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Thread: [Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

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    [Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

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    What's going on over the pond? Doug takes a look at several large-attendance Legacy events in Europe and beyond, highlighting new decks like Doran Aggro and interesting twists on old ones like Faerie Stompy. Join him as he scours results for tech and discusses its adaptability in the American metagame. Then, pull it all together with metagame analysis that spans continents!
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    Re: [Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

    Vision Charm was my supah sekit Dreadnaught tech. Thanks for telling everyone jerkface :P
    info.ninja

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    Re: [Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

    Dreadnought would be seen so much more if it weren't for Goyf, I 8> Vision Charm.
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    Re: [Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

    I don't get it. Vision Charm is a terrible card.
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    Re: [Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

    Did you miss where Vision Charm can phase out Dreadnought in response to Swords to Plowshares, or are you merely unimpressed? If it's the former, now you know. If it's the latter, BLASPHEMY.

    Seriously, I've wanted to run Avoid Fate for quite some time in Threshold because it seems like your creatures are finally valuable enough on the whole to want to protect. Vision Charm is Avoid Fate + Stifle for Dreadnoughts.

    And on the side note, it acts as disruption against High Tides!
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    Re: [Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

    Quote Originally Posted by Anusien View Post
    Did you miss where Vision Charm can phase out Dreadnought in response to Swords to Plowshares, or are you merely unimpressed? If it's the former, now you know. If it's the latter, BLASPHEMY.

    Seriously, I've wanted to run Avoid Fate for quite some time in Threshold because it seems like your creatures are finally valuable enough on the whole to want to protect. Vision Charm is Avoid Fate + Stifle for Dreadnoughts.

    And on the side note, it acts as disruption against High Tides!
    Yeah, it also nabs Mirage tutors and can dump 5 cards in your graveyard for 1 mana.

    Given all that though its still kinda crappy because if you dont have a Dreadnought then Vision Charm is, well, Vision Charm. The nice thing about Stifle/Nought is that Stifle is infinitely more useful on it's own.
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    Re: [Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

    The Faerie Stompy-build is interesting, but MD Threads is almost certainly wrong. Due to the unwieldy CC of 1UU, you could instead be playing Control Magic and stealing everything, and casting it just as easily. The lack of versatility with Threads just isn't worth the fact that maybe once in 20 games you can cast it off 3 Islands when you couldn't have cast Control Magic. There's a reason nothing in the deck costs 1UU.

    Mind Harness - awesome! I've been hoping for that card to see play for 2 years now. It's awesome. And that Doran-deck is one I always wanted to build. As for Burn, it's worth remembering that people play other decks with horrible, horrible combo-MUs like Goblins, WW, Stompy, Life from the Loam, etc. and win with them. It's fully possible to either face no combo, or face just one combo in the swiss and Top 8 in spite of one loss, or even get lucky and win that one (most of those decks have fast enough clock to be able to get lucky against combo, and some disruption). Burn, despite my personal hatred of the archetype, does beat up on Goblins, poses a fast clock and effectively works as a combo-deck with the absolute maximum redundancy; 42-46 cards all doing the same thing. That makes disrupting it much harder since hitting any specific card is going to do you no good; you can't cut off the engine, you just need to brute force the whole deck away if you plan on winning. Of course, Goyf Sligh tends to be plain better, but Burn isn't a strictly inferior choice, nor is it a choice that shouldn't be winning tournaments. It just means you'll need a bunch of luck to do so (and if Chalices get more popular in accordance to Worlds-metagame, might be that the deck should just be abandoned; Stax, Dragon Stompy and Faerie are all bad news).

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    Re: [Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

    How did you see ahead to December 16th, 2007?

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    Re: [Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

    I like that Doran list. Just two things about it:

    1) Is the life loss due to fetches and Bob really so high that you can't afford running Thoughtseize?
    2) Are the Wastelands really worth it in a 3-colored deck with an optional LD in form of Vindicate?

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    Re: [Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

    I wanted to put Doran in a Legacy deck since he was spoiled, but was influenced away from it by others claiming "shaky manabase" issues. The whole while he's been doing fine in my Painland-Gemstone-Village-Basic-Mess of a manabase in type 2. If I can consistantly cast him there on turn 2/3, I don't see why he couldn't be in the land of dual/fetch. I guess I should have persued it.
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    Re: [Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

    A terrific article, and the section titles are a nice touch. My only complaint is that you didn't identify the WW list as Death and Taxes.
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    Re: [Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil View Post
    A terrific article, and the section titles are a nice touch. My only complaint is that you didn't identify the WW list as Death and Taxes.
    I am SO GLAD someone noticed the section titles : )

    It was an oversight to not call it D&T; it was listed as WW in the report so I erroneously went with that.

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    Re: [Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

    Mind Harness! Take that Alix! I was considering playing it in my SB at GP: philly and have entertained the thought one and a while since then. It always seemed too underpowered for my liking and this is only more true with the insane cards available if you splash. I like it in UG though...a lot.
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    Re: [Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Mind Harness - awesome! I've been hoping for that card to see play for 2 years now. It's awesome.
    Speaking of Mind Harness, once the deck in question was listed at German Magic there has been some discussion in the UG Threshould thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by kabal View Post
    Just browsing through some Top 8 lists, and noticed this build.


    Mind Harness
    (1), Enchantment - Aura
    Enchant red or green creature.
    Cumulative Upkeep - {1}.
    You control enchanted creature.

    It makes sense for a U/G to run this card, since it has next to no removable and considering today's meta. Is it better than Threads or Control Magic? Once it gets around to attacking, you have invested 2 mana. Second attack, you now equal to Threads. But then you have invested less mana per turn, which still allows you to cantrip and cast cheap counter magic.

    How about the Red side of it; what Red creatures would you take? If we are talking Goblins; Warchief, Kiki or I guess could be any targetable Goblin?

    What are your guys thoughts on its inclusion?
    Quote Originally Posted by Brushwagg View Post
    Mind Harness seems a little to narrow compared to Shackels. Shackels is reusable and doesn't have a Cumulative Upkeep. Plus Shackels can get creature of other colors. Yes sometimes they are played.

    My feeling is Shackels should at least be a staple in the SB for this deck, and if the meta warrents it MD at least 2. Reason being that with almost no removal you need some that you can reuse, and other then Wasteland and Fetches every land is a Island.

    @Counterbalance: I recently used it in a bigger tournament and found it to be alright. I would probaly go for at least 3 in the MD. You can proably get away with 2 Tops since you can cantrip until you find one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigar View Post
    Mind Harness was awesome all day. Stole so many Goyf, it's crazy.

    Shackles is sooo slow in this deck, and you rarely have more than 3 lands anyway.
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    Re: [Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

    My question would be if you would ever hit the 5 lands to steal a Tarmogoyf in a Threshold deck. Harness is considerably narrower, but it does do the job every day of the week for one fifth of the mana to start out with that Shackles needs.

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    Re: [Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

    Threads is the better comparison, I think.
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    Re: [Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    I am tickled by the inclusion of Strategic Planning. It's an amazing card and far better than Predict in Threshold decks that don't also run Counterspell (as instants become more valuable). It's a selective Mental Note for only a mana more.
    Why is Strategic Planning amazing? Why is it better than Predict? It only puts one more card in the yard and puts one less card in your hand. It seems especially poor in this build as it doesn't let you keep Stifle and Spell Snare mana open as it is a sorcery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    That said, Legacy seems to be slowing down, so this could be just the thing to seal the deal in the deck.
    How is Legacy slowing down? Ichorid and Breakfast can win in the first 3 turns of the game. Belcher is a turn 1 deck. Threshold is faster than ever with Tarmogoyf.

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    Re: [Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

    Quote Originally Posted by AnwarA101 View Post
    How is Legacy slowing down? Ichorid and Breakfast can win in the first 3 turns of the game. Belcher is a turn 1 deck. Threshold is faster than ever with Tarmogoyf.
    Belcher and other ETW decks have been dropping off in favor of more Threshold, from what I've seen. Remember how much of a panic a lot of people were in right before Flash, when ETW was popping up everywhere, and people were scrambling for answers? That isn't happening anymore.

    Threshold isn't slow but it's not a turn 1-4 kill, so every player who drops zoo or goblins or combo for threshold slows the format down a little.

    Survival also is on the rise, or so it seems from where I sit.
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    Re: [Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

    There's a scene on the Simpsons where a doctor is explaining to Mr. Burns that he is healthy because there are so many bacteria in his body that they get jammed trying to enter the door and get stuck. I think of that when I think of Legacy at the moment. You have a lot of superfast decks that slam into each other and end up slowing things down. Bringing up Cephalid Breakfast and Belcher in defense of a fast format can be countered, I feel, by the upswing in Landstill and BBS decks as well.

    Meandeck Tendrils was a 60% turn 1 kill deck in Vintage, and Vintage Belcher decks play at a similar clip. However, the presence of bl00 cards in the format means that they aren't really tearing things up.

    In so much of the playtesting I've been doing, I'm surprised at how many games end on turn eleven instead of turn five. The format isn't blazing fast, which makes me happy. It leads to a bit more diversity.

    EDIT: I like Strat Plans over Predict because you don't need other cards to set it up, and if you want to pair it with Mental Note, you get this great Threshold-building engine. Clearly, if you're holding Spell Snare or Stifle and think they're useful, you hold back mana, or maybe you Strat Plans for a land and then make sure you can still hold those spells up. Players aren't so foolish that they'll make terrible decisions like turning off Spell Snare against Survival, for example.

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    Re: [Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

    Quote Originally Posted by hi-val View Post
    EDIT: I like Strat Plans over Predict because you don't need other cards to set it up, and if you want to pair it with Mental Note, you get this great Threshold-building engine. Clearly, if you're holding Spell Snare or Stifle and think they're useful, you hold back mana, or maybe you Strat Plans for a land and then make sure you can still hold those spells up. Players aren't so foolish that they'll make terrible decisions like turning off Spell Snare against Survival, for example.
    You used the word amazing. I don't see how reaching Threshold perhaps a turn sooner with 1 less card in hand is amazing. Having to choose between playing draw spells and playing your disruption is worse than not having to make that choice. It costs you tempo if your opponent doesn't do anything that can be Spell Snared or Stifled and you didn't play Strategic Planning, but if you play Predict you don't have to make that choice.

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