[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

[leegoo]

Definitely test it out and report back, I'm willing to have my mind changed.

I expect you'll end up seeing a lot of games against tempo where you end up getting 3 for 1'd, which isn't a good time, but like I said, I'm happy to have it proved that I've been looking over one of my favorite cards for the last 15 years.

Again, nothing you've said would make me want to keep hands with LotD in them. (And I'm not saying RoF is an all star or anything, it's just a *fine 5th dark ritual if you are in the market for that.)

[Lemnear]

The problem with Lake is that every land you fetch has to be a swamp type which exposes you to Wastelands

[QQQ]

The problem with Lake is that every land you fetch has to be a swamp type which exposes you to Wastelands

That is true if you want to use it on turn three. But I recall someone insisting that this is not a T3 deck. Playing Island, then Swamp, then Fetchland, then fetch Sea into Lake on T4 is very reasonable. Doesnt expose you to Waste, allows the deck to function completely, and still gives access to UU, as well as a ton of B when going off turn four.

[emidln]

You know it; I know it; everyone who actually played a few games with Doomsday knows, that Doomsday is neither consistent nor a turn 3 deck, but more a turn 4 one given you find the Doomsday, the fitting mana to cast it, a way to draw into the pile and potentially required protection all in the meantime, which DTT does with a higher consistency and less color requirement than Wish/SDT to REALLY combo turn 3-4 thanks to the actual cardadvantage and improved cardselection especially against resistance.

I've found Doomsday to be a turn 3 deck. When watching others, I find that their fundamental turn varies greatly. For the better pilots, it's 3. For the players without enough experience to see alternate lines, it tends to be 4 or 5. A lot of this comes down to how you sequence cantrips and what needs to be valued for each hand.

Cutting Burning Wish is close to impossible to do. Any time you cut Burning Wish, you have to realize that you don't free up 3-4 slots, you free up 1-2. That's because once you go from 3 Doomsday, 3-4 Burning Wish to 0 Burning Wish, you are now obligated to play an additional Doomsday and Tendrils of Agony. You play Burning Wish because drawing Tendrils of Agony is almost never what you want. Wish has some value in that it can be a worse (corner cases better) Doomsday, and also deal with unfortunate situations like killing a dude, grabbing some tokens, etc. It's also rarely stone cold dead. It slows you down in the cases when it's not Doomsday, but speeds you up in situations where it's not Dark Petition, Tendrils of Agony, or random other awful things.

Now, if you do want to play Dig Through Time, I won't fault you. That card is busted. To play Dig through Time instead of Burning Wish, you're going to assert one of two things: UU to maybe find Doomsday + card is better than always finding Doomsday at 1R and the opportunity cost of drawing Tendrils of Agony is made up for by the raw power of DTT. I'd be willing to hear an argument about how the general power level of DTT with the 4th Doomsday is high enough to outweight Burning Wish's ability to let you ignore REB/Pyroblast, not ever draw Tendrils, never miss on Doomsday, add additional storm, and deal with game one threats like Thalia.

Cutting SDT doesn't add velocity to the deck. SDT is at least a mana stored ahead of time, often more due to LED. The only things cutting SDT does are opening you up to discard, requiring more cards in hand, and requiring more mana on the combo turn.

[Kanti]

To DDFT pilots; if you had to jam a DTT or two into a Burning Wish build for value (assuming it would create value) what would you cut? For instance, I had read Namida saying he hadn't used Chromatic Sphere for months, although admitting in the same vein he probably should find himself to have 4 mana open more to do so.

Nevermind, found my answer in post #2227. Just replace Cruise with DTT.

[emidln]

So, I have been jamming DTT in a Wish list. It looks like this right now:

3 Doomsday
3 Burning Wish
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Chromatic Sphere
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal

4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Cruel Bargain
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Vapor Snare
SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 4 Force of Will

This has been running very smoothly on mtgo. The next thing for me to test is if I can get away with cutting Burning Wish (for the reasons I mentioned above). It would smooth out the mana and give me the 4th copy of Doomsday and Dig through Time in my deck. The complete cut would be something along the lines of:

-3 Burning Wish, +1 Tendrils, +1 Doomsday, +1 Dig Through Time
-2 Volcanic Island, -1 underground sea +1 Island, +1 Swamp, +10th fetch, playing 4 misty rainforests over strands/tarns

The sideboard would change the most, and likely look like this:

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Tropical Island
4 Force of Will
2 bounce spells
1 haymaker (possibly JTMS)

The things that I'll keep a watch out for is the need to play THROUGH reb/pyroblast, situations where drawing tendrils or having it in my main loses me games against the meta, and lack of wish into bounce/discard. This must be balanced against the raw power of drawing the last Doomsday and the 4th Dig through Time and better mana stability.

As an aside, because I often bring in Force of Will, I have less hand information post-board for Cabal Therapy. This has led me to prefer Thoughtseize/Duress over Therapy when playing with Forces or other countermagic in my 75.

[Ancestral]

So, I have been jamming DTT in a Wish list. It looks like this right now:

3 Doomsday
3 Burning Wish
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Chromatic Sphere
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal

4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Cruel Bargain
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Vapor Snare
SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 4 Force of Will

This has been running very smoothly on mtgo. The next thing for me to test is if I can get away with cutting Burning Wish (for the reasons I mentioned above). It would smooth out the mana and give me the 4th copy of Doomsday and Dig through Time in my deck. The complete cut would be something along the lines of:

-3 Burning Wish, +1 Tendrils, +1 Doomsday, +1 Dig Through Time
-2 Volcanic Island, -1 underground sea +1 Island, +1 Swamp, +10th fetch, playing 4 misty rainforests over strands/tarns

The sideboard would change the most, and likely look like this:

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Tropical Island
4 Force of Will
2 bounce spells
1 haymaker (possibly JTMS)

The things that I'll keep a watch out for is the need to play THROUGH reb/pyroblast, situations where drawing tendrils or having it in my main loses me games against the meta, and lack of wish into bounce/discard. This must be balanced against the raw power of drawing the last Doomsday and the 4th Dig through Time and better mana stability.

As an aside, because I often bring in Force of Will, I have less hand information post-board for Cabal Therapy. This has led me to prefer Thoughtseize/Duress over Therapy when playing with Forces or other countermagic in my 75.

seems very interesting! usually you bring in forces in wich matchups and what cards side out for it?

[the driver]

So, I have been jamming DTT in a Wish list. It looks like this right now:

This has been running very smoothly on mtgo. The next thing for me to test is if I can get away with cutting Burning Wish (for the reasons I mentioned above). It would smooth out the mana and give me the 4th copy of Doomsday and Dig through Time in my deck. The complete cut would be something along the lines of:

-3 Burning Wish, +1 Tendrils, +1 Doomsday, +1 Dig Through Time
-2 Volcanic Island, -1 underground sea +1 Island, +1 Swamp, +10th fetch, playing 4 misty rainforests over strands/tarns

The sideboard would change the most, and likely look like this:

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Tropical Island
4 Force of Will
2 bounce spells
1 haymaker (possibly JTMS)

The things that I'll keep a watch out for is the need to play THROUGH reb/pyroblast, situations where drawing tendrils or having it in my main loses me games against the meta, and lack of wish into bounce/discard. This must be balanced against the raw power of drawing the last Doomsday and the 4th Dig through Time and better mana stability.
.

What do you think about running a single Burning Wish in place of Tendrils. The 10th Fetch or 3rd Island could be a Volcanic. The sideboard for it could be limited to Tendrils, Contract, Discard, and Massacre (or similar choices). The last three could be sideboard candidates regardless of the Wish so it feels like a minimal investment.

A single wish would,
- keep DD pile storm counts on par
- Allow you play around REB
- Have utility in places where Tendrils would be dead for discard / massacre (narrow I know)

The downside I see is there are less instances where you could cast spells and DTT into natural Tendrils because I assume the extra 1R would make Wish less desirable in this function, especially with less LEDs. I also am not sure if I'm underestimating the ability to mini Tendrils, get a life buffer, cast DTT with expended cards to find DD and re-stack the Tendrils in the pile.

[Kathal]

Big Problem with this idea is (so running one BW in the main) that you can't tutor for both Contract and Tendrils with only 1 BW. You need at least 2 in the main deck to open such lines. And if you want to run the full playset of Dig/DDFT main, you don't want to run BW.

Otherwise, the list looks pretty interesting, I would run Flusterstorm over FoW, but with the playset Dig FoW might be better.

Greetings,
Kathal

[the driver]

Big Problem with this idea is (so running one BW in the main) that you can't tutor for both Contract and Tendrils with only 1 BW. You need at least 2 in the main deck to open such lines. And if you want to run the full playset of Dig/DDFT main, you don't want to run BW.

Otherwise, the list looks pretty interesting, I would run Flusterstorm over FoW, but with the playset Dig FoW might be better.

Greetings,
Kathal

That is a fair comment. I guess the answer would be you could still try and win with Lab Maniac and use the Wish --> Contract to get the extra discard in your pile. There's no doubt the utility of Wish is diminished (relative to the old configuration) with this idea. I'm just wondering if a singleton Wish can potentially be better than a maindeck Tendrils. There are some cheap piles and nice double cantrip piles with a maindeck Tendrils.

Just a thought...although I may be talking (thinking) myself out of it.

[Doishy]

For a long while I have been running some combo of 2/3 DTT and a singleton wish. I do advise pumping it up to two as I am now testing. Two allows for, as stated, you being able to fetch utility from your sideboard alongside the tendrils and additionally when you have a lot of surgicals in peoples' sideboards as I do in my meta, allows you to side out one DDay postboard and still have access to the full DTT/BW for DDay package.

Has anyone had any viable success using dark petition or is it just a passing fancy?

[cdnza]

Has anyone had any viable success using dark petition or is it just a passing fancy?

There was recently a wishless build with Dark Petition and Past in Flames posted on Kai's ANT Facebook group. I'm not sure if I can repost it here but that's where you can find it.

[Togores]

It was like an evolution of the first draft list I posted:
4 dark petition
4 doomsday
4 gp
4 bs
4 led (-1)
20
4 dr
4 cabal ritual
4 sensei
1 pif
7 discard
20
1 rain
1 toa
1 ideas
2 lp
1 chain


1 island
1 swamp
2 usea
1 bayou
1 tropical
1 volcanic
1 badland (other basic island)
8 fetch
16


Fluster?
Reb?
Fow?
Etw?


Maniac
Decay
Xs
Pyro
Fluster
Emrakul
Sheldock
Grapeshot
Helm
Notion

Toa
Ponder
Version
Silence
Fluster
Daze
Mentor

[the driver]

That list looks a lot like the older German lists that ran Infernal Tutor and Ill Gotten Gains except with Dark Petition and PiF. I'm curious how much getting the mana to cast Dark Petition is? This list plays a lot more rituals than traditional lists so maybe it is not that bad.

[Togores]

At the end you have to play 4 cabal ritual as most important card. Then problem is cabal works not well with top and works good with preordain and casting probes pre combo wich all is what dday dont want to do. Thats my main issues with the deck now.

[Amunshax]

Was just discussing with a friend, if 3 fetchies, 3 duress and one infernal Tutor is keepable vs Bug delver on the draw, thoughts?

[snorlaxcom]

Was just discussing with a friend, if 3 fetchies, 3 duress and one infernal Tutor is keepable vs Bug delver on the draw, thoughts?

So you are keeping a hand that loses to a discard spell in the next turns? You have to wait 3 turns to empty your hand for hellbent as is, so that sounds like an auto-mull. Would be funny to duress into hand with clique.

[Amunshax]

Burning wish, sry...

[Kathal]

Burning wish, sry...

Still, the hand loses to a single discard spell (if he has it on Turn 1). You have no cantrip to find any business, so losing the BW would be more than rough. Furthermore, this specific hand will have huge problems against a Turn 1 Delver, since it is to fast (especially if you lose the Tutor).

I would mull this hand without thinking twice.

Greetings,
Kathal

[emidln]

I'm pretty happy with the no-Wish maindeck. 4 DD, 4 Dig is really really good. Dig seems to address the consistency issues the deck has when it has to aggressively cantrip to find Doomsday while providing a means towards either Doomsday or recovering from attrition.

I've tried a number of sideboard plans. I can't say that any of them are particularly impressive. The most interesting are Abrupt Decay + Force of Will, but the Miracle plan (4 FoW, 4 CB, 4 Mentor, 3 Terminus) is also good by virtue of being difficult to attack from decks that can deal with Storm well. Mentor in general is a very good threat, and whether we end up dropping FoW or not, a combination of Mentors and Abrupt Decays is going to lean us to a white or green splash in almost every case. It's kinda neat that 2-3 Doomsday can be kept in every a full transformation allowing for Doomsday into IU/Chromatic Sphere/LED/Lab Man kills. It's possible that Mentor/Therapy is so strong that just Mentor plus situational cards for various matchups is correct.

Anyway, if you are playing Doomsday, you should really give this maindeck a shot, it's absurd:

4 Doomsday
4 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Chromatic Sphere
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp

Open questions:

- What can be cut for the 7th discard spell? (Current best targets: 17th land or 4th Dig Through Time)
- What is the best way of ensuring to beat Miracles?
- Abrupt Decay, Mentor, both? (You probably cut the 10th fetch to maindeck a splash dual if you play either)
- Do we want a black draw4 to side in when we have Dig Through Time?
- How much additional disruption is necessary against combo?

As always, I do not recommend playing this deck to anyone unless you enjoy Doomsday and are experienced with legacy storm decision trees. If you do enjoy Doomsday, this has been a good way to win matches for me. YMMV.