As I've been having success with this deck recently, and others have as well, I figure it to be high time we formally create a thread for it. At the least, it allows the discussion of the deck in a thread separate from the Imperial Painter discussion. We'll begin with the list, as of September 2008:
4 Polluted delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
2 Island
2 Trinket Mage
4 Painter's Servant
3 Dark Confidant
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstrom
4 Ponder
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Grindstone
4 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tormod's Crypt
SB:
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Tombstalker
1x Tormod's Crypt
3x Krosan Grip
3x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Engineered Explosives
The sideboard has changed to include some number of BEB/Hydroblast, instead of the Plagues that were previously there. We made this change at the recent Beta Trop event in Syracuse, because of the large presence of Goyf Sligh players at the event. It's still good against Gobs, in tandem with your man plan, and it has similar utility against Combo. It provides an additional way to deal with both Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon, and can randomly hose people should you opt to play Painter on Red. I managed to win a game against Goyf Sligh due to Blasting two of his Goyfs, which was pretty sweet.
The deck is pretty straight forward. Your game 1 plan involves little more than comboing out, which can often be protected by Counter-Top. Don’t go gung-ho into the combo (ie, the turn three win) unless you’re positive that your opponent cannot protect himself from it. Generally, there’s little incentive for you to go for the quick win during game 1. You can play the control role pretty well against most decks, so take your time, and set it up with plenty of protection.
The real strategy comes in boarding with the deck. I’ve had to adopt the plan of shuffling 15 cards from the board into the deck (even between games 2 and 3), in order to mask the strategy of boarding the Man Plan in. If you play the deck (or against it) and you see 10 cards coming in, there’s a pretty significant chance that there will be Goyfs in the deck for game 2. If you see 15 come in, and 15 come out, then you really have no idea what’s in store, which is the entire point of the Man Plan to begin with.
Generally, if I’m boarding in 7 guys, the 7 cards that come out are:
3x Dark Confidant
2x Painter’s Servant
2x Grindstone
The Bobs are traded straight up for the Tombstalkers. You DO NOT want to take 8 to the face by flipping one off Bob. As for the combo pieces, it’s a simple switch of versatility for redundancy. You don’t want to completely remove the combo, because it can still win the game, but it isn’t plan A anymore. It’s more of a “oh, here’s two combo pieces. I guess I win,” aspect during the Man Plan games. While the opponent is forced to deal with the beaters, lest he be found at zero life, you have the opportunity to find and assemble a two card combo which doesn’t require the attack step. It’s a good thing.
Note that I don’t opt for the Man Plan in every matchup. Quite often, the pre-board configuration is simply better against a deck than guys would be. As an example, I very rarely bring in guys against Survival. They simply have a more difficult time beating the combo than they do beating dudes. Occasionally I’ll leave Bob in, and board in the Goyfs, simply to act as Wall of Tarmogoyf while I work to assemble the win.
The other most frequently boarded out cards are the Vaults and a Ponder, as well as a Thoughtseize or two if I’m on the draw.
The last point I want to make on boarding concerns the Painter Mirror, either the blue or red version. If any of you are familiar with the Oath Mirror from any time it’s been played, you’ll recall the strategy of boarding out your Oaths, and forcing your opponent to play the cards that are otherwise dead in your deck. The same plan is viable in the Painter mirror. Vs. Imperial Painter, for example, I will side out all four Painters, because I know their deck sucks without Painter, and they rely on having it in play to function. I’m willing to let the match come down to who can reliably Grind first, especially if I’ve got Academy Ruins in play. Your best turn 1 play in these matchups is Grindstone, which is counterintuitive, but true. It sets you ahead in a really unnatural way, because it shuts them off their Painter until they can either win all at once, or find a way to deal with your Stone. This gives you plenty of time to assume control of the game.
That’s really all I’ve got to say on the deck for now. I’d be happy to field questions or comments, as well as give more advice if you guys need any. The deck has been extremely solid the entire time I’ve been playing it, and I’ve only narrowly missed on top 8 every time I’ve played it. Feel free to discuss. Thanks!
1 Echoing Truth seems a bit random. Can you explain?
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Sure. It deals with any non-land permanent that would impede you or kill you, for two mana at instant speed. Also, it's easy to find with the combination of cantrips and LDV. It's also an additional out to Empty the Warrens, which is pretty relevant.
All I can say about this deck is MOAR!!!!! Lim Dul's vault.
Seriously, the card is amazing, and I cannot see why you would want to run any less than 4, a two mana 'stack my deck' is pretty good I hear.
This is all.
Can you elaborate a bit more on match-ups? How does it hold against nonbasic hate for instance?
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
There are two basic ways people hate on lands these days - Moon effects and Wasteland.
Moon effects are anywhere between mildly annoying to devastating, depending on where you are in the game when it hits, and what kind of draw you have. If you kept the hand with a bunch of non-basics and cantrips, you're screwed. Such is life. If you've had the chance to fetch and Island and hopefully a Swamp, you're usually golden, because you have access to the necessary mana to find your combo (which is colorless) to win through the Moon.
Getting hit by a Wasteland isn't really that big a deal, because you can fetch basics to play around it. On the other hand, recurring Wastes can be annoying.
I'd say Aggro Loam is one of your worst matchups, due to the combination of recursive Wastes and Devastating Dreams to nuke the basics, should you try to play around the Wastes. I've had a tough time with that deck.
Just looks like some japanese lists. , you just moved the Goyfs in the SB and play more copys of Grindstone.
Every DTB forum update is simply shuffling around the same ten decks.
What about this list?
Mana sources
4 Polluted delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground sea
2 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
3 Island
//Total: 18
Kill Conditions
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
//Total: 8
Cantrips
3 Trinket Mage
3 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstrom
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Lim-Dûl's Vault
//Total: 20
Protection
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
4 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tormod's Crypt
//Total: 14
Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate
1 Toromod's Crypt
1 Enginereed Explosives
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Hydroblast
2 Mind Harness
//Total: 15
Wouldn't Fabricate be better than Trinket Mage? It gets any artifact including both combo pieces. Someone at our local tournament was playing it and it seems better than Trinket Mage. I don't think this deck plans to go beatdown with Trinket Mage.
Trinket Mage does chump Tarmogoyf and other guys while you set up the combo. The only thing Trinket Mage can't get is Painter; I'd rather have a 2/2 able to block and use cantrips to find the other half of the combo than have Painter in hand and a 4/5 or 5/6 crashing into my face.
Those are my thoughts, at least. I'm not sure what Adam thinks.
Why wouldn't you have a card that would basically let you win the game the next turn instead of a 2/2 body that might not be able to get you the other combo piece to just win?
I believe the goal is to win as fast as possible and Fabricate does a lot better job at that than trinket mage. I would always prefer fabricate over trinket mage, having a 2/2 body is just not relevant.
I'm sure you can think of examples where trinket mage has won you the game, but in terms of results, fabricate will win you more games than not.
I can't believe when people play combo and they fear a fucking green creature in Tarmogoyf. Stupid.
~Shriek~
Your goal really isn't to win ASAP. This is a control-combo deck, not a balls to the wall combo deck, so it's ok to win a little slower. I'm not going to give an opinion either way on the Fabricate vs. Mage issue, because honestly I haven't done any testing with Fab, but I have won more than a few games with Mage beatdown, especially in conjunction with Bob. I'll let you guys know.
What are you planning on cutting for the 1-of artifact that kills a non-black creature (from Shards)? That seems like an auto-include in this deck since you can grab it with Trinket and blow up Goyf without knocking out your own Counterbalance in the process (which EE does, I think cutting EE is clearly wrong).
The 3-3 split on Dark Confidant and Lim-Duls Vault is jarring. I would imagine one is better than the other (albiet they serve different purposes, Vault is better at allowing you to combo, Confidant better at allowing you to control), my inclination is that Confidant is better than Vault (Sadin's winning GP Flash deck ran 4 Confidants and no Vaults, and this was the tournament where Vault actually shined).
It's too bad there isn't room for the Goyfs main. I guess I just want my cake and to eat it too...
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
I may be forced to cut the Crypt from the maindeck to include TerrorTrinket when Shards becomes legal. It's interesting, because I really like the MD Crypt with all the Ichorid running around, but I think the removal spell will be better overall. It may be a meta call.
You could just make the SB plan permanent.
-2 Painters
-2 Grindstone
+4 Goyf
or possibly
-1 Painter
-2 Stones
-1 Ponder
+4 goyf
The logic behind it still holds in Game 1 as Games 2 and 3 as they have to stop your deck from attacking them at multiple angles and the deck's goal isn't to combo off as quickly as possible.
A lot of people have mentioned that option, but I don't really like it. I like the redundancy of the combo game 1, and you can blindside a lot of players with Goyfs games two and/or three. You can't really do that if they see Goyf during game 1.
The other thing I forgot to mention is how good Turn 2 Goyf is, after your opponent plays a turn 1 Needle on Grindstone. Lovelovelove that play.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)