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Thread: A Question About Solitaire Enchantress: The RWG version

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    A Question About Solitaire Enchantress: The RWG version

    I'm not quite sure what the matchups for Zach Tartell's enchantress list looks like. I was hoping in starting this thread, so that I can get matchup results as well as percentages against the most prevalent Legacy decks for Zach's enchantress list. I would also like to discuss what type of decks the standard enchantress deck performs against whether negative or positive. In other words, I would like to know and get a general idea on how well RGW enchantress does against combo, combo control, control aggro, aggro, and control.

    I was hoping to start this thread just to get a bit educated about the Enchantress archetype. Hopefully we can start a fruitful discussion and open up avenues of thought which have not yet been explored.

    EDIT: The main reason I'm looking for info on Solitaire is to compare and analyze the info between Zach's standard Enchantress list and my Enchantress Bloom combo creation. I recently just skimmed through the Enchantress thread that Zach started and I noticed some slight differences on some of the matchups for each deck. The main difference from my combo Enchantress build and Zach's is that Enchantress Bloom has favorable matchups versus Affinity and Threshold (only somewhat against Thresh) but the rest of the results were the same oddly enough. I also have a really good matchup versus Deadguy Ale, as well, which seems relevant enough. I hope this clarifies the reason for me posting this thread. Now you know my true intentions. Hopefully we can get a discussion going and I will definitely post my latest version of Enchantress Bloom as soon as I'm able to start attending tournaments with the deck. I hope this clarifies the intentions of this thread. Let the discussion commence, if you will.
    Last edited by Cavius The Great; 11-28-2007 at 02:09 PM.

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    Re: A Question About Solitaire Enchantress: The RWG version

    I played RWG for quite some time, but my list differs a bit from his, so take this with a grain of salt. I did quite well with the deck for a bit, but it was during the summer, and some information may be outdated.

    Goblins: For monoR, it's very favorable matchup. You have just about every tools that can beat them, including Elephant Grass, Solitary Confinement, Moat, and Ghostly Prison. Only bad thing about this matchup is that you have to win with Words of War because of sharpshooter, and that's not even very relevant.

    for RW, RG, it get bit harder, but still a good matchup. just remember not to be too agressible with your Gloves and you will be fine. about 60/40 or higher, in my opinion. For other versions, I have no tourney/test data.

    Thresh: depends on your build, but about even or worse if your deck is gear to beat aggro and storm combo. UGr is easier to deal with than UG or UGw. I had fortune of playing Lam Phan with his UG build before it made splash in the GenCon, in a mox tourney final, and lost in 3 with pretty lucky game 2 win. If you choose right build, though, I believe you can get better matchup.

    Landstill: The versions that I faced did not pack much mass enchantment destruction, so I may be incorrect, but I had very good matchup with landstill. The only loss was due to me being a retard and drawing an extra card when I had choke and 2 enchantress effect on the board.

    Affinity: I found it to be slightly favorable, but the list I faced was a standard RBU with not much tweak. Just slow them down until you find confinement. I have to note that I had 3(2 seals + 1 aura) Disenchant effect in MD.

    Burn, other Red based Aggro: Favorable, although burn can race you.

    Belcher: it all comes down to your opponent's ability. if they keep ETW hand, than you win. otherwise, expect a hard battle. Unfavorable.

    TES/IGGY: You can pack hate for it, but the chances are that you will not manage the matchup. perhapse the worst matchup for the deck?


    Well, I have not played real magic for 4 month, let alone Enchantress, so take with grain of salt.
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    Re: A Question About Solitaire Enchantress: The RWG version

    I agree with CP with everything he said except Burn which is quite unfavorable IMO.

    Wanted to cover some more important matchups:

    Breakfast: It's a good one, unless they have a turn 2 combo. Elephant grass/ground seals are crucial. Oblivion ring on a combo critter/ vial can be good.

    Ichorid: It's unwinnable if they combo on turn 1 or 2. If they combo on turn 3 or more becomes a very favorable matchups. Elephant Grass, Ground seals, Confinament, Moat FTW. Post side it becomes harder if they side tranquillity effects, otherwise is almost the same thing as g1.

    43Lands: a bye unless they have burning wishes or open 2-3 ports hands. Ground seal seals the deal.

    Black based Aggro-Control: Unfavorable. Manabase is quite important for the deck. LD is more crucial than discard her. Sinkhole is ofter a 2 for 1 with Utopia Sprawl. Elephant Grass shines, but it's hard to assemble a lot of mana and confidant still draws cards.. This is IMO your worst matchup after storm combo.

    Goyf Sligh: Favorable. They have burn, but not a lot of good beaters. A single oblivion ring on a goyf or an elephant grass usually buys enough time to hide under a confinament.

    Solidarity: We can't win G1. G2 and 3 are winnable if you pack a huge amount of Blue Hate, like 3 Choke + 3 City of Solitude, otherwise it's just a little better than G1.
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    Re: A Question About Solitaire Enchantress: The RWG version

    I wil make a thoughtful post about this tomorrow evening. Or later tonight, fi writing finals papers is more boring than orrigionally projected. Let me just get this straight, though - are you trying to compare the build of Enchantress that NoVa started to your Enchantress Bloom? Coule you post a list of that? (secondly, has anyone other than you ever played it? Not that I'm immune to that either, I'm just curious.)
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    Re: A Question About Solitaire Enchantress: The RWG version

    Quote Originally Posted by lonelybaritone View Post
    I wil make a thoughtful post about this tomorrow evening. Or later tonight, fi writing finals papers is more boring than orrigionally projected. Let me just get this straight, though - are you trying to compare the build of Enchantress that NoVa started to your Enchantress Bloom? Coule you post a list of that? (secondly, has anyone other than you ever played it? Not that I'm immune to that either, I'm just curious.)
    I'm pretty much the only person that's ever played the deck in any tournaments. I made 67th place in the first TML but could of done better with the latest list (I got screwed by 43 Lands piloted by Chris Piath becuase I ran Llanowar Wastes instead of more basics and fetches). I've also played the deck in a roughly 30 man tournament around a year ago and made Top 8 losing my Top4 spot after losing to 3c Tog.

    The decklist I ran back then was horrible but it still did well oddly enough. I used to run a Living Wish board for utility and maga, traitor to mortals as an alternate win condition, which was cute, but in the end I ditched the wishboard after by buddy Eric Robinson gave me some advice on the deck.

    Here's a link to the old list.

    http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=21004

    Now here's the most optimal version of the deck. This list I'm providing is leagues better. I hope you enjoy it.

    Enchantress Bloom 2k7.DEC

    Spells:38
    4 Argothian Enchantress
    4 Enchantress's Presence
    2 Freyalise's Charm
    2 Whip Silk
    3 Cadaverous Bloom
    3 Squandered Resources
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Consume Spirit
    3 Thoughtseize
    3 Pact of Negation
    4 Exploration
    4 Wild Growth
    4 Elephant Grass

    Lands:22
    4 Bayou
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Wooded Foothills
    7 Forest
    5 Swamp
    2 Overgrown Tomb

    Sideboard:15
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Slaughter Pact
    2 Naturalize
    3 Pernicious Deed
    4 Weakness

    Thoughtseize lets me grab Meddling Mage if I wish, Pact of Negation lets me resolve Cavaderous Bloom for the win, I finally am running Elephant Grass which should of been in the first list. I'm also running a more solid SB with stuff like Weakness versus Lackeys, Confidants etc., Pernicious Deed which helps against Affinity and weenie builds and 4 Leylines for GY hate, 2 Slaughter Pact for Meddling Mages, True Believers and other annoying creatures. I hope that clarifies the transition between the two decks. Sorry for not including it earlier.

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    Re: A Question About Solitaire Enchantress: The RWG version

    Jesse(Mad Zur) used a similiar list a couple years back.

    Also, I've been getting favorable Threshold percentages lately with a fairly standard list(plus one MD Choke instead of City of Solitude), I don't know about you guys.
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    Re: A Question About Solitaire Enchantress: The RWG version

    Quote Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges View Post
    Jesse(Mad Zur) used a similiar list a couple years back.

    Also, I've been getting favorable Threshold percentages lately with a fairly standard list(plus one MD Choke instead of City of Solitude), I don't know about you guys.
    I designed this deck in 2001, but I don't know how long Jesse's been playing it. So that's about 6 almost 7 years since I designed it. The key cards in my deck however are unorthodox choices that nobody runs such as Whip Silk and Freyalise's Charm. These two cards allow me to effectively draw my entire library without fizzling.

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    Re: A Question About Solitaire Enchantress: The RWG version

    Considering that Presence and Tendrils weren't around in 2001, color me skeptical.
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    Re: A Question About Solitaire Enchantress: The RWG version

    Quote Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges View Post
    Considering that Presence and Tendrils weren't around in 2001, color me skeptical.
    It was such a long time ago that I don't remember the exact year. Then it may have been 2003 since that was the set Consume Spirit was printed in. Sorry about the inaccurate information, I just making a rough estimate off the top of my head. It's obviously been so long.

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    Re: A Question About Solitaire Enchantress: The RWG version

    2003 sounds about right. That was the same time Jesse used his list, and about the same time I developed Solitaire.

    My feel for the differences were that that version did better vs combo because of your access to discard and your faster clock, but didn't do as well vs anything running disruption because you're sacrificing consistency and redundancy for speed.
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    Re: A Question About Solitaire Enchantress: The RWG version

    Quote Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
    2003 sounds about right. That was the same time Jesse used his list, and about the same time I developed Solitaire.
    I'm pretty sure he didn't use Whip Silk and Freyalise's Charm. Those are my trademark innovations.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
    My feel for the differences were that that version did better vs combo because of your access to discard and your faster clock, but didn't do as well vs anything running disruption because you're sacrificing consistency and redundancy for speed.
    I'm not sure about that. I have really positive matchups versus discard and deadguy ale. With so many enchantress effects, it's hard for discard to keep up with the sheer card advantage the deck provides. I have actually beaten Deadguy Ale in a tournament and topdecked something delicious and pulled a win out of my ass. I'm pretty sure when you topdeck an enchantment with multiple enchantress effects in play, you're actually able to win. I'm living proof of that.

    One of the best parts about Enchantress Bloom though, is that it can race Affinity for the win, which in itself seems impossible but in actuality it's actually acheivable. I'm living proof of that as well. Threshold also seems to be a cake walk between the 3 Thoughtseize and 3 Pact of Negation, I have positive matchups against it as well.

    In all actuality, Combo and Solidarity seems to be the most difficult matchups for my deck. TES, Solidarity and Iggy Pop can all combo out faster with either disruption or counterbackup. My SB is pretty much aimed at combating aggro control and general aggro, but if I wish, I could pretty much run things in my board to combat any specific metagame. Duress, Unmask and that additional Thoughtseize are some good examples.

    I really don't want to give up on this deck though, I believe it has alot of potential. I think that if tweaked and played properly I could very well be posting a primer in "The Established Decks Forum". Let me know what you guy's are thinking, I look very forward to getting all the insight that I can on the Enchantress archetype.

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    Re: A Question About Solitaire Enchantress: The RWG version

    You might be the originator of Whip Silk, but the "bouncing enchantment + Enchantress" thing has been around way before then.

    At least as far back as 1999, Enchantress was being combined with Flickering Ward for much the same purpose. And of course, other Auratog decks used Rancor for the same purpose as far back as whenever Urza's Legacy came out.
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    Re: A Question About Solitaire Enchantress: The RWG version

    Quote Originally Posted by MattH View Post
    And of course, other Auratog decks used Rancor for the same purpose as far back as whenever Urza's Legacy came out.
    I think I may have known about Enchantress/Rancor/Auratog before I even played Magic.

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    Re: A Question About Solitaire Enchantress: The RWG version

    Quote Originally Posted by MattH View Post
    You might be the originator of Whip Silk, but the "bouncing enchantment + Enchantress" thing has been around way before then.

    At least as far back as 1999, Enchantress was being combined with Flickering Ward for much the same purpose. And of course, other Auratog decks used Rancor for the same purpose as far back as whenever Urza's Legacy came out.
    Yeah, but I think I was one of the first people to realize the synergy between green bounce spells and Cadaverous Bloom.

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    Re: A Question About Solitaire Enchantress: The RWG version

    Um...why is that particularly more synergistic than Enchantresses + Bloom?

    I mean, ok, you thought of it on your own. Unless you apply it it doesn't really do anyone any good. The Hatfields posted their list on here years ago, so the time to lay claim to the innovation has kind of come and gone.
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    Re: A Question About Solitaire Enchantress: The RWG version

    Quote Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges View Post
    Um...why is that particularly more synergistic than Enchantresses + Bloom?

    I mean, ok, you thought of it on your own. Unless you apply it it doesn't really do anyone any good. The Hatfields posted their list on here years ago, so the time to lay claim to the innovation has kind of come and gone.
    I posted my list on TMD years ago as well. Just look at the link that Lonelybaritone has in his Enchantress thread in the Established decks forum. If you read the date on that thread at TMD, it dates back to more than a year ago. I posted my deck on TMD even a year before then, but it didn't get much attention and drifted into the archives.

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    Re: A Question About Solitaire Enchantress: The RWG version

    Oh my God. I remember you now.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaviusTheGreat Circa2006
    Why on earth can't you just give me props and say I built a successful deck?
    I see you've added Elephant Grass. Which is good. I still find your enchantment count highly questionable. What's your average turn for the kill?
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    Re: A Question About Solitaire Enchantress: The RWG version

    Quote Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges View Post
    Oh my God. I remember you now.



    I see you've added Elephant Grass. Which is good. I still find your enchantment count highly questionable. What's your average turn for the kill?
    4th turn. I've raced Affinity in the first TML Open and pulled a 3rd turn kill out my ass but that rarely happens. 5th-6th turn if I get a bad draw. My enchantment count is low but the "bouncy" ones make up for it.

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    Re: A Question About Solitaire Enchantress: The RWG version

    The thing I don't like about dropping white, besides losing Sanctum, Grove and Confinement(and Moat), is that you lose Replenish, which is such an insane topdeck in so many situations. There's no other card that does what it does, and now that it's legal again, it should really be taken advantage of.
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    Re: A Question About Solitaire Enchantress: The RWG version

    Quote Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges View Post
    The thing I don't like about dropping white, besides losing Sanctum, Grove and Confinement(and Moat), is that you lose Replenish, which is such an insane topdeck in so many situations. There's no other card that does what it does, and now that it's legal again, it should really be taken advantage of.
    Are you posting in the right thread?? That seems kind of random and off topic. And yes, in actuality I've toyed around with white. I have a 3-color Enchantress Bloom thread at Brainburst.com which dates back to the beginning of time.

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