Discard is not only worse than Chant if you want to IGG. It won't force your opponent to spend resources to fight it, unless they really need to. Chant demands an answer from the opponent, but it also demands you to play white stuffs.
Keep moon-walking.
Yeah, we can only lose on the draw against DS with this decklist.Originally Posted by emidln
A first turn moon effect is GG with only 1 one island and 1 Petal into the deck.
The same is for a first turn Chalice at 1 that cuts 28(!!) cards.
Ok, you can response postside to chalice at 1 thanks to Grudge and Bouncers, but you can't response in manner consistent to moon effect. Do you choose to ignore DS matchup?
I can't see how a deck with:
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
has a stable manabase.
This seems the Harlequin's deck.
We can't start every time with fetch or basic land into initial hand.
Yeah Doomsday requires less mana than IT -> IGG (6 instead of 7).Doomsday speeds up the deck because it requires less mana (and thus fewer lands or rituals) and fewer cards to win the game. 4 is a good number. Infernal Tutor served me by pissing me off when it was making Doomsday cost 1B more or acting in the same capacity as Tarpan as I shuffled it away with Brainstorm. The theoretical use against discard never actually surfaced because Doomsday does the job as well or better. If you were going to use it in the capacity against Discard, you'd need at least 2 Infernal Tutor and another Ill-Gotten Gains between main and sideboard. If the metagame is heavy enough black to warrant that, I'd probably rather just play with Dark Confidants (especially considering the tendency of black decks to sideboard in graveyard hate in games 2 and 3).
Instead I don't see how Doomsday requires generally less cards (Doomsday, ritual, LED, SdT into play) than IGG (Ritual, LED, IT).
Ok, I understand that if your main combo is Doomsday, and you want to win with it, the IT has the same property of a Tarpan into the deck so you can cut it.
The problem, I've found during my test with Doomsday, is that Doomsday has many little weakness that can slow down too much the deck:
- ok, Doomsday don't worry of grave's dependence; but if for example my opponent starts the game with into play LofV, I can't use my only one Petal if I need it during the combo. Sure, I win easily without Petal, I need only to draw another mana source, but I slow down my closure.
- if my opponent plays Needle on SdT. Sure, I win easily without SdT, I need only to draw the cards I need to win with a Brainstorm/Ponder stack, but I slow down my closure.
- if we have into hand the draw4 during the start of combo I need before to put it into the library or I need only to draw the cards I need to win with a Brainstorm/Ponder stack, but I slow down my closure.
- I can't start the combo with 2 LED isntead of IGG version.
- and so on...many weakness that slow down my closure.
Really I'm not sure that the Doomsday version is an improve of the deck.
I haven't still seen T8 to 32+ people's tournaments.
The only 1 advantage I can see of Doomsday's version is that without the main use of IGG, I can cut the white for Orim and playing an UB stable version against chalice/moon with perhaps the green splash for K.Grip and others random stuff like Research/development.
Anyway I continue to prefer my version.
Ah, I don't know if there is anyone testing it, but I'm trying Predict maindeck and Divert in SB against discard decks.
Last edited by jegger; 08-27-2008 at 06:51 AM.
The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel. - Neuromancer
I'm with you jegger. Doomsday has been a nice addition to the deck, making possible things that were before impossible. But I fear a deck too reliant on it, it has many drawbacks.
This is indeed an interesting concept. Even the cheapest Doomsday combo (the IGG+Brainstorm one) requires 3 cards (Ritual+Doomsday+Brainstorm) + 2 cards in hand + UU.
I'd never cut neither SDT nor Doomsday in the list, but I'm still unconvinced by 4 Doomsdays in the deck.
I tested Divert some time ago against discard. They sucked because they couldn't counter Duress, but now that Thoughtseize is in the format a re-testing could be necessary.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Just for you to know, you're still not the controller of the spell. The good thing is that your opponent will still be the one that loses 2 life. The bad thing is that he will be able to choose which card to discard.
I know, but still, a card at his choice+2life+see his hand for U seems a lot better than not countering a Duress
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
@jegger
DDAY is a definite inclusion, the presence of both DDAY and IT is instrumental in both your goldfish speed and your redundancy for Meddling Mage. One of the big problems I have with a lot of people who build this deck is they disregard Meddling Mage and rely on the "I can just remove it" fallacy. You need a second win condition and you need a second kill condition, TES was totally built around that premise and FT should be too.
Doomsday by itself requires less mana than IT->Doomsday. It's the main reason why you should play less ITs and more Doomsdays. Also, in any recent version by either White Ghost, Emidln or even me, there is only 1 IGG. You can'pt win only with Ritual, LED and IT, since it will never generate enough storm and it will still require 2 mana sources. Doomsday requires a single one. That's another fact to take into account, as it leaves more room to casting Chants and discard.
Many of these points do not take into account how the deck is being played. Petal does nothing aside from sneaking into a Doomsday pile. Needle is usually SB material and we have hate for that post SB. There are 2 different draw4s and both of them are usually playable in most situations, unless there is only B from rituals (Contract) or there is not enough B from rituals (Meditate). Not being able to use the one that's left for the pile and not being able to get a pile that works without draw4 and not being able to cast it from hand is a situation that never happened to me. Finally, LED,LED,IT doesn't reach lethal without a 2nd IGG. If there's anything to be discussed on the matter is the reduced number of IGGs, which does reduce our win percentage against discard.
Then, you need to play this version more, unless it simply doesn't fit your most liked play style, which isn't anyone's to blame. Different people like different ways of playing cards and what I wrote here was to defend what I believe is a stronger direction for the decks development.
Everyone should carry that 2nd win condition at least in the Sideboard. If one never sees Mages and Teegs maindeck, it shouldn't be an issue to not use it maindeck.
Keep moon-walking.
This all begs the questions: How many doomsday? How many IT? How many LDV? How many Mystical?
With enough tutor power (3+LDV and 3+Mystical) I think 1 DD is enough. 4 IT kicks ass. LDV is hard to cast, but amazing for setting up turn 3 kills. Mystical=>IT against discard is pretty sweet.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
That is a ton of tutoring power. Has it been slowing the deck down though or does it increase the number of turn 1 Tutor, turn 2 win hands? Either way, I haven't been playing DDay as much as I should. I need to get on it, there are a lot of new lists running around that I really like.
Team Rehab- We Keep Coming Back For More
Team Blitzkrieg- Swagga.
Storm Boards
Which begs another questions, what's replacing those Doomsdays, Lim Dul's Vaults and Infernal Tutors? Acceleration is maxed, so are we cutting those cards for Ponder or Thought Seize?
1 Doomsday is enough if all you're going to do is treat it like an Ill Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns substitute, but Doomsday is really more like a Grim Tutor or Death Wish substitute, i.e a legitimate threat instead of just a middle man that boosts storm. I think Doomsday is at its best when you can just play it instead of having to tutor for it, so you definitely want it in multiples.
I think I look at Doomsday in this deck the same way you look at Infernal Tutor in this deck, it's the go to card for me.
Edit: I don't get running LDV and Mystical together, I'd be cutting those Mysticals for the 4th LDV and Ponders, because the cantrips are such a better turn 1 investment when compared to the tutors.
@BreathWeapon
What do you mean when you say vault sets up a Draw 5? Are you referring to putting a Draw4 on top? I'm just confused, that'd be my guess though.
I meant LDV sets up the next 5 draws.
Thanks for clarifying, I'm definitley going to test it out. My only problem wit it is that it isn't as prety as my japanese mystical tutors :(.
Is setting up your plays better than finding the one card?? Also i didnt see ponder in the list so that is one less cantrip right? I love the 12 cantrips so you can set up the doomsday consistantly.
Emidln how did the mtgsal tourney go?
Round 1 didn't even finish yet. It's going to cut to top 8 by the end of September, about the 22th or something.
Keep moon-walking.
By looking @ the top 5 cards, you get to Mystical Tutor for that one card PLUS set up the other 4x cards below it. When you hit the card you are wanting but the cards below aren't what you are needing/wanting, you can rig it to where you have a shuffle-effect (Ponder/Fetch/Tutor/D-Day/etc.)the draw after that or save a fetch or whatever to get something different on top. There isn't really any difference in setting up your plays and tutoring for one card, as it does virtually the same thing for a bit higher of a price, but with a decent amount of added versatility. This makes it very useable.
D-Day is a 3-4 of in the build because of Discard and Counter Spells in addition to the want of it each game hopefully without having to tutor for it every game. All you need is the capability to produce BBB UUU or BBB BBB with a top on the table for the unprotected kill, and W BBB UUU or W BBB BBB for the protected kill. With the Doomsday kill, it's almost impossible to not hit a lethal ToA if you Doomsday. In fact, if you are at all capable of building a stack, then you should NEVER fizzle with a resolved D-Day. My tutors are mostly used for grabbing Chants. I'm going to try the aspect Brandon has already implemented: Discard. It seems that would be a very viable route to go as it allows you to get rid of a counterspell either by making them counter it or by discard. If they have a counter spell and don't counter it, it allows you to remove it AND to know if you need chant or if multiple chants/Duress/T-Seizes are necessary.
I'm also going to try to succeed in building a CounterTop varient of FT. I think it's ENTIRELY possible, and should be developed to the point of being competetive.
In other news, I'm putting together a CounterTop Scepter-Chant Doomsday-FT list that bluffs thresh...
Pce,
--DC
Not really. 3-4 Doomsday are there so you see them without having to spend mana on tutors or emptying hand for a hellbent Infernal Tutor. Rare have been the games (I think only once) in which I played a 2nd Doomsday after the 1st got countered, because coming up with BBB without LED is already a big enough requirement. Also, with an Infernal Tutor, you have to come up with at least 1BBBB and an empty hand by the time Infernal resolved, with the ability to get BBB or 2U mana after Doomsday resolved without being able to Brainstorm or Ponder into the first cards or use piles that require you to have cards in hand for Brainstorming them onto library. It's so much easier to go off with more Doomsday, it's not even fair.
Keep moon-walking.
At my home Petal is necessary if you want to win via draw4 with 6 mana instead of 7. I presume this problem isn't so irrilevant or sneaky if you want a closure that requires less mana than classic IT-> IGG version.
Many decks play Trinket Mage and play also 1x Needle maindeck (Dreadstill, Faerie Stompy), so this statement is wrong.
Perhaps the concept ,of what I wrote in that paragraph, is misconceived.
I didn't write that DDay version can't exit from many situations (double LED in hand, Petal rfg, Needle on SdT, 8 or less lifes against burn and no Orim in hand before combo and so on...), I wrote that DDay goes under a bigger number of cards/situations and this provokes the entire slow down of the deck.
If my opponent plays a very common SB card like Needle on SdT, I must to spend time to search a solution for it (Ok, I can win via Brainstorm, but sincerely how many times do you use SdT in comparison to Brainstorm?), well... I spend time to search a solution for it, meanwhile my opponent has the time to search and play CB or his disruption package,...
My fault, I was speaking of old DDay versions that use only one draw4.
Perhaps you can answer to this I wrote above:
You can go to http://www.deckcheck.net/ and then you can write here how many DDay versions do a T8. Emidln discovers DDay in May, but how many T8 with it?
Anyway, perhaps I wrong and this deck is better of classic version and it simply doesn't fit my most liked play style.
On what assumption you say "DDAY is a definite inclusion" ? We aren't speaking of Brainstorm or Dark Ritual.
I don't understand how DDay solves alone the Mage's problem. Perhaps Helm + Grapeshot solve Mage’s problem, not DDay, like in my deck is Pact or Massacre to solve this problem.
In this case DDay is less versatile. You can use IT to search the second Orim or C.Ritual. I compare DDay more to IGG than IT.
Anyway I’ll continue to test also the Dday version
The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel. - Neuromancer
More than anything else, I'm going to miss the idea of MT=>Chant. LDV is awesome, don't get me wrong, but if you're going to use it as a setup, you're going off turn 3 at the earliest.
Back to my one problem with DDay: you must have a cantrip available. In the most recent list I saw posted, only 8 cantrip effects are run, 4 of which are better used (generally) as setup. Therfore, I think DDay might acually be a more difficult enabler than IT.
I think I am sold on the idea of LDV over mystical, but the deck needs more cantrips for DDay to be useful! I think 12 with ponders is the absolute minimum for getting a consistant draw and being able to effectively use the cantrips to dig for protection and setup your hand.
EDIT:
16 Accell
+15 Land
+12 cantrips
=43
+8 protection (1 wipe/grip, 3 chant, 4 discard)
=57
+12 tutor/bomb (DDay, IT, LDV)
+5 one-ofs (tendrils, 2x draw4, IGG, ETW)
=69
-60
=9 cards to cut.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
Trust me, LDV for Orim's Chant is no where near as good as LDV for Vexing Shusher, prepare to watch control players shit their pants at EOT LDV. I don't have a problem with 4 Brainstorm and 4 Sensei's Divining Top, the untap and win piles with Doomsday are pretty solid in and of themselves, bit I guess the Cabal Ritual and Lotus Petal count can be tweaked for Ponders (I just don't care for Ponder in here to be honest, it just feels like unnecessary filler)
@Jegger, if you have to tutor for an answer to Meddling Mage, you're not building your deck correctly. Doomsday answers Meddling Mage because Meddling Mage on Infernal Tutor doesn't shut you down and don't have to tutor for an answer over casting another threat.
Edit: Am I missing something with the 2 Draws? Infernal Contract straight up sucks with LDV, so is there a Doomsday stack that runs off multiple Draw 4s and Doomsday recursion I'm not seeing here?
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