[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

[MTG Junkie]

First thoughts when I saw this list on Star City where looks weird,kinda reminds me of ANT,doesn't seem like a typical Doomsday list,why not just play ANT and god I wish I could get in this person's head.

It's fucking awesome to find out that the list is yours!
With that said, It would be great if you could answer my questions.

[emidln]

ANT wins in three ways, two of which are unreliable (ignoring ETW, since both DDFT and ANT can play it if they want to). By unreliable, I mean that just resolving them doesn't guarantee a win undisrupted.

- Ad Nauseam can fizzle. It requires a lot of ritual effects, and the lack of initial mana sources has been noted as a reliability issue with recent builds. Ad Nauseam is still a powerful card that wins most of the time you cast it.

- Past in Flames can fizzle. If you don't have a tutor/tendrils in the graveyard, you get to cast cantrips looking for a tutor or a Tendrils. This might have a high degree of success (I've personally experienced around 80% wins from this), but I'm not okay with possibly losing when I'm casting my bomb.

- (The third way is chaining spells without a storm engine, typically using Therapy/Snapcaster Mage, enemy spells, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish and/or cantrips.)

DDFT casts Doomsday, puts 5 cards that win the game in the pile, and then wins.

ANT has to play a lot of ritual effects. This makes the deck less consistent over time than a deck that has more cantrips to select its draws. The consistency leads to fewer mulligans and better ability to handle hand disruption. Further, some acceleration spells are better suited to each storm engine that ANT plays. This is further inconsistency which simply doesn't exist when you only ever win when casting Doomsday.

ANT isn't signficantly faster in a goldfish than DDFT, at least the lists that see play right now are not.

ANT actually has a pretty significant issue facing it with its use of Cabal Ritual / Past in Flames and Death Rite Shaman's increased popularity. If your primary method of winning the game vs disruption is Past in Flames, Death Rite Shaman is bad news for you. I narrowly escaped a BUG Delver deck riding a Death Rite Shaman as I was situationally hosed with my 1-of Snapcaster Mage (in retrospect, I should not be playing a Snapcaster Mage in the current metagame). I can't imagine how difficult it would be to need to win early through discard + counters so you don't autolose to a shaman controlling PiF/CRit should you lose some life to make AdN unviable.

I don't know why this wouldn't be a "typical" Doomsday list. It's basically the list that's been seeing play in Europe (courtesy of Lejay and pokpok) -chants, +discard. If you mean that it's missing Infernal Tutor, then I'd posit you haven't seen a Doomsday list in a long time.

[Tammit67]

My main problem when learning a new archetype is the SB plan. Would you mine walking me through your thoughts on the list you posted?

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Yes. IC + Tendrils come in for any matchup where I expect Surgical/Extirpate/Spell Snare/REB.

Yeah, I played against Dave Price. I believe I had a kill with this game state with 3 life:

In play: Island, Volcanic Island, Swamp, Sensei's Divining Top
In hand: Dark Ritual, Doomsday, Chain of Vapor

Gratz on getting a solid performance in with DDay. The list looks sweet.

As for the scenario, isn't that rather straight forward?


SPOILER



Ritual, DDay to build:

LED
IU
LED
LED
BWish

Tap Top, Chain it (Storm 3). Draw LED. Play LED + Top (5). Sac LED for UUU, Top into IU, cast it (6). Draw Top, LED, LED. Play them (9), sac for BBBRRR, Top into Wish into Tendrils for 22.

Literally seemed like an obvious line of play when reading the board state. Am I missing something or am I better with DDay than I thought?

[emidln]

Gratz on getting a solid performance in with DDay. The list looks sweet.

As for the scenario, isn't that rather straight forward?


SPOILER



Ritual, DDay to build:

LED
IU
LED
LED
BWish

Tap Top, Chain it (Storm 3). Draw LED. Play LED + Top (5). Sac LED for UUU, Top into IU, cast it (6). Draw Top, LED, LED. Play them (9), sac for BBBRRR, Top into Wish into Tendrils for 22.

Literally seemed like an obvious line of play when reading the board state. Am I missing something or am I better with DDay than I thought?

That's it. You're probably better than you imagine. A lot of people have never seen the chain on sdt line if play.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

That's it. You're probably better than you imagine. A lot of people have never seen the chain on sdt line if play.

Maybe that's Vintage Gifts shining through. So many shenanigans with CoV to reach lethal Tendrils involved...
I really have to start fully learning DDay someday soon (well, as soon as I manage to acquire another two Karakas - they've become hellishly expensive), given that what you state above about its advantages over ANT makes sense and the deck now has a manabase I can deal with (aka not 4c MD).
Given such plans, I'd second Matt's call for SB-plans.

Two questions regarding the list:
- no Wishable sweeper in the board? Wouldn't a single Virtue's Ruin or something help a lot against hatebear-cluttered boards?

- how was the Snapcaster? Playing them in ANT I found them incredibly clunky. What should I replace Tiago with if I decide I don't like him here either?

[Chikenbok]

@em - 4 copies of wish. Ever feel like you had too many? I'm still on the 'og euro' plan with 3 wish 3 DD main. Also, how was the discard? I've been sitting on 1 Duress, 1 Cabal Therapy, 4 Silence, 1 Chant for a while now and been loving it.

Also, surprised there's no massacre in the board, card has been a house every time I've cast it.

[emidln]

A lot of this is probably rambling, but I'm not in the mood to weave and edit an article.

In the DDFT thread on storm boards, we're currently discussing the merits of the infinite Karakas plan. I'm still in favor as I saw a ton of Thalias, both in Maverick and elsewhere (Death and Taxes, Zoo, B/W, misc B/G/W decks) at the top tables. Lejay is making a rather compelling case for at least -1 Karakas, +1 Massacre in the SB, and arguing for Slaughter Pact as well. I'd suggest reading the last few posts on storm boards.

Anyway, there is no wishable answer since none is necessary. You have two ways to remove Thalia in g1, and that's the only hatebear that actually stops you from comboing. Teeg just gets bounced right before you Tendrils via CoV or Karakas. It's surprisingly hard to lose to random things that ANT or TES would have to Wish against when you just stack Chain/Karakas while killing them. You don't really have hatebear-cluttered boards too often (mostly postboard, but then you have more Karakas (or Slaughter Pact/Massacre) and Decays.

The Snapcaster Mage was probably wrong. I love it, as it provides a lot of value with LED and Cabal Therapy, but I haven't been paying attention to recent results and didn't realize that Deathrite Shaman was a card. Snapcaster Mage probably becomes another basic, Lotus Petal, Cabal Ritual, or a Preordain for me. Cabal Rit is closest in function vs an aggro deck, Preordain probably closest vs other stuff. Extra lands/Petals are just nice to have. Preordain is where I'd likely start, since the only games I lost were where I bricked on seeing more than 2 of my 18-22 possible draw spells or grossly misboarded (e.g. vs BUG in g2).

The 9th fetch may want to become a Swamp. Swamp isn't particularly good, except when you need to cast Abrupt Decay or Doomsday multiple times. The deck simply wants 4 lands to operate on in a lot of matches vs Wasteland, and can typically burn spare black or colorless.

My sideboarding was pretty fluid. I brought in Tendrils + IC a lot since I played vs a lot of people splashing red (UW Miracles splashed red, RUG, Goblins, Belcher). I'd bring in Tendrils vs anything that is likely packing Surgical/Extirpate as well, since it's pretty loose to lose to discard spell + surgical. Often I took out a Burning Wish and a Gitaxian Probe. I'd side out Karakas when it didn't seem particularly relevant. I cut Burning Wishes and Volcs entirely vs UW and RUG when I saw Spell Snare. I wrongly boarded in Decays vs BUG expecting Counterbalance (he had SDT) and lost a game 2 that wasn't even close because I drew them while he Hymned them away followed by beaters.

1 Gitaxian Probe (typically when Infernal Contract comes in to keep Wish alive as a draw spell).
4 Duress
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Burning Wish
1 Karakas

These were sided out pretty frequently over the course of the day. Snapcaster was fine against RUG w/o Snare and UW, but suspect vs BUG due to DRS. It stays in vs aggro as a 6th way of enabling quick Doomsdays. Duress was sided out vs aggro. Sometimes Therapy came out too. When I took out Burning Wish, I brought in Doomsday, Tendrils, and sometimes IC. I typically also sided in Tropical Islands vs LD (typically for Karakas + something). They always came in when volcs come out. I never actually boarded in ETW, but it could possibly be correct if my opp doesn't see it (or red) in previous games, particularly vs Spell Snare. ETW stole a few games via Brainstorm/Probe/LED into Wish. I never sided in Time Spiral, but I wished for it a couple times, inside and outside of piles (even under extreme duress vs BUG and it won the game; pretty insane to draw 7 cards and untap 6 lands... with a storm deck).

I don't have static sideboard plans though. Sideboarding can change pretty dramatically from one RUG list to the next depending on what you see from them, and what you show them in previous games.

About the disruption suite:

I'm not convinced that discard is always going to be correct. Duress vs Snapcaster is just today's iteration of The Mana Drain Problem from yesteryear's Vintage or old 1.5. Silence solves this without the awkward vulnerability to Misd/Divert (which is criminally underplayed right now by blue decks). I was lucky enough to avoid it, but it will occur. Doomsday can work around it better than most, but you might drop some games to it. That said, the complete information given by Probe/Duress/Therapy probably wins more than it loses to Snapcaster Mage or double mana-based counter. The manabase is not an issue, even with 4c main. You end up playing an extra land or two in the main and maybe more petals (2-3 likely), but you still have 8-9 fetches and can get 3-4 basics (1-2 island, 1 swamp, 1 plains) plus your (limited) duals (most lists ran 1-2 Sea, 2 volc, 1 scrub, 1 tundra), choosing to go with basics + petals.

About my comments on ANT:

ANT is a fine deck, but it's not as tight as I'd like. I believe that it's one of the most powerful decks in the format. That said, if you can actually play Doomsday, I believe that your plateau is much higher than with ANT (less variance due to more cantrips allows more opportunity to win and lose on skill). Doomsday, properly piloted, can be both a speed monster and a grindy, attrition war-winning machine depending on what the situation calls for. Your destiny is largely in your own hands with the deck. It's very similar to Spiral Tide in that regard, but with the ability to do really busted stuff on turns 1 and 2.

4th Burning Wish is about drawing a 2nd. You can use it as a draw spell, or, more likely, to just cast when the first one gets countered/discarded. There is a rise in discard strategies, so you really need to make sure that you can find a business spell to win in time.

[MTG Junkie]

The last Doomsday lists Iv seen had Chants,IT and Laboratory Maniac. Lol so your right its been a while.
I'm not ready to put down ANT just yet. However you have made me interested in looking more into Doomsday.

Thanks for the reply/input,I appreciate it.

[Tammit67]

Thanks for the reply/input,I appreciate it.

Ditto. If I can coerce a friend to help me test, I'm sure to understand better your reasonings.

[Tammit67]

I'm having some difficulty beating Esperblade postboard. They have a lot of cards I'd like to force them to discard, and I have little experience building piles that beat extraction. Mostly I have to hope I draw X before my BW. Obviously top in play would help. Any other advice?

[Lejay]

The more mana you have the better. The more addional draw spells you have the better.
The puzzle section on storm boards has some examples of how to optimize piles against surgical.

If it's a recurring issue in your metagame switch to chant effects.

[MTG Junkie]

So I registered for Storm Boards in hopes of finding out more about the current way play DD
I got know where. The website seems hard to navigate through,any suggestions? Id love to read what ever you guys ate reading about Doomsday.

[Chikenbok]

So I registered for Storm Boards in hopes of finding out more about the current way play DD
I got know where. The website seems hard to navigate through,any suggestions? Id love to read what ever you guys ate reading about Doomsday.

Start with the Puzzles/Scenario's section on the bottom of the front page to get some useful piles memorized. Most of the talk about the deck itself/testing and various alternatives is in the 'Storm Combo' section of the front page under UBx Doomsday.

[Tammit67]

The more mana you have the better. The more addional draw spells you have the better.
The puzzle section on storm boards has some examples of how to optimize piles against surgical.

If it's a recurring issue in your metagame switch to chant effects.

I might have to. The local group of ringers have 3-4 people on Stoneblade every tournament. The discard+counters+surgical makes it grinder than I want, don't have enough cantrips to do what I want.

I'll have to find those puzzles, i love puzzles

[Tammit67]

Switched over to the chants list Lejay has been running and I'm impressed how well the mana still works out with another color added. More people need to learn how to combo with this engine

[xfxf]

Care to share the list?

Whichever Magic Online stream I watch Lejay shows up with Doomsday and 2-0 s one of the rounds. Peaked my interest in the deck to be honest. I'm curious though how does this deck fare against random aggro decks where they can race you, or against things like Elves? Doomsday doesn't look like the fastest combo deck.

[Lejay]

Our sect meets regularly on storm boards. But remember first and second rule of fight club. :{

The deck just doesn't lose against aggro and elves is one of the easiest possible match-ups. You lose to burn if they have storm hate though, which is a bit strange since storm hate is not very effective against ANT and TES. People playing burn with storm hate are generally not in the top tables though.
Your greatest enemy with this deck is yourself (and huge storm haters, that one too).

EDIT : You can lose against infect, stompy... this kind of decks. With enough disrupt they are even bad match-ups.

[Koby]

*shakes an angry elf fist at Lejay*

Ya, no interaction with Combo Elves. GG.

[Doomsday]

Does stormboards even work anymore? When I click the "forgot my password" link, the captcha is broken so I never get a pw reset.

On topic: for the 4c lists do you guys like a badlands or a scrubland? If scrubland, are you playing 2 volcanic then?