Originally Posted by emidln
I really like this list I'm just getting into legacy. I don't own any Karakas would you put a fetchland in its slot? Also opening up two sideboard slots do you like Ill-Gotten gains or a second IU on the SB? Goldfishing I found the extra burning wish when I draw into DD needed a decent target for if I want hard cast DD on 3 and want to play the wish T2. Also looking at the google docs SS on the other page there are alot of good piles with IGGY and TOA Maindeck that have cheaper mana requirements. Snapcaster Would not be very good for me alot if DRS. Could I play a Maindeck IGGY? It seems pretty crap to draw into but it makes the t1 dark rit doomsday pass piles possible. I could also just MD one of the tendrils and SB the IGGY for BW piles. If you don't think they are worth a slot MD what would you put in snapcasters slot petal number 2? Another land or preordain?
Tendrils and IGG are just miserable, straight up mulligans any time you draw them.
In straight UBr Doomsday you might try a badlands in spot of karakas, it's not all that great, but while learning the deck it can make things easier and every now and then it's nice to have. Otherwise, probably another basic/sea.
There are plenty of Pass the Turn piles that don't require IGG, just making it more useless.
If you don't play the snapcaster then I'd go for the 2nd petal or another protection spell.
But for the most part, doomsday discussion takes place on Stormboards, not here. Good luck with the deck!
Swim, Bike, Run, MTG
Thanks I just today put in an app waiting for a mod to unlock me so I can read up. Why is badlands or basic / sea better than another fetch are the exact number of real lands very important? Seems like a fetch would ve better without shuffle. Also of If I decide to play lotus pedal over the snap would IGGY /IU number 2 be worth it in SB? When goldfishing IGGY in SB seemed pretty useless but IU seemed awesome but I was fishing and the extra wishes I got might just end up getting me DD if I get one stripped. What do you think my SB slots should be for the Karakas I see massacre discussed a few pages back. Based on what I've seen and what you said I think I can do - Karakas -snap + petal + sea abd in SB -2 Karakas + 1IU + 1massacre How does that look?
I mean, I think Infernal Contract fairly well solidifies your "card draw" spell in the board, making a second IU pretty unnecessary.
You can run another fetch if you wanted... a lot of newer players to doomsday have a hard time coming up with the right amount of mana (that is R + BBB) without running a badlands. It's something you learn, but it's a nice crutch if you can afford it, and just nice in general at times.
Swim, Bike, Run, MTG
I think I will just have to goldfish alot. I liked idea of IGGY since that google doc made this deck incredibly easy to understand and all it's pass piles are IGGY is love if you or the decks creator could show me some possible pass piles without a main deck ToA or IGGY becuase I'm not seeing alot of easy ones. Considering you want to pass pile on really fast T1 -T2 DD plays to make it faster than just waiting I don't see many. This may be outweighed by how horrible of a draw it is but it allows for some decent pass piles if in hand but aside from that it's a mull 6 like you said. I think it's time to go fishing until I get access to storm boards.
Edit: would 1 rite of flame sideboard be bad for an extra wish target for the double wish hands for 1 extra storm and mana or is IC going to net me the same advantage with or with SDT on board ?
Last edited by Moxnix; 04-12-2013 at 07:04 PM.
You are going to have to goldfish a lot. Iggy has fallen out of favor of late, most people have or are cutting that card from the sideboard. If you are trying to set up pass the turn piles on turn one or two and not going for the shelldock emrukul plan, your going to really struggle as you probably don't have enough resources to go off properly.
Rite is not good in the sideboard.
Ill-Gotten Gains is bad because it's a horrible draw, and the benefits of having it in your deck do not outweigh that. The main reasons you would want it in your deck are to enable Ill-Gotten Gains Loops with Infernal Tutor and to enable quick pass-the-turn piles. However, Infernal Tutor also isn't good in this deck because it can't often win the game on its own unless you have a Sensei's Divining Top in play since the deck doesn't max out on fast mana to facilitate Ill-Gotten Gains (2 Lotus Petals max, no Cabal Rituals because they're bad with Ideas Unbound, and Rain of Filth isn't any good at all for loops), and the kind of decks you want to quickly pass the turn on are decks you should beat up on anyway because passing the turn is dangerous enough that it shouldn't be your first choice against anything that could disrupt you after you've committed. And in this vein, playing Ideas Unbound piles with Probe and Burning Wish in your deck makes it much easier to string together a quick win that passing the turn quickly isn't as important.
Basically: Why do you find it integral to this deck's game plan to be able to consistently cast Doomsday on turns 1 and 2?
Also, could you explain more what you'd be trying to do with a Rite of Flame in your board? All I'm seeing is "It doesn't cast Doomsday" and the biggest problem I have with this deck is actually getting the triple black mana to cast my card.
3 x Underground Sea
1 x Badlands
2 x Swamp
Usually does it for me
Oh, I don't mean to say that it's a *real* problem--my point is that I don't think Rite of Flame does anything because only Burning Wish and Sensei's Divining Top can utilize the mana because every other card in the deck strictly needs blue or black mana, with no colorless mana requirements to speak of. I'm not seeing any immediate upside that overshadows the whole "This is only works with two cards in the deck" problem.3 x Underground Sea
1 x Badlands
2 x Swamp
Usually does it for me
Oh man, I didn't even see someone recommending Rite in the SB. Yeah, don't do that. I think I'd probably run bubbling muck before I touched Rite of Flame.
Also dude who likes IGG, if you're into IGG, you can try out the old german lists that ran infernal tutor and burning wish. It was usually an Iggy loop deck that had Doomsday as a 40%/backup plan. It can get you into the mindset of why simply casting Doomsday is better than casting anything else.
Still cant see anything on StormBoards but i have done some testing of my own. Well i actually just gold-fished the deck a ton and yea i don't think i need any of those bad card SB or main after using the deck. It is alot easier than i thought once you see its just crafting a hand that gets their by moving through the pile droping BW last and Trendrils and so far im finding dropping in cabal therapy / duress quite easy as a chug toward t3-4 kills. Now i need some practice with someone Hymning me or dazing me or pulling out flusterstorms or whatever. I really like his core build i just switched Karakas for Sea 3 and Played Petal number 2 over Snap-caster. I Think i might just use the two extra SB slots i have from karkas and play 2 Dark Confidant For if i board them in with the 4th Therapy against decks that grind me down with Hymn etc maybe?
The thing i love about this deck though is opening the silly hands and going yea i can win turn 1 with this :)
Oh yeah, the Snapcaster Mage got dropped quickly because of Deathrite Shaman. If I recall correctly, the list you have is outdated, but you made pretty much the same changes to your maindeck. There's still a Karakas in the board, though, and 2 Tropical Island 4 Abrupt Decay was deemed unnecessary. I've never understood what Dark Confidant is supposed to do in Storm decks, to be honest with you. What sort of Hymn decks are you facing? In any case, I don't think you need much more to combat discard when you're already playing Sensei's Divining Top and a bunch of lands. I'd personally play Emrakul and Shelldock Isle in your last two slots.
Well Congrats to the guy who placed with Doomsday at the SCG. Brain must be like cheese after so many rounds.... :). If anyone is still out there, anyone tried swan song on the board (vs discard/counters/counterbalance)? Im playing UBr DDFT with a light green splash off the board for swarm/decay. (Im testing dropping it for the swan songs). Anyone got any swish ways to play around the random 1 of karakas from esper stoneblade/miracles. Literally every time I go for Emrakul post board they seem to have it sandbagged somewhere.... (not too keen on boarding a pithing needle etc... space is already tight). Would a more traditional 'German' list be better at the moment? it seems a bit more durable, which is good at the mo with all the permanent based disruption running around...
It seems like the deck seems pretty well positioned at the moment, we should drum up a bit more interest :D.
Hope someone out in the interweb-a-net is listening!
The Spanish Tunnel King.
Personally, I've dropped Shelldock/Emrakul from my board due to the weakness you've mentioned, and basically every deck running wasteland. Not worth it anymore. If you're looking for an alternate win-con, try a 1 of Lab Maniac.
I'm running a 5c list, including the green splash. I think that Abrupt Decay and Swarms are a better answer to many problems than Swan Song, myself. Needing to counter something when they play it precludes cantripping to dig for pieces that you need as well. But, YMMV - I'm no DDFT expert or anything...
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
Swan Song seems interesting but I think Pyroblast might be better, the storm players in the TES forum like it so I would probably try Pyro over Swan Song.
There is no way to beat a Karakas w/o running another SB card or changing the list, just hope they don't have it.
We don't really discuss this deck on the source, most DDFT discussing occurs on stormboards.
Yeah, my tendency is to go for the greediest manabase possible also. And the deck only really NEEDS to run 1 island 1 swamp, but i've reigned it in a bit and really have been digging the basics. Given enough mana the deck really seems to be able to plough through anything. And running 4-5 basics is really sweet vs. waste/stifle.dec allowing you to get to the point where you can make the deck really do some working going off. And in my mind Emrakul is there specifically against the counterbalance matchups, so you no longer have to resolve anything (counterable) post DD, and they dont play waste - just the 1 of karakas. And they might be able to catch you with a terminus if they have enough permanents (bad news, bears). I love the plan, but it seems like decay is better because its out of your control if they have it or not. Even if the chances are small-ish.... Yh I think I talked myself back to the green splash. The swarms are definitely awesome at the moment :). I actually find it nice having some counterspells in the deck. It enables you to function a bit like a vintage combo/control deck. Swan songing someones entreat the angels was pretty sweet, and the deck is much less reliant on LED (pre-DD) than most other storm decks, so maybe there is some room for some counters... I also dont really like cantripping so aggressively most times (unless there is some potential kill on or have a ton of them, or need to hide something with brainstorm) so I could usually have the mana for it if I needed to. Its not really been a problem for me...
Yh I used to play TES a lot with 2 pyroblast in the board back in the day, and found them to be great. But to be honest, the cards that I find hard to play around aren't actually blue... I find liliana (ok, so you cant swan song her either :)) hard to play through, and surgical extractions my own personal nightmare. But swan song seems to hit most things that I dislike. From counterspells, to discard, to counterbalance or a leyline of sanctity that they play out it seems sweet. Still dont know if its better than the swarms though...
Yeah, im registered over there too, although Im not such a regular visitor. Good to get ideas from everywhere, dont you think?
The Spannish Tunnel King
Doomsday (sb/LM view) - December 2013
-------------------------
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Ideas Unbound
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Doomsday
4 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Swamp
My sideboard has been this:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Doomsday
1 Infernal Contract
1 Time Spiral
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Massacre
1 Karakas
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island
1 Laboratory Maniac
A few explanations:
Tendrils of Agony maindeck provides some additional capabilities in terms of cheap
Brainstorm piles and Chain of Vapor piles. I want the 2nd in my 75, and I consider
the utility provided by a maindeck Tendrils higher than the 18th land (Karakas/Trop Island),
Lab Maniac, Abrupt Decay, Empty the Warrens, or Infernal Contract.
There is only a single Lotus Petal. This means foresight about floating mana
into a Doomsday pile by breaking Lotus Petal is sometimes going to be necessary.
Don't be the guy who doesn't crack Lotus Petal and then has no way to get starter
mana in their pile. With a single Lotus Petal, ETW is worse, and thus a third
Abrupt Decay plus the functionality of Lab Maniac replaces it.
A Duress has been cut for a Chromatic Sphere. Chromatic Sphere serves two major purposes:
(1) Provides a lab maniac pile that is immune to removal and LED compatible (2UU).
(2) Provides a way to store a draw step with Doomsday. This makes 5 total.
Filtering mana is obviously useful in a deck with basics and specific black/blue requirements.
Additionally, it's just another cantrip for 1 sometimes. (Which means +2 mana via an
in-pile LED for those of you paying attention.)
The manabase is optimized for providing stable mana in the face of disruption while still
providing access to lots of colors. Four basics mean you can use your cantrips to bury
opponents in card quality. The fetch config means all 9 fetches have access to all
colors.
The choice of Laboratory Maniac should be looked at as part of an overall strategy to
combat permanent-based hate. Laboratory Maniac is a Tendrils of Agony with a builtin
Rushing River. It's also a viable pass the turn pile that isn't vulnerable to much
(red blast, normal countermagic) for 2UU and optimally vulnerable to creature removal
for 1UU. This is extremely important in attrition-based matchups like SnT where you often
need to beat both countermagic and a clock. Beating both and Leylines is often too much.
Lab Man evens the field greatly.
It's possible that the build isn't optimal in regards to usage of Lab Man. I'm highly
considering the 4th Duress, Lab Man, and a Karakas as a combined package over
Chain of Vapor, Tendrils of Agony, and a card to be named. This would allow more
aggressive lines with respect to pass the turn piles when Duress/Therapy/Probe reveals
an opportunity. It's entirely possible that such a build would eschew the 17th UB land
maindeck for a 2nd Lotus Petal in order to get more turn 2 Doomsdays.
Against Show and Tell, you want your 60 to look like this:
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Chromatic Sphere
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Lab Maniac
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Infernal Contract
4 Burning Wish
3 Doomday
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
Against Mono Blue SnT, you leave out Karakas for an Island. You might also consider
cutting Infernal Contract since there is no danger of red blasts, but a draw4 is
also useful in an attrition war.
I need to go, but I intend to post some follow up advice on Delver variants, DnT, UWx Control, Elves, and the Storm
pseudo-mirror. I'd also like to explore a maindeck Lab Man view of the deck, but I need some testing before really tackling that.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
First up, nice to see you back on DD :D. Some comments/questions for you!
Karakas is better than Slaughter Pact against Thalia, Griselbrand, and Emrakul. While it is worse against Canonist and Mage, those are seeing play from decks with countermagic. I'd be siding in a Massacre and Abrupt Decays in those matchups to avoid getting my removal spell countered. Canonist also sees play in DnT, but is much less of a threat than Thalia. Mother can protect both in any event (Canonist or Thalia or Revoker) so I'm going to need Massacre more than likely (hence one to side, one to wish).
ETW utility against Delver is something to consider more.
You don't need Lab Man to do everything against Counterbalance. You have Abrupt Decays for that. Also, it is actually reasonably to stack Abrupt Decay and then Ideas Unbound into a Lab Man pile against a UW deck postboard. You were already planning on passing twice with Shelldock Isle. Sure, they can theoretically counter your Lab Man, but you actually do have Duress/Therapy still available (this is one of those places where having basics so you can tap lands for mana actually matters).
Chain of Vapor is a means to an end. There are only a few cards that it solves in g1 (Leyline of Sanctity from UW/Mono Blue SnT, Gaddock Teeg from Bant/Elves/Maverick, and Thalia / Revoker from DnT ). It's mostly there extending your sideboard. Karakas is comparable (sometimes better, sometimes worse) at dealing with Teeg/Thalia and playing a Lab Man would eliminate the need to deal with Leyline of Sanctity and Gaddock Teeg. The huge upside is that you would be able to build the deck to aggressively capitalize on mulligans/bad keeps/poor draws from the opponent.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
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