What about the Infernal Tutor Iggy Pile
Yeah, the lack of the German DDFT made me sad (since I started playing the deck cause of that list).
Also, I played way to long with Helm + Grapeshot in the SB, especially since you can play pretty easy around Teeg and partly Thalia with it (double Helm ftw).
Greetings,
Kathal
Originally Posted by Lemnear
This is where I was in 2014 (from the storm boards)
UB/g Maniac DD
1 Lab Maniac
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Chromatic Sphere
4 Doomsday
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Personal Tutor
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Idea's Unbound
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Predict
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
SB:
2 Personal Tutor
1 Massacre
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Infernal Contract
1 Thoughtsieze
2 Dread of Night
1 Tropical Island
3 Xantid Swarm
IMO if you're building without maindeck wishes you need either Infernal tutors (german) to loop or Lab Maniac. Otherwise you will find yourself a storm count or so short too much (for my liking) But I pretty much came around to the thinking that Burning Wish is just too strong not to play. Or was in times past at least. In tournament play (especially paper magic) having Lab Man also made life a lot easier on longer days. There are often double doomsday or time spiral piles that will win you the game, but building them under pressure in a realistic time frame is reserved for masters only (I'd say Emidln and Lejay in his DD prime were the only ones that immediately jump to mind)
Not saying that was anywhere near ideal (and years ago still, much different format) but here's the thread if anyone wants to see where we were back then.
Swim, Bike, Run, MTG
The Doomsday Codex
We're catching bullets in our teeth,
Its hard to do but they're so sweet.
And if they take a couple out,
We try to work things out.....
Meow.
I had a fun dredge list that could sb into ddft. actually went 3-2 in a league with it.
-rob
Doomsday top 8 sighting at today's SCG Dallas.
Could you paste it here? Would like to read it and Im not in that forum.
I just know he beat Joe Losset the win and in.
hese were my match ups with some highlights.
Round 1 - Michael, Storm 2-0
Round 2 - Michael, 4C Delver 2-1
Round 3 - Doug, Shardless BUG 2-1
SPOILER: Click to hide
I mess up horribly in game 1. I knew what he was on before the match started, so when I saw an aggressive hand I kept. I had DR, DD, LED, GP and perfect information but had forgotten that IU was already in my hand. I make a shoddy past-the-turn pile with BW on the bottom, thinking I had the right amount of storm. I miscount the number of draws I have, have a dead GP and scoop them up knowing I was one storm shy of killing him. I do not know why I did not make a Lab Maniac pile.
Game 3 I am on kill turn, cast Cabal Therapy naming FoW, and I see 2 Decays in Doug's hand. This messes up a double LED pile, so I wait a turn. I am allowed to untap with perfect information, and stack IU, LED, GP, Rain, BW to play around the Decays.
Round 4 - Richard, MUD 2-0
SPOILER: Click to hide
Game 2 started with me playing around a known Wasteland, and an impending Sundering Titan (via fast lands and Grim Monolith). I have Island, Swamp, SDT in play, Brainstorm into LED, LED, Top, DD. I put DD on top, use my first LED/SDT to cast DD, and finish up with the second duo of LED/SDT.
Round 5 - Matt, UR Delver 2-1
SPOILER: Click to hide
Game 1 I see 2 Swiftspears, Probe revealed nothing but burn in hand. I punt by trying a PTT pile and forget that I am too low on life.
Game 3 I am torn between natural Tendrils or a DD on the penultimate turn. I am facing down a hellbent opponent with 2 un-flipped Delvers, a Swiftspear, and an active Lavamancer, and I have the board state of Tropical, Underground, Fetch, Top, Xantid Swarm with 1 Therapy in yard. My hand includes DR, LED, LED, Therpay, BW. SDT tells me I have DR, Ponder, Ponder at the top of my library. I am at 10 life.
The Delvers flip to Daze, and he swings for 7, leaving up 'Mancer. I am forced to block, as I die as soon as I fetch, and bereave that the dead Insects cannot cast me the Therapy in my yard. I realize that I am short 1 storm count on my own, and am too low of life to survive a DD + 'Mancer activation, so I have no choice but to hope Matt casts his Daze on something. I did nothing spectacular on my part, but after a slew of Rituals, he attempts to Daze my Cabal Therapy. His misplay gives me the storm I need and costs him the game.
Round 6 - David, Grixis Delver 2-0
SPOILER: Click to hide
Game 1 his only permission is 2 Daze. His only clock is a DRS, so I comfortably obtain mana and kill him without resistance.
Game 2 starts with a Delver on David's side. His hand dwindles down to Fire/Ice (revealed from Delver) and two unknowns. I have plenty of mana, DD and BW in my hand, SDT in play. I figure I can either a. bait him into Icing my SDT and killing him with natural BW > Tendrils, or just b. resolve DD, float a Duress on top and kill him with an Infernal Contract pile.
I cast DR, DR, DD and David tanks. As he is thinking I ask what Ice does, hoping I can actually bait him into doing it. What happens is even better, the Ice is pitched to a FoW, and the natural Tendrils line is wide open. He ends the game with a Pyroblast in his hand.
After the match, David's friend angrily comments "Doomsday is such a f***ed card!" Probably the best thing I heard all day.
Round 7 - Patrick, Reanimator 0-0-3
Round 8 - James, Shardless BUG (2-1)ID
SPOILER: Click to hide
Before pairings I am second, and was somehow paired against my friend in 9th place. He wants to play for a chance at top 8. I beat him in three games, and he asks for an ID. I agree, but he still ends up in 9th due to tie-breakers.
Top 8
Round 1
Mark - Recruiter Death and Taxes
SPOILER: Click to hide
I nab a quick game 1.
Mark responds quickly with a turn 2 Thalia in game 2. I am holding onto Burning Wish and a quick kill, but I never draw the lands to play around Thalia's tax and die to her, a Revoker, and a Canonist.
Game 3 opens with a mulligan to Delta, DR, DD, Brainstorm, Ponder and BS, with a land scry-ed on top. I drop a land and pass, as does he. I main phase BS and see Karakas, Therapy and Decay. My lands are now two Seas, with a hand of DR, DD, Ponder, Therapy. I think - all I need is a pass the turn pile. If he drops Thalia, I can drop Karakas on the following turn and call it a day. My other option is to Cabal Therapy, naming the other bears that kill me, and hope his draws don't get any more potent (in the form of Wasteland or something). I opt for the former option, stacking IU, GP, LED, SDT, Maniac. Sure enough, Mark has the Canonist. As I draw-go, more 2/2 Humans join the battlefield and maul me to death.
A friend, who happens to be fairly proficient at Doomsday, sat down and we tried to think of a PTT pile that played around Canonist, Thalia, and maybe Revoker. We came up with:
IU
Petal
Petal
Top
LM
/end
Cast IU using the two Seas, play Karakas, LP, LP, Top using Karkas. Discard Ponder and Cabal Therapy.
Untap, draw and cast Maniac.
While this pile plays around the hate bears, it loses to a Wasteland on one of the Seas.
What would you have done? The more I think about it the more I am convinced Therapy on Canonist was the right play.
Although I did not play any Miracles players, I still was pleased with the two main deck Abrupt Decays. Against MUD, while it did not need to hit any Chalices or 3Spheres, it did timely catch a Metalworker. Other times, it was just nice knowing I could buy time Decaying a Goyf or Delver. Chain of Vapor is cheaper, and reduces spreading out your colors, but it still gets blown up by Chalice and Counterbalance. I have been tempted to consider Chain, but I don't think it is the right call.
Xantid Swarms performed very well against the slew of Delver decks I ran into. I did not lose any games I put Swarm on the stack.
Void Snare was dead all day. I do not see many instances where I would need to Wish for it, especially with main deck Decays. Considering the metagame I would be happy to play a second Massacre, maybe even the third Xantid Swarm.
I also wonder if Shelldock Isle/Emrakul is good against Reanimator. I feel like it allows the DD player to aggressively pile into a quick win. After all, what is a Griselbrand (and maybe 2 lands) to an Emrakul? What are your thoughts?
I saw you on twitter and thought you where playing the win and in vs him. Was weird that you was positing on twitter that it was 1-0 but whatever^^
Which matchups is the Shelldock plan for?
After seeing somone making Top 8 last week with doomsday I decided to sleeve this beauty up again.
Ended up loosing the finals of the event. Was still great to play a card that reads:
BBB
Someone looses the game.
This where my matchups:
2-0 bug control
2-0 esper control
2-1 omnisneak
2-0 death and taxes
1-2 grixis delver
Empty was quite good in the sb used it like 1 time against sneak, one against taxes and one against grixis. I used it g2 against sneak. When he had a sneak in play but was without hand. But he drew a brainstorm and a griselbrand.
I missed xantid a bit, from how my matchups where and how my opponents sideboarded.
Also think that the chain and the maniac me are not really worth... But I dont know what to play instead because playing the decays like the list I copied is not my ideal plan.
Also the pulverize was worthless may be the void snare would have been better....
Last edited by Togores; 07-02-2016 at 07:23 PM.
Hi Doomsday enthusiasts,
Is there any kind of "excel sheet" (like the doc from Cheersburger) around for pile that dosent use BW to tutor for ToA ?
I ask this because all the material I found are BW related, and I want to stay in a 3 colors deck (UBG, because of Abrupt Decay and Xantid) and I can't figure out how to up to 10 the storm count :/
The basics piles I have found with this list (see below) is the following :
Cantrip+UUU - 7 storm
cast doomsday (1) into
IU
GP
LED
LED
TOA
Draw IU (with cantrip) (2)
cast IU (3) into GP, LED, LED
Play LED (4), LED (5)
Play GP (6), in response to GP crack LED for BBB BBB
Play Tendrils (7)
and
SDT in play+1UU - 7 storm
cast doomsday (1) into
IU
GP
LED
LED
TOA
Draw IU (with SDT)
cast IU (2) into SDT, GP, LED
Play SDT (3), LED (4), GP (5), in response to GP crack LED for BBB
Play LED (6), crack LED for BBB
Tap SDT to draw Tendrils
Play Tendrils (7)
UBG Maniac Doomsday
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Lotus Petal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ideas Unbound
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Doomsday
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
IT IS TWO AND A HALF MINUTES TO MIDNIGHT
I rather regret ever putting together a piles document in the first place. They are a crutch that prevent players from becoming good storm players. It's not feasible to memorize variations of a few core piles. Learn how to build a pile with your list. You need card advantage, a way to win, and probably some mana or draw inbetween (depending on whether your win is storm-based or cards in library based).
Take a closer look at the "standard" SDT pile without Burning Wish. You need card advantage. This is usually IU, although sometimes it's BW->Draw4, Brainstorm with extra cards in hand, or stored draws + bounce spells on SDT (abusing SDT's mechanics). Brainstorm is the cheapest way, but has non-mana requirements for cards in hand. IU is the cheapest without other requirements.
A quick overview:
[Top]
IU (Card Advantage)
LED (Mana)
LED (Mana)
GP (free draw + storm + additional storm off SDT if played out of order)
ToA (Win condition)
[Bottom]
With SDT in play and 3 mana available, you can make 5 storm from the pile trivially (casting all spells in the pile) and an extra 1-2 by trading mana production for casting SDT by using your draw spells out of order.
0) Tap SDT, drawing IU (1UU)
1) IU drawing SDT, LED, LED (1)
2) LED (1)
3) LED (1)
3) SDT (0)
4) Tap SDT, resp break LEDs for BBBUUU, drawing GP (BBBUUU)
5) GP drawing SDT (BBBUU)
6) SDT (BBBU)
7) Tap SDT to draw ToA, play ToA with 7 storm (16 lifeloss)
You'll notice that this is different than how you play out with Burning Wish, where you only want to typically cast SDT once inside the pile.
Back to building piles, we find that IU is our card advantage choice. This implies a few things. We get to draw 3 cards, and if we are starting with SDT, this means we will probably need 1UU to draw in (UU for Ideas Unbound to draw SDT + 2 cards of our choice). LED and Rain of Filth are the highest net mana producers in the deck, and typically we max out around 6 mana from our two cards. If you count the rebuy of SDT (bringing out cost up to 1UU) to take advantage of LEDs, we now know that 1UU gets us 6 mana to play something. Alternately, UU can get us 2 draws and we can ignore SDT. We have a third option as well, which is paying our third mana into SDT, using a single mana spell, and a free draw spell (like GP) to pay for a 3 mana (or less) spell on top of our deck with a further draw remaining.
When we analyze what piles can do for us, we typically think in terms of our highest leveraged cards. Often, we analyze a pile in terms of IU, SDT, GP, LP, LED, and ToA/BW/LM because these are just the most efficient ways of draw cards, making mana, and winning the game. Let's frame what IU can do for us in these terms:
1UU -> SDT, LED, LED -> 6 drop
1UU -> SDT, LED, GP -> 3 drop + draw
UU -> SDT, LED, GP -> 3 drop (don't recast SDT)
UU -> SDT, GP, GP -> drawing through your deck (0 cards left) (don't recast SDT)
1UU -> SDT, GP, GP -> drawing through your deck (drawing on an empty deck)
UU -> SDT, BS, LP -> drawing on an empty deck (don't recast SDT)
The 1UU -> SDT, LED, LED line is the conceptual basis of the BW->ToA and the straight ToA kill (buffered with an extra rebuy of SDT via GP).
The 1UU -> SDT, LED, GP line is the conceptual basis of the LM pile. We replay SDT, then LED+GP into LM and use SDT to win.
The other possibilities listed are less commonly useful, but it's important to frame your thoughts around piles in this way.
Now that we've figured out a card advantage spell, and we know from above that we should frame in terms of our most efficient cards first, we can easily pick a pile with LED / LED / GP and look to rebuy SDT since we'll be making an overabundance of mana from our LEDs. ToA has to be our last card.
The things worth talking about for Doomsday piles are interactions that might not be obvious. They tend to the building blocks for off-the-cuff piles in terms of pattern recognition. Once you recognize these, you can apply them in numerous ways. Memorizing piles just isn't that useful when you often need to remove a mana production spell for a disruption piece or you end up replacing a card in pile with something in hand to make it slightly cheaper.
Please think more about your deck. You literally have to cast Doomsday or your deck does close to nothing. You have no meaningful disruption to stop an aggro attack, so you must find your combo piece ASAP. You even recognize this by playing LDV. Play four copies of Doomsday.UBG List with less than 4 Doomsday
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
@Togores: Beautiful deck as usual, it's always a treat to see pimped DDFT. As you mentioned, you should definitely consider either cutting chain or maniac in the main, as they fill a similar role and I find it best to just have one or the other. If you cut chain, you can add a 17th land, another petal, or a chromatic sphere, all of which I believe have more maindeck utility than chain if you're already running lab man.
Congrats on making the finals of your tourny with the deck!
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