Also I more or less copied the list and changed the decays for more "good" cards. Would change things of I play it again. Also I think chromatic sphere is not needed. Ald usualy more than 1 petal is also not needed. I also think that a black land is missing. I would like to play 2nd badlands over a volcanic (I only own 1 badlands). I have always have the problem of liking more black lands than not. Because If you dont draw rituals casting doomsday is not easy. Durong the event I had to use led to play it far to many times.
Also on the pile malking, there is no sense on the spreadsheet. In and event you cant use it. And learning all options is nonsense and utopic.
Usualy you just figure them out.
What you wanna reach?
What you have?
What you need?
How much that costs?
Al this is quite easy. Just figure it out and build a pile. Usualy all piles are more or less the same...
Thank for the advices, I think I got how the building piles mechanics works. But I didn't find a piles that provide 10 storm (or more) from an LDV based list.
The more storm I was able to get is 7 storm (without counting extra DR or cantrip made before resolving DD).
IT IS TWO AND A HALF MINUTES TO MIDNIGHT
There aren't many piles that make the full 10 Storm on their own, and you shouldn't need those piles often anyway because in real situations you're probably casting other spells before Doomsday.
At the bare minimum, when you cast Doomsday and you build a pile that draw + cast every card in the pile, this is what you get:
Doomsday (+1 Spell)
The cantrip to draw into the pile (+1 Spell)
The five cards you chose (+5 Spells)
Your main way to make Doomsday reach lethal Storm will likely be planning out your turns to play additional spells before Doomsday. If that is unsatisfactory, the way that you make your Doomsday piles generate more Storm on their own is to include cards that can represent more than one spell. This requires a little work, because you can't just include a ton of cantrips since your library is only 5 cards and trying to just draw extra cards kills you; this means you need cards that can represent multiple spells without just taking them from the top of your deck. For example, two Sensei's Divining Tops let you loop the top of your deck for Storm if you have additional mana. Other options include Ill-Gotten Gains (cards from your graveyard) and Burning Wish (cards from exile). You are opting to play Lim-Dul's Vault instead of Burning Wish, so your extra business cards don't represent multiple spells in the same turn; as a result, choosing to play LDV is choosing to not have access to many of the piles that generate more than 7 Storm on their own.
I believe mostly for Miracles.Originally Posted by itrytostorm
Any slow non wasteland deck.
I still dont understand why ppl play lim duls over burning. seems like a card that makes -1 is much worser than a card that makes you deck better and makes you have an out to almost every game. + no lifeloss, and increasing of gameplans and tutors...
Most people (almost all) are still playing Burining Wish.
Is there anyone streaming doomsday on a regular basis?
I'm not aware of anyone who knows what they are doing that is.
This is the kind of deck you need to play to learn.
Actually Miracles is quite a bad one to try it against as they have the most answers. Terminus off of Top or BS, Karakas, Wasteland in Mentor builds, the occasional Venser all are very good at stopping the SI plan. Something like Sneak and Show is pretty good to bring it in if nothing else because you have the chance to SnT emmy in yourself.
The Doomsday Codex
We're catching bullets in our teeth,
Its hard to do but they're so sweet.
And if they take a couple out,
We try to work things out.....
Meow.
The pile that emidln posted on the last page gets to the same storm as the BW pile, since it uses the extra mana to replay top for additional storm. Counting DD, this pile makes 8:
[Top]
IU (Card Advantage)
LED (Mana)
LED (Mana)
GP (free draw + storm + additional storm off SDT if played out of order)
ToA (Win condition)
[Bottom]
With SDT in play and 3 mana available, you can make 5 storm from the pile trivially (casting all spells in the pile) and an extra 1-2 by trading mana production for casting SDT by using your draw spells out of order.
0) Tap SDT, drawing IU (1UU)
1) IU drawing SDT, LED, LED (1)
2) LED (1)
3) LED (1)
3) SDT (0)
4) Tap SDT, resp break LEDs for BBBUUU, drawing GP (BBBUUU)
5) GP drawing SDT (BBBUU)
6) SDT (BBBU)
7) Tap SDT to draw ToA, play ToA with 7 storm (16 lifeloss)
Team Serious
1000% Serious
Seriously
The issue is this increases the requirements for a winning pile. Either mana, specific cards (Top), or both are now necessary which makes other combinations not winning (less mana or other cantrips). Things get constrained even more when you are trying to cast disruption on the same turn, which is why the other scenarios are important. The deck, as a storm based deck, is worse without Wish. I would argue that Lab Maniac doesn't fix that either. But that may be a trade off you're willing to make to support other agendas.
Just want to reiterate that before people invest their time and draw conclusions.
I apologize if I misread this quote, but this is a very strong statement and discouraging testing seems to be needlessly constraining exploration of the deck. Especially after I had posted somewhat strong results (14-5) in gory detail in a relatively competitive meta (~50% Miracles, Delver, and Eldrazi), showing that a list without Burning Wish is at least worth some testing. And as background, I have been playing Doomsday with Burning Wish to some success (Local weekly events, SCG IQs, and Eternal Weekend) for a few years before testing a build without red.
To delve a bit deeper into the debate of Burning Wish vs. Lim-Dul's Vault (LDV), as this is the alternative that I have the most experience with:
This statement is not universally true. There are many scenarios where a list with Tendrils of Agony in the mainboard reduces the requirements for a winning pile, which also makes casting disruption on the same turn easier. For example, the double cantrip pile of:
Lion's Eye Diamond
Ideas Unbound
Lotus Petal
Dark Ritual
Tendrils of Agony
requires only the mana for the cantrips and Doomsday compared to
Lion's Eye Diamond
Ideas Unbound
Lotus Petal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Burning Wish
which does generate an extra storm, but also requires one extra mana (which could be used to cast disruption) in addition to mana for the cantrips and Doomsday.
Comparison of LDV and Burning Wish (Repost seems appropriate)
Advantage of LDV over Wish
-4 copies of Doomsday maindeck vs. 3 copies
-Can find fast mana, or maindeck bounce/decay at instant speed
-Castable off of Island+Swamp; much less vulnerable to Wasteland
-Stronger against discard
-More sideboard space
-Maindeck Tendrils allows for natural storm against resolved Counterbalance/Chalice of the Void
-Can find multiple combo pieces or combo+disruption with some consistency
Advantages of Wish over LDV
-Card disadvantage; this is especially important in post-board games where games are grindier
-Access to wishboard
-More utility post-Doomsday (can find a draw 4 or Tendrils of Agony) and can dodge Pyroblast at the cost of 3 extra mana
-Access to alternative engine (Time Spiral and Empty the Warrens for example)
-No lifeloss
-Does not reset top of the deck (can be a disadvantage)
Both are able to
-Find Doomsday, Tendrils, Discard, and Cantrip (requires an extra sideboard slot with Wish)
Speed of the Deck
Unless I have been playing the Burning Wish version suboptimally for years, I have found that the LDV version is faster by about an average of half a turn. There are many reasons for this, and below I compare the two builds in terms of both storm and mana requirements in common scenarios.
Comboing with 1 Initial Mana Source (IMS) + Cantrip Mana
This is the fastest scenario and the most common configuration is (in hand): Doomsday, Dark Ritual, Cantrip, LED/Cantrip. Brainstorm can replace the last two cards.
LDV is faster at setting this up as it can find both Dark Ritual, Doomsday, LED, or Probe, whereas Wish can only find Doomsday (or cantrip in the board, which is rare). Going through common scenarios:
Top + Cantrip; Wish creates 1 extra storm
Cantrip + Cantrip; LDV requires 1 less mana, but produces 1 less storm
LED + Cantrip; Wish creates 1 extra storm unless Repeal is maindeck
LED + Top; LDV creates 1 extra storm
Brainstorm + 2 blank cards: LDV requires 2 less mana, or same mana for same storm
Brainstorm + Burning Wish/Tendrils of Agony + blank card: LDV requires 1 less mana, but produces 1 less storm
Comboing with 3 Initial Mana Sources (IMS) + Cantrip Mana
In this case we do not need Dark Ritual and have either draw a Doomsday naturally (more likely with 4x Doomsday maindeck) or cast a tutor with the plan of comboing next turn. With LDV we are more resilient to Wasteland and Discard in this scenario at the cost of -1 card in hand. The differences in piles are similar to what has been illustrated above, although without casting Dark Ritual, the cost of -1 storm is higher.
LDV still has the advantage of being able to find LED. Also, not having to find a red source allows us to find 3 black-producing IMS more easily while also providing the blue required to cantrip.
Special Cases
Generating Storm with 2 Tops: Tendrils maindeck has an advantage as the win condition costs 2 less.
Using LED to cast Doomsday, which also requires a Top in play, and thus is slower due to having more requirements. In this scenario, Burning Wish is stronger as it does not require an extra draw effect.
Including Discard/Bounce/Decay in pile: In general this favors maindeck Tendrils as increasing the mana cost of the pile by 4-5 is less impactful when the mana requirement is naturally lowered by 2.
Conclusions
LDV enables comboing with 1-3 IMS more consistently as we are now running 4 copies of actual Doomsday and LDV can find a missing LED or Dark Ritual at the cost of having -1 card in hand. Having a naturally faster deck decreases the cost of replacing lands with Petals as our critical turn comes earlier.
The card disadvantage of LDV is especially painful postboard, but this can be mitigated by the extra sideboard space enabled from not having a wish-board, allowing more matchups to be targetted by narrower hate cards. This also allows for a transformational sideboard. Finally, we can also board out LDV in games 2 and 3.
Having Burning Wish can sometimes lead to an extra storm in Doomsday piles, but there are several cases where having a Tendrils of Agony maindeck leads to cheaper mana requirements, or even more storm. In many cases the extra storm provided by Burning Wish can be accounted for with a combination of Top and the cheaper mana requirement of Tendrils. Finally, having a maindeck Tendrils of Agony considerably increases our chances of winning against Counterbalance + Top game 1.
Cutting the tertiary color helps tremendously against Wasteland decks and improves our mana consistency in general (fetching Sea over Volcanic/Badlands allows us to more easily cast cantrips in addition to building the 3 black IMS required to cast Doomsday without Dark Ritual).
I do not think that testing a build without Burning Wish is a waste of time (even with the stock lists), and I believe that I have provided the necessary theory and empirical evidence to show this.
Edit: Giving credit for pile with Repeal
You cut wish, largely in part unless I missed something, to support a creature transformation sideboard. That qualifies to me as "supporting another agenda". People tried LDV in DDFT for years and settled on Wish because it supports being a combo deck in all 3 games better. Now if you're swapping DDs for creatures, then that's different.
UBr manabase can run 4 basics. That's been very stable versus wasteland in my experience.
There are very cheap piles with Tendrils. No argument. However, they lack storm. In order to generate comparable storms counts to a similarly costing Wish pile (with exceptions both ways) you need either specific resources (Top) and or additional mana. Therefore there will be an increased number of scenarios where you lack the storm count or resources required to win, which in turn reduces the number of "winning combinations" your MD can generate This becomes particularly important in certain matchups where the opponent doesn't lose life.
I'm not sure I follow your examples. You can put LDV back with brainstorm like you can with Wish. Maybe you are comparing maindeck Tendrils when you say LDV? In any case the Bennosti pile document showcases that comparison clearly.
Please don't take offense. I'm not discounting your results. I'm not trying to discourage testing things or people playing whatever they want. But just the notion that Wish is bad now and people are off it is not as pervasive as this thread suggests.
Thanks for the reply!
This is true. However, my results in game 1 have been very encouraging. You yourself noted that there were very few game 3's in my reports. This is due to the success I had with the maindeck (LDV over Wish). I believe that even without Mentors, exploring LDV over Wish has potential. At the very least, we get 15 sideboard slots.
True, but cutting red will lead to a strictly stronger manabase, as the maindeck is now only two colors. So we can debate on how much more stable the mana is, but the version without wish will be more stable.
First, I think that the number of scenarios where Wish generates an extra storm over maindeck Tendrils is over-exaggerated. In my provided examples there are 3 cases where Wish provides 1 more storm, but in 2 of those cases, maindeck tendrils requires less mana, which allows an extra cantrip and/or disruption spell to be cast. In the latter cases, maindeck Tendrils is stronger as a cantrip can result in +1 storm overall (cantrip into petal/LED/discard), and the benefits of casting discard on the combo turn are obvious. Having a lower initial mana requirement also increases our chances of cantripping into the missing combo piece and winning on the same turn. Let me know if the example cases are not clear or if I miscalculated the minimum requirements. If I am correct, I do not think that there is a clear-cut advantage of Wish over maindeck Tendrils in terms of winning piles.
In the Top+LED case, maindeck Tendrils actually allows for +1 storm over the Burning Wish version.
To summarize, in a majority of scenarios the Wish-less version is capable of providing the same storm count for the same mana with very loose requirements (any additional 1 mana spell works) and there are scenarios where maindeck Tendrils actually provides more storm and/or has less mana requirements, which makes it more flexible. I personally did not run into any issues in my testing with storm count, but I am running 4x Lotus Petals, which, as I mentioned earlier, is less of a risk due to the faster nature of the Wish-less list.
Finally, I don't recall mentioning LDV when talking about piles with Brainstorm; you are probably right in that I am talking about maindeck Tendrils vs. Burning Wish. In any case, I have conceded that Wish is indeed stronger than LDV post-Doomsday. Also, I have not looked at compilations of piles, as I am rather comfortable with creating them on the fly, so I cannot comment on those.
Nothing wrong with a lively debate! Again, Burning Wish is one of my favorite cards and I played with it for several years before trying a list without Wishes. I am merely presenting my results and encouraging testing. And of course, an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence, which is why I did not post until I had many events to discuss.
This is the bit I disagree with the most.
BS/Ponder:
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, BW BBB+UUU (6) 8 Storm
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, ToA BBB+UUU (6) 7 Storm
GP:
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, BW BBB+UU (5) 8 Storm
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, ToA BBB+UU (5) 7 Storm
SDT in play + GP:
-> LED, IU, LED, LED, BW BBB (3) 9 Storm
-> LED, IU, LED, LED, ToA BBB (3) 8 Storm
2x GP:
-> LED, IU, LP, DR, ToA BBB (3) 8 Storm
-> LED, IU, LP, LED, BW BBB+1 (4) 9 Storm
These are just variations off the basic pile. For others the list goes on, most double cantrip piles, most piles with IU, most BS piles, etc. There are instances where a maindeck tendrils is either more cost effective (and you could theoretically cast another card) or makes more storm (i.e X2 Top in play) but the majority of piles make more storm for the same mana with wish. The pile document isn't so much to learn piles but is a nice easy reference for theory crafting.
Also you can definitely run a maindeck Tendrils alongside Wish. Our LDV vs Wish debate had skewed that line. With that you could get all the benefits of both. Although I still favor Tendrils out of the MD.
I'd be curious to here how things go without the transform sideboard if you test something more traditional. Cheers.
EDIT: I'm not trying to beat a dead horse and we can certainly agree to disagree but I wanted to add this for others who are looking at both sides and formulating there opinion. In any case, there's life in the DDFT thread.
Last edited by the driver; 07-13-2016 at 08:51 AM.
Good analysis! My rebuttal below:
This is correct, although overly simplifies two categories of combo turns; specifically whether the blue mana for Ideas Unbound comes from LED or from IMS (pile compilations tend to do this?). In my experience paying for IU with IMS tends to be uncommon; I most often pay for IU with LED (either having it before Doomsday or drawing it with a 2nd cantrip).
Redoing the first two set of piles where the blue mana for Ideas Unbound originates from LED, and compressing cantrips:
Single Cantrip + LED
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, BW -> BBB+Cantrip 8 Storm
-> IU, GP, LP, LED, ToA -> BBB+Cantrip 7 Storm
-> IU, Repeal, LP, LED, ToA -> BBB+Cantrip 8 Storm
Here we see that we get the same storm count in what I would argue to be a more common scenario (Cantrip + LED after casting Doomsday). However, this does require a maindeck Repeal, which has decent synergy with the rest of the deck. An added bonus is that the middle pile plays around Abrupt Decay.
I disagree with the claim that a majority of piles are strictly better with Wish.
Top in play
-> IU, LED, GP, LED, BW -> BBB+UU+1 (6) 8 Storm
-> IU, LED, LED, GP, ToA -> BBB+UU+1 (6) 8 Storm
-> IU, LED, LED, Repeal, ToA -> BBB+UU+1 (6) 9 Storm
Top + LED in play
-> IU, LED, GP, LED, BW -> BBB (3) 8 Storm
-> IU, LED, LED, GP, ToA -> BBB (3) 8 Storm
-> IU, LED, LED, Repeal, ToA -> BBB (3) 9 Storm
One of the most common, if not the most common, cases is drawing into the pile with Top and both versions produce the same storm for the same mana cost. Top + LED also creates the cheapest piles, which is key in accelerating the deck. With maindeck Repeal, these piles generate 1 more storm than the versions without maindeck Tendrils.
2x Cantrip
-> LED, IU, LP, LED, BW -> BBB+Cantrip+1 9 Storm
-> LED, IU, LP, DR, ToA -> BBB+Cantrip 8 Storm
In this scenario, the +1 mana could be used to cast disruption or an additional cantrip, which allows us to potentially combo a turn earlier (cantrip into combo is 1 mana cheaper in cases with maindeck Tendrils).
Top + Cantrip
-> LED, IU, LED, LED, BW -> BBB+Cantrip 9 Storm
-> LED, IU, LED, LP, ToA -> BBB+Cantrip 8 Storm
Here the Wish-less version has 1 less storm for the same mana, but is able to play around Abrupt Decay for +1 mana (pile depends on where you predict the opponent will cast it)
Brainstorm
I showed above that the most common piles drawn into with Brainstorm are either strictly more flexible (1 blank card) or trade off one storm for 1 mana if Wish is in hand (which again, allows for the flexibility of casting disruption or finding the missing combo piece with a cantrip). Also, in both cases the version with maindeck Tendrils has a pile that is not susceptible to Abrupt Decay. In more detail (let me know if my piles are incorrect):
Brainstorm + 1 Blank card
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, BW -> BBB+U+R+1 (6) 8 Storm
-> IU, GP, LED, DR, ToA -> BBBB+U (5) 7 Storm
-> IU, SDT,LED, LED, ToA -> BBB+U+2 (6) 8 Storm
Here we see that having a maindeck Tendrils is stictly more flexible when drawing into the pile with Brainstorm and at least 1 Blank card. Also, producing 2 generic mana or 1 black mana is much easier than producing R+1 mana.
Brainstorm + BW
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, LP -> BBB+U+1 (5) 8 Storm
Brainstorm + ToA
-> IU, GP, LED, DR, LP -> BBB+U (4) 7 Storm
Similar to above, the +1 mana could be used to cast disruption or an additional cantrip, which allows us to potentially combo a turn earlier (cantrip into combo is 1 mana cheaper in cases with maindeck Tendrils).
I agree that they could be a useful tool, but they can oversimplify in-game scenarios (for example, condensing the two vastly different cases of where the mana for IU originates from). I think in these discussions we need to be very clear about the details.
The opposite argument can also be had; running a singleton Burning Wish for +1 storm, while inelegant could be worth consideration in an otherwise Wish-less list.
The game 1's in the reports should give a decent idea of how a Wish-less version performs. I would think that post-board should be even more in the favor of the Wish-less version as we gain access to a full 15-card sideboard. For example, we could run 2x Tendrils of Agony, 2x Grip, 4x Abrupt Decay in the board for the Miracles matchup and be highly favored.
I think that we are definitely having a productive debate. However, we have been focusing on a single aspect of the Wish vs. Wish-less lists, specifically how a maindeck Tendrils without Burning Wish changes the requirements on the combo turn after casting Doomsday. I do not think that this is the most important point to be debating as both versions can easily include the other win condition. Below I will attempt to summarize our discussion on this issue; let me know if I am overly biased or oversimplifying anything, and hopefully we can expand our discussion to other points.
Summary of Combo-Turn Requirements of Maindeck Tendrils vs. Burning Wish after casting Doomsday
-Generates one less storm in cases where we pay for Ideas Unbound with IMS and Top + Cantrip cases
-Generates same storm count in cases where we draw into our pile with Top, and 1 more storm with Repeal.
-Requires Repeal to generate same storm count in cases where we pay for Ideas Unbound with LED without Top
-Cheaper by 1 mana, but produces 1 less storm in 2x Cantrip and Brainstorm + Wish/Tendrils cases
-Strictly better with Brainstorm + 1 blank card (either cheaper mana or same storm for same mana)
-Much easier to generate extra storm with 2 tops; will get +2 storm from this pile compared to the Wish version
-Much easier to include discard/bounce/Decay in pile since win condition is 2 mana cheaper
-Cheaper to play around Abrupt Decay since double LED is not required as often
From my experience I have found that the bottleneck in speed comes from the initial mana requirements and not storm count; In my opinion cheaper combo-turns are more important, especially if we want to cast discard on the same turn, as storm count can be easily mitigated by holding artifact mana or cantrips. Perhaps this is due to my decklist choices; specifically running 4x Lotus Petal. Finally, this becomes even less of an issue if we include the Lab Maniac win condition.
Discussion of Speed of LDV vs. Wish
I realize that this is mostly a repost, but I feel like this (more important) topic has been overlooked due to the focus on the pile-requirements on the combo-turn.
Doomsday combo turn numbers are bimodal, depending on whether or not we draw a Dark Ritual. Having a Dark Ritual reduces the IMS required by 2 and is almost always present in any combo turns with 3 or less IMS. Also, avoiding paying for IU with IMS requires finding either a second cantrip or an LED. If we want to combo consistently on turns 1-3, we require finding Doomsday + Dark Ritual + Cantrip + Cantrip/LED or Doomsday + Dark Ritual + Brainstorm (or Wish + LED + LED + Top). LDV is superior to Wish in this respect due to being able to find Dark Ritual, Doomsday, LED, or Probe (effectively increasing each count to 4+Number of LDV), where Wish is only able to find Doomsday (Wish + LED + LED + Top is much more restrictive as they are all 4-ofs compared to 16 cantrips), and constrains Doomsday to a 3-of in the maindeck. Finally LDV is able to find multiple combo pieces if used aggressively.
Against Wasteland decks, we protect ourselves against losing an IMS due to being able to tutor for a missing combo piece without fetching a dual land, which will accelerate the combo turn by 1.
Due to the faster nature of the deck, as well as the increased resilience to Wasteland, a higher land count is not as important and we are able to cut down to land counts found in other storm decks and increase the number of Lotus Petals. We are highly dependent on IMS (we run only 4-5 Ritual effects compared to other storm decks with 8-10), and each Lotus Petal drawn typically accelerates our combo by 1 turn, especially if we are casting Doomsday and/or Ideas Unbound using IMS, while also solving the storm count problem. I have found that a vast majority of turn 1-3 wins use at least 1 Lotus Petal, as well as most wins that include casting a discard spell on the combo turn.
Edit: Forgot to include one of the most common cases; drawing into the pile with Top
Edit 2: Added piles with Repeal to cases with Top that generate +1 storm
Edit 3: Added comments on piles that naturally play around Abrupt Decay
Edit 4: Fixed draw into pile with Top for Burning Wish version
Last edited by DireNTropy; 07-14-2016 at 02:37 PM.
Firstly, you put a lot of effort into your posts and so you deserve to be commended for that. /clap
I'm going to address the post and likely after this I will bow out on this topic. Bottom line up front, in my view, Wish > LDV. Maindeck Tendrils is fine but not necessary. Wish,
- increases pile storm counts
- increases winning card combinations (ins't dead in hand post DD, wish + led, etc)
- access to sideboard answers
- access to alternate win cons
- tutors for doomsday
- can be a pseudo cantrip
This assumes you have LED which isn't always the case.
Assuming you have MD Repeal is a generous assumption. It could be fine but hasn't ever seen play. In the above examples the TOA pile would produce less storm
I don't understand why in both of these examples you present " IU, LED, LED, BW, blank" versus "IU, LED, GP, LED, Wish" which would generate 1 more storm for the same mana. Once again Repeal.
Agree the pile is cheaper. This scenario assumes that the cantrips are exactly X2 ponder, you can't afford the life from Probe, and you don't blanks for BS, etc Totally reasonable assumption. However, the pile still generates less storm. Casting disruption or another cantrip assumes you have those cards (possible) and combo'ing earlier is for less mana is potentially less likely when the pile makes less storm because your opponent is likely at higher life.
yep
In either case it is still less storm which requires you to "make up the difference". Also the following is another pile that raises the count even higher.
-> IU, GP, LED, LED, LED BBB+UR (5) 9 Storm
This also doesn't completely account for the value of having Wish in hand in combination with brainstorm with respect to having Wish + blank. This piles typically cost BBB + U. Using Top or another cantrip to grab BS off the stack only adds U/1. The likelyhood of these piles when running 3-4 Wish increases drastically. LDV post DD is dead in hand. I'm you will assume you've used it but then the combo turn is delayed past turn 2. Wish increases the number of turn 1 and turn 2 win. Important in some matchups.
They are very specific scenarios but useful when ensuring you explore all combinations of winning scenarios.
This is true from a storm count perspective. Not true when you consider the utility Wish offers post Doomsday that LDV doesn't, such as drawing into the pile or in combination with brainstorm. Not to mention other win cons, tutoring for things, etc you get from running multiples.
This is what I'm curious about. Against slower decks it would be helpful but versus something faster maybe not. This deck is so efficient in that almost every card is a combo piece. Diluting the MD with non direct combo pieces (LDV) and doing so more so post board with a deeper sideboard might dilute things. it might not! maybe you board out LDV, I dunno.
I'll admit running more artifact mana can potentially mitigate storm counts. But, in later games they can be a dead draw and in some cases or worse than a land, i.e. vs thalia, vs chalice/thorn, etc. Petal quickly becomes a bad draw, unless you need it to bump storm.
Remember combing early (turn 1 / 2) requires high storm counts. Wish also gives access to alternate win cons (empty) that offer a lot of early combo turns that often get the job done and don't require finding DD. Once we get to turn three then LDV turn 2 vs wish turn 2 is prolly a wash. Wish nets you an extra card (vs LDV) that has a high probability of being combo turn relevant. LDV only nets two combo pieces if you can get them the next turn, otherwise you wait till turn 4 to combo.
I haven't found that I needed petal for early wins. Top + cantrip, Wish + LEDs, brainstorm piles are all common turn 2 kills.
I'm not as worried about wasteland. I regularly play 4 color and have zero issues with 4 MD Wishes.
EDIT: One of the things I omitted. One of the advantages in my view of how the traditional Wish MD is constructed is the fact that essentially every card (you could view it as a maximum number of cards) in the maindeck act as combo pieces. I don't have a list but I am confident that a MD constructed as such would have a higher number of winning combinations of cards plus resources. More opportunities to win then the better in my view. Furthermore most cards no only work towards a combo turn but also can work post DD to create a winning piles. By removing Wish these opportunities go down. That's very critical in my view.
This has been a great discussion and I think it highlights the depth of this awesome deck. Cheers again!
DireNTropy, when you say that not playing Wish speeds the deck up, it seems strange to me. What is normally happening in your fastest games? Lim-Dul's Vault being a two mana play makes me believe at first glance that it isn't frequently contributing to your ability to win before Turn 3, which is right around what I consider to be the average goldfish turn for this deck. I'm sure that Doomsday #4 and 4 Lotus Petals does push things a little closer to Turn 2, but my experience has been that a big part of being able to push Turn 2 wins is Burning Wish in your deck to add +1 Storm to your Doomsday Pile. This argument was a bit stronger before you started mentioning that Repeal allows you to generate the same Storm; I'd like to hear more arguments about how Repeal will be useful outside of Doomsday Piles. In any case, I really don't like including cards like 1-of Burning Wish or Repeal for the sole purpose of increasing Storm because you put those cards in your deck to win earlier, but you also introduce the element of needing to not draw those cards before going off since you're using LED mana to make your fastest piles function. This is also a reason I don't like playing maindeck Tendrils (though I also will concede that I'm not as comfortable as I should be with natural Tendrils piles).
The discussion is very interesting here.
I will not enter into piles considerations, as you already made very good demonstrations with them. However I think that you focus a bit too much on the storm count.
I've played quite a bit with LDV, and the problem is rarely lacking storm, even without repeal (Never played it, but seems like an interesting card against permanent based hate). Maybe I don't notice that much the lack of storm count because I switch to labman piles if necessary, so there may be a bias here.
DireNTropy is right about saying that it speeds up the deck: The T1/T2 kills are most often done when you do not tutor for DD, having 33% more DD in your deck speeds it up, as well as the 4 petals. The possibility of tutoring DD T2 for a T3 win out of 2 basics is something important too, shouldn't be overlooked.
However, the wish version can play very early EtW that do not lead to an immediate victory, but can be counted as fast wins.
To my opinion, the main differences between the 2 versions are:
- the lack of Empty the Warrens. The card is so good against most decks;
- the card disadvantage from LDV. It makes the card weaker against countermagic and top (hiding countermagic);
- the protection vs discard offered by LDV. It happens quite often that you play wish T2 hoping for a T3 kill only to get your wish target discarded;
- the SB space: On one hand, not having to have targets free some space; on the other hand, you do not have access to these cards G1 and have a less good tool to tutor for them. The LDV builds put less constraints on it as you do not have to play mostly rituals (you can play things such as DireNTropy's manplan).
- the possibility to play at instant speed. Playing a LDV as an answer to a hate card or a discard should not be overlooked;
- the life loss. It is not that big of an issue but it will cost you games;
- the wasteland sensitivity from volcs.
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