The 4th Chant and Igg number 3 over bounce spells and the fourth Ponder. How did that work out for you?
And grats on the finish!
EDIT- I see that you didn't run Grims, due to price contraints, I'm assuming. Anyway, did the absence of the extra tutors hurt you at all?
Depending on your hand and whether they broke a fetch, it's entirely possible to win without casting Ill-Gotten Gains. By casting all the cards in your hand + playing a land per turn, it's possible for you to play 7 spells (7 cards in hand at the beginning of the turn + draw per turn) + force of will + tendrils copy itself. The Force of Will + Fetch would put them at 18. This would be ideal.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
From the perspective of the other side of the table, he was able cast waaaay more Chant/Abeyance effects than any 'black' deck ever should....they slowed me down enough to let him go off before me in 2 games & stopped me from evoking an Awfulsnout for a key combo piece in one game.
TL,DR: if you think Saito is ok, check your moral compass. It may be broken. - Spikey Mikey, amen brother
WE know what the price of progress is (often 8-10 life). - Cait Sith
A casual stasis deck? You must not really like your friends. Do you play it before or after you pull the wings off of flys and microwave the neighbor's cat? - EwokSlayer
The 4th chant was amazing I don't think I lost a game that I saw a chant. As for IGG #3 it was a little overkill and got sided out quite a few times. As for not running Grims I haven't gotten them yet... But honestly I never missed them. I'd probably cut the 3rd IGG for either a 4th ponder, or maybe a singleton draw 4. As for bounce the 1 Wipe Away in the main was plenty since there aren't many decks that run main deck Leyline in legacy and there really aren't that many card s that require bounce. Plus I can grab it with Mystical Tutor. And I devoted 4 Sideboard slots to bounce so Game 2 and 3 where I'd actually see Leyline I was set.
I've dabbled in combo every once in a while, and I like how this deck is built. I've been playtesting and owning with it in our play group.
However, I have a few questions to ask about the SB (my weakest point as a Magic player)... Here's JanValentine00's SB from the Hadley list:
3 Dark Confidant
3 Pyroblast
3 Abeyance
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Sudden Death
What are the boarding plans for each MU? And what do you take out? It seems that the deck is so tight and streamlined in the MD, so I'm having trouble with that. Thanks.
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
This deck has definitely caught my interest in IGG builds again. I was considering 1 Meditate as part of the 4draw for the deck.
It's only one blue, and this deck is capable of generating blue consistently. The skip turn is trivial if you plan to go off confidently during the turn, as is the case of most 4draws when you spin in for the kill.
Just a thought to consider.
How is the matchup against goblins? I think the issue is the lifeloss, making SW less recyclable, but this deck definitely has a much more resilient and wider stretch for answers than the traditional IGG builds. Good job!
You usually take out any draw spells sacrificing speed for disruption. At least that's how I generally board when playing combo. But it really depends on the deck. In many cases removing mana acceleration is another option, as well. I also tend to cut four of's down to three of's, down the line, instead of removing a playset of cards all together. But like I said, it really depends on the deck.
Disregard what I quoted. Don't ever consider boarding out Brainstorm or Ponders 1-3. If you are thinking about it, remind yourself that you don't suck at magic and pick something else. Ill-Gotten Gains and Tendrils of Agony are usually good choices since if you are fighting through hate, you'll gain requisite storm naturally. Swapping out bounce as necessary as well as Orim's Chants and Street Wraiths is pretty common. If you are playing ETW or a 15th land, those are considerations. Never, under any circumstances, board out Dark Ritual or Cabal Ritual sparing a transformational sideboard into Scaled Wurm aggro or something (and then, keep them in because they cast your 7/6 faster). LED is a potential for a cut against decks known to play both Chalice and Leyline, although I usually consider this a last resort and tend to leave in at least 2. Grim Tutors and Draw4s are potential cuts depdending on the matchup.
I dislike Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast in the sideboard because it causes you to bring too much in and lose focus. This is worse than not sideboarding at all and is a common mistake for people unfamiliar with their decks.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I would never cut Brainstorm or Ponder. I'd maybe cut one of each of mana acceleration making each a 3-of instead of 4. I agree that Brainstorm should stay a 4-of as well as Ponder. I do think that cutting Cabal ritual and dark ritual down to three shouldn't hurt much, since diluting the deck isn't as bad as neutering it all together.
Cutting acceleration in a deck like Fetchland Tendrils isn't the same as doing so in TES or Belcher. You can get by with it in TES because TES plays approximately a million acceleration cards, but Fetchland Tendrils has exactly sixteen -- four of which (Lotus Petal) suck pretty bad when trying to generate enough mana to cast Tendrils of Agony, Infernal Tutor, or Ill-Gotten Gains after a war over Orim's Chant effects. Your Dark Rituals and Cabal Rituals are what will allow you to actually win the game in the mana constricted scenarios after a Chant war or cantrip chaining. They allow you to generate mana or storm with Infernal Tutor or Ill-Gotten Gains. Finally, their instant speed allows you to play through Tormod's Crypt as necessary, something that is essential to successfully piloting the deck in a tournament.
Last edited by emidln; 03-20-2008 at 04:34 PM. Reason: trying to play nice with others
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Excuse me for my ignorance. I was only referring to Nourishing Lich since it's really the only combo deck I play. I also have played SI to a certain extent and cutting rituals (one of each) -3(cabal/dark/culling) and -1 LED for +4 Naturalize against Chalice is another example. I'm not familiar with fetchland tendrils since I have no experience playing the deck.
So, without using Grim Tutors in place of Intuition, what seperates this deck from Iggy Pop? I've seen Iggy Pop lists with 4 Chants main/side before, and I've seen Iggy Pop lists tinkering w/ Street Wraith too. The main thing that seperated Iggy Pop with this deck was Grim Tutor and Intuition.
SI: 24-28 ritual effects (4 Moxen, 4 Petal, 4 Rit, 4 Crit, 4 Culling, 4 LED, 0-4 SSG)
TES: 24-27 ritual effects (4 Moxen, 4 Petal, 4 Rit, 4 SSG, 4 Rite, 4 LED, 0-3 CRit)
Fetchland Tendrils: 16 ritual effects (4 Petal, 4 Rit, 4 CRit, 4 LED)
About the difference:
Fetchland Tendrils plays 0 Intuition, 0 Leyline of the Void, 2-4 Ponder, 4 Street Wraith, 2 Ill-Gotten Gains, 2 Tendrils of Agony, 3-4 Orim's Chant, 14 lands, 0-2 Draw4, 0-2 Grim Tutor
Iggy Pop (Mike's build from Worlds or Smmenen's article) plays 3-4 Intuition, 4 Leyline of the Void, 4 Ill-Gotten Gains, 2-4 Tendrils of Agony, 0 Ponder, 0 Street Wraith, 1 Orim's Chant, 16 lands
These differences may seem minor, but they greatly affect the playstyle of the deck. There has been testing done towards fewer Intuition, Street Wraith, Orim's Chant, and even decreased copies of IGG and Tendrils in Iggy Pop, but they were never brought together. This deck originated as an Iggy Pop variant with 4 Grim Tutor replacing all but 1 Intuition and a myriad of basics and bounce spells maindeck, but it evolved as heavy testing and newer cards pushed back the old technology. Due to evolution, Fetchland Tendrils is a highly aggressive deck with a low mana curve focused on playing a card quality game very similar to the way Threshold sculpts its perfect hand. This optimization and trend towards consistency brings a stark contrast when compared to mulling for Leylines and casting the perennial 4 for 1 (Intuition) against control.
New sideboarding techniques with a focus on proper playtesting and sound theory, a more streamlined card quality engine, and the concept of speed with protection all end in Iggy Pop largely evolving into Fetchland Tendrils independent of the originator of the deck. Through all of this the deck gained an ability to ignore graveyard hate, easily play through countermagic, recover from previously crippling permanents, and even managed to get faster in the goldfish against aggro decks. I suppose that if you look at the numbers, the Meandeck list plays 13-14 different cards (excluding the manabase) than the Fetchland Tendrils lists so you can make of that what you will.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
The discussion is on neither Nourishing Lich nor SI, which although combo decks, are different combo decks. You admit not having played this, why are you offering sideboard advice on something you have no experience with? That seems irresponsible. Can someone who has played the deck, especially to success, offer opinions on what goes out to bring what in, match by match? I haven't played the deck either but I have played against it, and the Time Walk/protected comboing effect of leventy billion Chant effects was a major factor in my loss to the deck.
TL,DR: if you think Saito is ok, check your moral compass. It may be broken. - Spikey Mikey, amen brother
WE know what the price of progress is (often 8-10 life). - Cait Sith
A casual stasis deck? You must not really like your friends. Do you play it before or after you pull the wings off of flys and microwave the neighbor's cat? - EwokSlayer
Yep, that was what I wanted as well...
BTW, emidln, you mentioned in the Combo vs Countertop thread about a variation of Fetchland Tendrils with Tropical Island and Bayou, and Trygon Predator and Krosan Grip. What did they replace? Is it alright if you post that list? Thanks, I'm doing as much homework as I can on this before I go get the pieces...
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
My team was planning on investing into this deck, and this is the build we were planning on making:
lands//14
1 badlands
1 underground sea
1 tundra
1 swamp
1 island
1 scrubland
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
creatures//4
4 street wraith
spells//42
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
1 wipe away
3 orim's chant
2 ill-gotten gains
2 tendrils of aaggony
4 brainstorm
4 mystical tutor
4 infernal tutor
4 lion's eye diamond
4 lotus petal
3 ponder
1 empty the warrens
2 grim tutor
sideboard- Unknown for now
This list is very standard from what I have seen, but I do have some good questions.
1. If we can get grim tutors, then should we run them?
2. what should a general sideboard look like if we expect control and agro?
3. How good is street wraith really?
- I know he negates mystical tutor making it awesome, but sometimes he makes mulligans very tricky, as he can draw you into anything, and if he doesn't draw what you wanted you can get screwed...
- Is he still worth the risk (possible mulligans because he is in op hand).
My list is almost the same as yours, minus Badlands and Grim Tutors, plus Island and Impulse. I've been testing a lot the Suicide Black (with 3 specters, 11 discards and 4 shades) match up (10x12 pre-sb, so far) and I miss an effect to make up for the small amount of IGGs. Draw4 may fill those slots nicely, but I think it would put me in a very fragile situation, since a Nantuko Shade can create a very quick clock.
Still, there's no one to playtest Landstill and Thresh with me, since all my friends are way lazy to gather up for some real playing. I can't say anything about Grim Tutor on these matches.
It does speed up Mystical Tutor effects by 1 turn, which is crucial for speed. It does not make deciding for mulligan harder. The sensation of it being a completely unknown card goes away with a small bit of goldfishing, when you notice it as a tool. Also, he makes threshold easier to achieve.
EDIT: I didn't notice the lack of Volcanic Island and the extra Flooded Strand... my mana base is the same as shown below by emidln.
Last edited by Jaiminho; 03-21-2008 at 01:14 AM.
Keep moon-walking.
Badlands is worse than Volcanic Island. Cut Badlands for Volcanic Island or cut Flooded Strand for Volcanic Island. I was perfectly fine running this config while playing maindeck ETW, but the only other red card that I would personally consider playing right now is Pyroclasm.
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
With your list, a general sideboard would be the following:
1 Orim's Chant
1 Abeyance
1 Extirpate
4 Serenity
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rushing River
1 Rebuild
4 Dark Confidant
Depending on your metagame, Pyroclasm and Sudden Death immediately become considerations. I keep these cards in a binder for me to make use of in my 75:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Street Wraith
4 Impulse
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cruel Bargain
3 Infernal Contract
3 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Intuition
2 Meditate
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Grim Tutor
1 Burning Wish
4 Empty the Warrens
2 Brain Freeze
4 Orim's Chant
3 Abeyance
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Bound//Determined
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Extirpate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Disrupt
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Misdirection
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Trinket Mage
4 Serenity
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Trygon Predator
3 Wipe Away
3 Krosan Grip
2 Sudden Death
4 Isochron Scepter
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
3 Rushing River
3 Echoing Truth
3 Rebuild
3 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Damnation
1 Wash Out
3 Pyroclasm
3 Massacre
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pithing Needle
These are basically the only cards you are ever likely to see in my 75. Some of them are outdated tech and others are cards that I simply thought I could possibly use at some point down the line (Wash Out hasn't been in my list in awhile, but I could see a meta where I might potentially want it). You'll notice parts of transformational sideboards if you pay attention as well as things that I play randomly (Scepters) for their surprise value into free wins in game 2. This might help to illustrate to some just how open I think the Fetchland Tendrils archetype is.
Last edited by emidln; 03-21-2008 at 01:24 AM.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Thresh:
-1 Empty the Warrens
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-3 Ponder
-1 Wipe Away
-4 Street Wraith
+3 Dark Confidant
+3 Abeyance
+3 Pyroblast
+1 Echoing Truth
Goblins:
-1 Ill Gotten Gains
-1 Empty the Warrens
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Hurkyl's Recall
Other Storm Combo:
-1 Empty the Warrens
-3 Ponder
+3 Abeyance
+1 Echoing Truth
Loam:
-1 Empty the Warrens
-1 Ill Gotten Gains
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Chain of Vapor
Dragonstompy:
-1 Tendrils of Agony
-1 Ill Gotten Gains
-2 Orim's Chant
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Rebuild
+1 Hurkyl's Recall
+1 Empty the Warrens
White Stax:
-1 Empty the Warrens
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-1 Street Wraith
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Rebuild
+1 Hurkyl's Recall
Other U based Control:
-4 Street Wraith
-1 Brainstorm
-1 Ill Gotten Gains
+3 Pyroblast
+3 Abeyance
Otherwise use your judgement, If you expect leyline board in more bounce, Extirpate... abeyances, etc. etc.
Wow, I'm glad we brought this up...
This is wrong, even for your build. Boarding out uncounterable bounce (even if they don't have CB, it bounces Goyfs and Land) for Echoing Truth is not right.Thresh:
-1 Empty the Warrens
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-3 Ponder
-1 Wipe Away
-4 Street Wraith
+3 Dark Confidant
+3 Abeyance
+3 Pyroblast
+1 Echoing Truth
Here, Ponder should be left in and instead -1 Tendrils, -1 Wipe Away, -1 IGG.Other Storm Combo:
-1 Empty the Warrens
-3 Ponder
+3 Abeyance
+1 Echoing Truth
-3 Street Wraith +3 Dark Confidant in addition to this.White Stax:
-1 Empty the Warrens
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-1 Street Wraith
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Rebuild
+1 Hurkyl's Recall
Loam actually has two major hate strategies. The first is discard + extirpate. This is best attacked through Dark Confidants and leaving IGG in. Here you want to board down to 1 Chant, since chant is only useful in the unlikely event that they don't tap out on an early turn and you need to avoid Extirpate. The second strategy involves Leyline of the Void, Chalice of the Void, and usually Engineered Explosives or Thorn of Amethyst. Against this strategy, you'll want Dark Confidants and H.Recall/Rebuild in as well, although you'll really wish you were playing Serenity and/or Rushing River under this scenario.Loam:
-1 Empty the Warrens
-1 Ill Gotten Gains
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Chain of Vapor
If you want to play a build with Pyroblast, I would highly recommend finding room for Rushing River at the very least, although given that Serenity is such a house against Dragon Stompy, Stax, and Loam, I'd want those as well. If you aren't playing Pyroblasts, Extirpate (as a 1-2 of) is a good option to help shore up the blue matchups as well as being randomly useful against Loam and the combo mirror as well.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
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