite dead when you are in your winning turn.

    The same is true for Draw Fours, there good for setting up, but quite weak when comboing( except in SI, but then again that deck plays a higher number of manasources.)

    The second IGGy is needed in my meta( alot discard) but if you only face counter decks, I can understand that you trim it down to one. But I wouldn't replace it with Diminishing Returns, a Draw Four is a much better choice( or Grim Tutor if you can afford it.) It is a must counter for them and if you get one through, you have a large cardadvantage over them to win the counterwar.

    So in short I wouldn't play Returns, because the change is much higher for you to fizzle and having to passed the turn, in this situation, if your opponent played some creature is a huge swing in there favor.

    BB

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)