[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

[Kidbails]

Although, Kidbails list looks already nice (I wouldn't play the Lab Man in the main and I would play a MD CoV).

I've found that either is fine. Chain of vapor I think is better at beating hate and lab man gives you the option for a faster pass the turn pile. I think it might be more important in a version without burning wish because we lose the option to make a pass the turn pile featuring time spiral, but I don't think that's a primary reason to have lab man instead. We still have the double doomsday option, I'm just terrible with double doomsday piles. Personal preference mostly.

[the driver]

This is what I'm running as a start. Similar to my sketch and close to Kidbails.

Business
4x Doomsday
1x Dark Petition
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ideas Unbound

Cantrips
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Mana
4x Dark Ritual
1x Rain of Filth
1x Cabal Ritual
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
2x Lotus Petal

Protection
4x Silence
2x Duress
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Chain of Vapor

Lands
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
3x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Karakas

-Sideboard-
2x Tropical Island
2x Xantid Swarm
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Dread of Night
2x Flusterstorm
1x Infernal Contract
1x Duress
1x Lab Maniac

Going to test it a bunch soon. So far I haven't felt like I needed a 2nd Dark Petition but time will tell. The board is just a guess but I want to consider more options that also take advantage of Doomsday and hopefully fill the void of Wish --> Empty and Wish -->Time Sprial that I used often. Although, finding Doomsday more often may do that. It's fun trying the new card out.

[Kanti]

I don't see why you would want to ruin your mana-base to run Silence, when Therapy+Probe/other discard combos so nicely. I'd be inclined to go -4 Silence, +3 Cabal Therapy, -1 Lotus Petal, +2 Dig through Time. Since you're not going for quick LED>Wish taking out Petals is a decent idea for a better late-game.

Then you can go -1 Scrubland, -1 Tundra, -1 Plains, +1 Island, +1 Swamp, +1 Underground Sea for a super-solid mana-base, and you still have Karakas.

[the driver]

I don't see why you would want to ruin your mana-base to run Silence, when Therapy+Probe/other discard combos so nicely. I'd be inclined to go -4 Silence, +3 Cabal Therapy, -1 Lotus Petal, +2 Dig through Time. Since you're not going for quick LED>Wish taking out Petals is a decent idea for a better late-game.

Then you can go -1 Scrubland, -1 Tundra, -1 Plains, +1 Island, +1 Swamp, +1 Underground Sea for a super-solid mana-base, and you still have Karakas.

Considering I just cut red from that manabase, I'm feeling great! The mana is totally fine.

Silence vs discard has been debated in Doomsday for a while and theres plenty of posts on the pluses / minuses. I recently tried Silence and am not looking back.

[l33twash0r]

Considering I just cut red from that manabase, I'm feeling great! The mana is totally fine.

Silence vs discard has been debated in Doomsday for a while and theres plenty of posts on the pluses / minuses. I recently tried Silence and am not looking back.

What about Orim's Chant instead of Silence?

[Namida]

It's basically choosing between having the ability to kick Orim's Chant and being able to cast your protection against opponents who can't be targeted.

[Togores]

Why now no one is building a dig version of doomsday. And even more if your not playing a cabal full version ?

[Lemnear]

Why now no one is building a dig version of doomsday. And even more if your not playing a cabal full version ?

You could run Cabal Ritual + Dark Petition or DTT + Street Wraith, but it looks like people in this thread still love SDT + Wish (+Silence) for whatever reason. Not worth your time Rodrigo and neither mine.

[Countertoplol]

You could run Cabal Ritual + Dark Petition or DTT + Street Wraith, but it looks like people in this thread still love SDT + Wish (+Silence) for whatever reason. Not worth your time Rodrigo and neither mine.

I get that you love to try to start arguments, but people are testing with cabal ritual + dark petition as we speak. It's been posted in this thread as well as stormboards. Also, most wish/SDT lists are running discard, not silence.

[Kanti]

Don't see why you would ever cut SDT from the deck. From reading your past posts here all you do is bang on about SW, a card that you probably have never tested in the deck. Since you have last spoken about SW, how has it performed for you vs SDT? I can only agree with your sentiments on Silence.

Anyhow, yes, DTT deserves some shout-outs here, though the UU is rough.

[Namida]

It isn't like people here aren't open to change. It remains to be seen if Dark Petition is the real deal here and worth playing Cabal Rituals again. I'll certainly try it out and if it works out I'd be sad to see my Burning Wishes go. It's just a pretty tall order to justify Dig Through Time and Street Wraith over Sensei's Top and Burning Wish. I mean, I guess you're still playing the same number of cantrips if you switch out Tops for Wraiths, but I like the versatility of playing cards that aren't just combo pieces and that's what I feel Street Wraith is.

Dig Through Time is powerful, but I feel like it requires you to jump through more hoops than Burning Wish does to get it to work, and Burning Wish contributes to a lot of the Turn 1-2 wins I get with this deck by being +1 Storm, which Dig Through Time can't do. That's probably fine if you don't want to win through Storm (Laboratory Maniac is plenty viable) or you don't care about being fast, but it seems like the main thing people complain about when they talk about Doomsday is that they can't get it to kill as quickly as ANT. Also, I don't think Cabal Ritual is a reason to play Dig Through Time. People originally started moving away from Cabal Ritual when Gitaxian Probe was printed because that made Ideas Unbound's double cantrip piles more appealing than playing Meditate and other Draw 4 spells because Ideas Unbound (+Burning Wish) casts more spells for the same amount of mana or less; Cabal Ritual's mana cost has a nasty habit of making you end up with BBBU and unable to cast Ideas Unbound in the same turn. I imagine there would be similar issues with Dig Through Time--frankly, the mana cost is the main reason the card was initially dismissed and playing more black intensive cards doesn't make that problem go away. In a nutshell, it feels kind of crazy to me to try to play BBB spells, spells that make BBB, and then multiple UU spells in your deck and then claim that this is the best configuration to go with--the power of Dig Through Time means nothing if you can hardly cast it. And really, I'm not even that hot on playing Cabal Ritual again in the first place--as I said before, I don't like playing a ton of cards that are mainly combo pieces; I enjoy that the deck gets away with a minimum number of fast mana since cantrips make mana after you stack your deck. I'm going to try it out, but Dark Petition would have to be pretty awesome for me to be happy about having more rituals in my deck.

[Squirrel]

Why now no one is building a dig version of doomsday. And even more if your not playing a cabal full version ?

I'm a storm addict, but in no way an expert in this deck, but i have saved this in cockatrice vor some time now:

3 Doomsday
3 Burning Wish
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
2 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ideas Unbound
2 Dig Through Time
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Flooded Strand
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Void Snare
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 2 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Cruel Bargain
SB: 1 Time Spiral

Feel free to make it better/take it to a tournament.

[Lemnear]

Don't see why you would ever cut SDT from the deck. From reading your past posts here all you do is bang on about SW, a card that you probably have never tested in the deck. Since you have last spoken about SW, how has it performed for you vs SDT? I can only agree with your sentiments on Silence.

Anyhow, yes, DTT deserves some shout-outs here, though the UU is rough.

Mainly because SDT is a very slow and mana-intense card which does not create raw cardadvantage like DTT and maneuvers Doomsday as a combo deck into a really unfortunate position in this metagame. Wraith/Dig makes the deck a lot faster and helps grabbing combo-parts and/or protection on demand while you otherwise would durdle with SDT + fetches for several turns to see a similar amount of cards. It performed pretty good to support Doomsday and make the deck a lot more streamlined, which I think is desirable. Of course it does not "fix" the known issues with the card Doomsday itself, but casting eot DTT with a Ritual in hand to just grab Probe + Doomsday, untap and combo, is really strong and nothing Dark Petition can do at all as it can only increase the density of virtual Doomsdays for the cost of an additional two mana. You can untap after DTT, but with DP it's not possible.

It isn't like people here aren't open to change. It remains to be seen if Dark Petition is the real deal here and worth playing Cabal Rituals again. I'll certainly try it out and if it works out I'd be sad to see my Burning Wishes go. It's just a pretty tall order to justify Dig Through Time and Street Wraith over Sensei's Top and Burning Wish. I mean, I guess you're still playing the same number of cantrips if you switch out Tops for Wraiths, but I like the versatility of playing cards that aren't just combo pieces and that's what I feel Street Wraith is.

As mentioned above, the idea of Dark Petition has serious drawbacks as it costs a total of 5 mana to cast Doomsday instead of 3 in addition to all costs you need to afford to combo off, while DTT allows you to setup your combo during your opponents turn and not only frees up a full two mana compared to DP, doesn't require Cabal Rituals, but also creates pure cardadvantage. The competition here is not even close, so I'm baffled testing is done with DP rather than with DTT in this thread. Maybe because I was talking about DTT in combination with Wraith (which is a redundancy tool) and questioning SDT which rubbed some people the wring way to dismiss the idea directly.

Dig Through Time is powerful, but I feel like it requires you to jump through more hoops than Burning Wish does to get it to work, and Burning Wish contributes to a lot of the Turn 1-2 wins I get with this deck by being +1 Storm, which Dig Through Time can't do. That's probably fine if you don't want to win through Storm (Laboratory Maniac is plenty viable) or you don't care about being fast, but it seems like the main thing people complain about when they talk about Doomsday is that they can't get it to kill as quickly as ANT.

"Jumping though hoops" isn't the right term if you are able to cut a color and run a manabase with basics while being a lot more resistant to counters, discard and Counterbalance (DTT->Decay + X). You can't seriously talk about being fast, if you run SDT and are fine to durdle the next full 2-4 turns with it (not even talking about the mana invested) to see the same number of cards Wraith/Dig does in a blink of an eye. There is a lot of potential modgame power still burried between DTT and Rain of Filth as well once you hit 3 lands or more. Imagine the setup with 4 lands in longer games: the interaction of both cards wield 7 mana and 2 fresh cards by themselves.

Also, I don't think Cabal Ritual is a reason to play Dig Through Time.

No one said you should run both.

People originally started moving away from Cabal Ritual when Gitaxian Probe was printed because that made Ideas Unbound's double cantrip piles more appealing than playing Meditate and other Draw 4 spells because Ideas Unbound (+Burning Wish) casts more spells for the same amount of mana or less; Cabal Ritual's mana cost has a nasty habit of making you end up with BBBU and unable to cast Ideas Unbound in the same turn. I imagine there would be similar issues with Dig Through Time--frankly, the mana cost is the main reason the card was initially dismissed and playing more black intensive cards doesn't make that problem go away.

I don't get the point. You cast DTT eot, untap and win. Cabal Ritual ties up blue mana if you cast Dark Petition to grab Doomsday. Apples and Oranges.

In a nutshell, it feels kind of crazy to me to try to play BBB spells, spells that make BBB, and then multiple UU spells in your deck and then claim that this is the best configuration to go with--the power of Dig Through Time means nothing if you can hardly cast it.

Are you making points based on a configuration (DTT + Cabal Ritual) I did not suggested nor claimed to be the best? Do you really tell me that casting eot DTT is unbearable for Doomsdays manabase? I beg to pardon. Can you start to differ Wraith/Dig and Cabal/Petition as two different approaches for further discussion and getting the idea out of your head that you ever want to cast DTT & Doomsday in a single turn?

And really, I'm not even that hot on playing Cabal Ritual again in the first place--as I said before, I don't like playing a ton of cards that are mainly combo pieces; I enjoy that the deck gets away with a minimum number of fast mana since cantrips make mana after you stack your deck. I'm going to try it out, but Dark Petition would have to be pretty awesome for me to be happy about having more rituals in my deck.

I gave my 0.02$ about Cabal Ritual and Petition which is imo horrible. If I just look the the combined mana-requirements to cast Petition into Doomsday and combo off immediately, I'm getting dizzy, aside the question why you bother with Doomsday at all if you could win with PIF at this commiting point of deckbuilding and close 52-card overlap with ANT (if you cut Wishes for petition)

[Namida]

I apologize; I thought the person you were replying to was asking "Why aren't you testing DTT if you are playing Cabal Ritual?"

Let's start over. In what way does Dig Through Time speed the deck up? I fail to see how Dig Through Time makes the deck faster than with Top and Burning Wish. Doomsday is a consistent Turn 3 deck. When I play Top, it isn't often that I'm sitting there and "durdling around" Turns 2-4. If I cast Turn 1 Top, it's often as a saved draw; the draw plus having Burning Wish in my deck for +1 Storm in double cantrip piles directly contributes to my ability to execute the combo on Turn 2. What does your decklist look like, to make Dig Through Time push this deck's Turn 2 win rate?

[QQQ]

Just a thought. If DP lets Red be cut, and the deck be essentially a two color deck with a light SB splash, then I think Lake of the Dead could be run. It directly facilitates DP into DDay with a combination of U and B floating. After turn three, it helps ignore taxing counters, especially Flusterstorm, which it doesnt increase count for. And if you are running DTT and/or Cabal, it will likely guarantee being able to cast either pre-Dday. Even post-Dday if you dont have to activate it to cast Dday. And it was erratad with Mox Diamond and the like so there is no opportunity for your opponent to Waste the target in response, nor is there a trigger to be Stifled. The CiP effect is a special action(playing a land), and the sac is a mana ability.

[leegoo]

DTT does not speed up DD, if anything it slows it down. (at best you might DTT on 3) If the idea were a faster DD deck, you'd be playing personal tutor. DTT is ok (w/ street wraith) but not anything special imo. Fine, but not groundbreaking.

DD is a t4 deck in basically all of it's current configurations, with the possibility of being faster some amount of the time.

Just observations... ymmv.

[Lemnear]

I apologize; I thought the person you were replying to was asking "Why aren't you testing DTT if you are playing Cabal Ritual?"

Let's start over. In what way does Dig Through Time speed the deck up? I fail to see how Dig Through Time makes the deck faster than with Top and Burning Wish. Doomsday is a consistent Turn 3 deck. When I play Top, it isn't often that I'm sitting there and "durdling around" Turns 2-4. If I cast Turn 1 Top, it's often as a saved draw; the draw plus having Burning Wish in my deck for +1 Storm in double cantrip piles directly contributes to my ability to execute the combo on Turn 2. What does your decklist look like, to make Dig Through Time push this deck's Turn 2 win rate?

You know it; I know it; everyone who actually played a few games with Doomsday knows, that Doomsday is neither consistent nor a turn 3 deck, but more a turn 4 one given you find the Doomsday, the fitting mana to cast it, a way to draw into the pile and potentially required protection all in the meantime, which DTT does with a higher consistency and less color requirement than Wish/SDT to REALLY combo turn 3-4 thanks to the actual cardadvantage and improved cardselection especially against resistance. I dunno if we really should start discussing builds, if you set hyperboles like "SDT Doomsday kills consistent turn 3" and "DTT list have to push turn 2 win rates" as the base for discussion, especially if you admit that people complain about the decks speed. They would not if the deck would really kill "consistent turn 3".

Just a thought. If DP lets Red be cut, and the deck be essentially a two color deck with a light SB splash, then I think Lake of the Dead could be run. It directly facilitates DP into DDay with a combination of U and B floating. After turn three, it helps ignore taxing counters, especially Flusterstorm, which it doesnt increase count for. And if you are running DTT and/or Cabal, it will likely guarantee being able to cast either pre-Dday. Even post-Dday if you dont have to activate it to cast Dday. And it was erratad with Mox Diamond and the like so there is no opportunity for your opponent to Waste the target in response, nor is there a trigger to be Stifled. The CiP effect is a special action(playing a land), and the sac is a mana ability.

Is there any real advantage of Lake of the Dead over Rain of Filth as it does nothing on it's own?

[QQQ]

Is there any real advantage of Lake of the Dead over Rain of Filth as it does nothing on it's own?

Uncounterable. Especially by taxing counters when you would start your combo with it. Or by Fstorm when you would cast it towards the end.
Basically undiscardable.
Reusable. At least in longer games.
Multiple copies arent redundant. At least in longer games.
T3, Lake nets you four mana. It takes RoF two more turns to do so. And that's if somehow you have made all your land drops.
Gets around Hatebears. Thalia, Ethersworn, etc. Likewise, gets around Chalice and 3Sphere.

Off the top of my head. Probably more. Dont understand the last part. Rain does nothing on its own either.

[leegoo]

maybe...once upon a time when you could play lake and sacrifice your only other land for a ritual... probably not, but maybe. Now, no way. You open yourself up to way too many blowouts, even if wasteland isn't as common as it once was.

Sweet though... love Lake.

How are two NOT redundant? And lake is also useless on it's own.

It doesn't get around hate cards... you aren't overpowering any of the cards mentioned with lake (OR rof for that matter), and armageddoning yourself against taxing effects (either card) seems suicidal.

[QQQ]

maybe...once upon a time when you could play lake and sacrifice your only other land for a ritual... probably not, but maybe. Now, no way. You open yourself up to way too many blowouts, even if wasteland isn't as common as it once was.

Sweet though... love Lake.

How are two NOT redundant? And lake is also useless on it's own.

It doesn't get around hate cards... you aren't overpowering any of the cards mentioned with lake (OR rof for that matter), and armageddoning yourself against taxing effects (either card) seems suicidal.

I dont see how you could possibly allow Waste to affect Lake. They cant do it in response to playing it. They cant do it in response to the activation for any real effect. With a two-color manabase you have plenty of basics. With 9 fetches, its pretty easy to fetch for a Sea, play Lake and tap Sea for U before they get priority. Waste is easy to play around.

If you are in a long game. Say, against Miracles, you could easily have enough lands where you could play a Lake, pass the turn, then play another and activate both.

Lake is useless on its own. That is, if you have no Swamps. But Rain is fine if you have no Swamps?

RoF cant be resolved with Chalice in play. RoF nets you even less mana with Thalia in play. And even less with 3 Sphere in play. RoF cant cast a PTT Dday with Cannonist in play.

Assuming,as most would, that you have discard for hard counters, I have no problem losing lands to ignore soft counters the turn I go off.