What's the best strategy for winning the mirror? Orim's Chant appears to be the key; ideally, it seems that you want to Chant them before going off in order to prevent them from Chanting you mid-combo. However, if they respond to your Chant with a Chant, then they can go off on their turn without interference. It seems like the matchup becomes a defensive stalemate, since the first player to play their Chant will likely lose. Do you play around Chant entirely by forgoing the combo and attempting to win with Street Wraith beats (assuming you're still running Wraiths and not Tops), or do you attempt to amass multiple Chants, allowing you multiple attempts at Chanting before going off? Or is there some other strategy that I'm missing entirely?
Post-board, I assume that Confidants (or Counterbalances?) come in. Is that correct? What do you board out?
Originally Posted by Volt
The mirror hinges entirely on Orim's Chant and Abeyance superiority. It goes roughly like this. Never, ever, ever cast Orim's Chant unless your opponent has mana floating. Ever. I mean it. Now with that said, bluffing/baiting comes into play. The easiest way to win the Chant superiority war is to Extirpate an opponent's Chants. The easiest way to get an opponent to play their Chants is to play your own Chant. However, if you don't actually win the game after your chant (assuming they don't play a chant, you're down a Chant). Also, if they respond with Chant, their optimal play on their upkeep (as they get priority first) is to Chant you. This prevents you from Extirpating their Chants (at least without them getting a protected turn) and they get the potential to go off on their turn. It's possible that they have an Extirpate of their own. If this is the case, you will lose your Chants. If they don't have a second Chant, then you actually still need a Chant because they could very possibly go off on their turn. Now, we need to factor in Abeyance, which is harder to extirpate and does the same thing as Chant making you need more chants. So, the rule becomes roughly:
Don't chant your opponent unless they are winning the game, or unless you can win the game/extirpate their chants and hold another Chant/Abeyance. If at all possible, win the game by casting Street Wraith or Dark Confidant then attacking with them.
To win game one safely without Street Wraith, you'll want to assemble a hand of roughly (in the Petal-less version) Chant, Extirpate, Death Wish, Infernal Tutor (with either enough LEDs on the table to win with it or extra rits in hand). Any extra Chants are helpful, but not strictly required. You need to Death Wish for Abeyance, then on your turn, lead with Abeyance. If it resolves, you win the game. If your opponent Chants you (much more likely) you Extirpate their Chants on their upkeep as soon as you get priority (they may not know about Extirpate or not have another Chant). If they chant you here, you Chant back. Then you should win on your turn barring an opponent who plays a 3/1 split of Abeyance. Obviously if they don't Chant you, you save the Chant for your turn.
To win game one safely with Street Wraith, wait until you make it to 7 mana sources (2 white sources) and then cast Street Wraith. (You need 7 because if your opponent eot Wipe Aways your Chant mana (which can happen with only 6 mana sources) you'll lose the game. Cast Chants against their ritual effects and their Chants. Death Wish -> Extirpate will probably be very strong if you have it available.
Postboard, do not board in ETW. The standard boarding should be to bring in any number of Extirpates, Chants, Abeyances, Confidants, and cards that can bounce multiple permanents (specifically Echoing Truth). 1x IGG, 1x Tendrils, 4x Dark Ritual, 1x Draw4 (debateable, but I don't like being in Confidant/SW range so early), and 1x Wipe Away.
Theoretically, CounterTop could provide superiority in the Chant wars, but I haven't been using it much lately because the combo mirror is the only place where it's really better than anything else.
Properly played, the mirror is entirely luck-based. The best advice past what I've given is "draw well".
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Just noticed something. I'm not gonna mention C h a n t, so people can (unless anyone else types c h a n t more times) press CTRL + F to search for c h a n t. It gave me 52 results on this page of the thread! :O That is an average of 17,33 INCLUDING my post where I haven't wrote C h a n t anywhere. Never mind, proceed:
By the way, the analysis of the Orim's wars: Do you always need Orim in opening hand? I see there's a lot of talk about it, but is it really necessary? (No, I'm not talking about taking it out of the deck, that would be a dumb thing to do)
"You're English is terrible and inconsistent."
-DownSyndromeKarl
I think postboard you don't need any if you play against a deck, you don't need protection against. Preboard I think it depends on your metagame, if you know that there's a lot of control, you probably want to have chant, or at least some cantrip/tutor to get it. But if you're meta is rather consisting of aggro you could afford to hold a chantless hand, if it is fast enough to win before the aggro player kills you (which actually is almost every hand that isn't just crappy).
So chant isn't necessary but it's better to have it, and actually c h a n t is never really a dead card.
I just have to say that it is lots of fun to win the mirror by chanting ur aponent while they have mana floating.
This is my current deck list.
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Wipe Away
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Ponder
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Orim's chant
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Infernal Contract
1 Extirpate
2 Sensei's Diving Top
SB:
4 Serenity
4 Dark Confidant
1 Death Wish
1 Rushing River
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Sudden Death
2 Abeyance
I haven't missed the Street Wraiths at all. The one spot I've been constantly changing is Extirpate, replacing it with more bounce and Death Wish at times. Death Wish has always been frustrating to me game 1 against most decks, which was why it was moved to the sideboard. Few decks main deck extirpate, but after Sideboarding I find it very helpful against thoughtseize->extirpate.
The Tops have been great for me in testing. Two seems likes the correct number; I operate fine without them, but they usually help smooth the deck out and are obviously synergistic with Mystical Tutor.
Extirpate has been O.K. so far. As I said, I'm constantly switching this spot, but sometimes Extirpate just turns out being a non-cantripping split second Sorcerous Sight.
All in all, I've been testing this deck for many games and so far love it. It's very powerful and I haven't really been truly disappointed with any part of it yet.
I highly suggest testing out Doomsday. I've been playing it over a Ponder, an IGG, or an Extirpate as a 1-of. It does really stupid things against hate and is far easier to mystical for than 2 rituals and another tutor.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I've been using Lim-Dul's Vault since forever. Doomsday won't be useful to go off unless you already have protection in hand and it will usually require some other card investiment (unless maybe with 17 lands), while Lim-Dul's Vault will be castable basically anytime past turn 1 only by tapping two lands.
No one beside me has ever used LDV as a setup for 2 cards and I remember everyone was arguing that it's so rare to need to setup 2 or more cards that it isn't worth it. So, the decks wins without the need for that kind of setup. Then, why would we need Doomsday now?
EDIT - Corrected a silly grammar error.
Keep moon-walking.
Doomsday doesn't actually require any other cards to win the game. Orim's Chant and Brainstorm/Ponder/Top are nice to have protection and to win that turn, but Doomsday doesn't really take anything else. Lim-Dul's Vault sets up 1-2 cards. Doomsday immediately wins the game turning the combo from 1-3 rituals, infernal tutor, chant to doomsday, chant. It seems that this is a significant difference. Perhaps the biggest play with Doomsday is setting up Double Tendrils immediately.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
So, would that 2nd IGG be needed at all now there's Doomsday?
Keep moon-walking.
Probably not required, although I'm keeping it currently because the easiest way to win the game is still Infernal Tutor + LED. Doomsday wins the game, but will normally require some amount of help from Brainstorm if it's to win that turn. Doomsday is also very life-dependent (a lot of the best stacks use Death Wish in addition to Doomsday or Doomsday twice). This lets you have different outs in individual situations, but I don't think it necessarily will relegate IGG #2 to worthless.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
So is doomsday a maindeck option or a death wish target?
I'm playing it main.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
emidln, what are some of the more common doomsday stacks that you set up. What hate does the doomsday kill help against.
Thanks
You can see some of usual Doomsday piles for FT here.
Doomsday seems to be good for going off without using IGG at all while not having enough storm to kill with a single Tendrils which would take its place. You must protect yourself against counters and Stifle before casting Doomsday as you would do with Infernal Tutor. If you can afford to, you can stick a Chant in your pile so you get away from being Stifled if you didn't get rid of it before.
Keep moon-walking.
Doomsday actually sounds fairly powerful. I think it would work in variants that use heavy Chanting and Duressing to protect the combo. Perhaps Duress/Chant--> Doomsday --> Streetwraith/brainstorm --> Win (need to find a good Doomsday stack that wins).
This sounds like an interesting idea to start a Doomsday Tendrils deck. Protect your combo with Duress/Chant and Doomsday into:
1 Careful Study
1 Infernal Tutor/LED depending if you already have LED/Infernal Tutor in your graveyard
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 ???
Draw the first card of the stack with a free Streetwraith or Careful Study/Brainstorm.
Keep IGG and LED/Infernal Tutor depending on what mana you have or what cards you have in hand.
Play IGG and get another 2 spells played, returning Careful Study (will draw to zero cards in deck) or Streetwraith to draw Tendrils.
Cast LED with IGG and win with Tendrils.
I might start a thread in the New and Developing Section for this decklist. It's pretty strong, but it depends heavily on protecting the combo, which makes it weaker than the current deck. But Doomsday is a possible inclusion, but not in this deck.
You will no longer have a graveyard after casting Doomsday and I don't think you'd like to discard LED or IT to Careful Study, which is an awful card for any combo deck. Also, Duress isn't worth the inclusion, since Chant does whatever it does much better and it even gets to do more stuff (this has been discussed already).
Keep moon-walking.
Ah yah! Damn, so Brainstorm over Careful Study, play the free LED-->IGG
Actually come to think about it: Doomsday removes the graveyard which IGG needs so I think it's possibly not that fitting in this deck. I guess we should scrap the idea. I'll still think about it though.
Yeah, running 3 Chants as usual, but with added Duresses if playing with the Doomsday version.
The thing about Doomsday is that, after you cast it, you no longer need IGG. You use it so you can set up to 5 spells, which will sum up to 6 storm. Only in extreme situations you would need to stick IGG into your 5 card library so you could loop those few once and get enough lethal storm and, even then, you can win with zero cards in the graveyard.
Straight from the Doomsday Piles thread:
I'm pretty much convinced that Doomsday is the most powerful thing that happened to this deck recently.
Keep moon-walking.
I think IGG should be 2nd/3rd from the stack depending on your hand for consistency. You don't usually have the mana to draw 3 and Doomsday together (6cc). Streetwraith/Brainstorm helps and IGG allows for more consistent wins. I agree that Doomsday is a huge win in the deck, but it involves making the deck more resilient to hate i.e. running more Duress/Chant to protect it.
Hell, Doomsday with a crappy stack like 4 Stomping Slab also wins, so it's usually protecting and resolving Doomsday that signals the win. I think this deck is capable of pulling it off, although it involves more work on refining and tuning it to include Doomsday.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote