Last edited by Bryant Cook; 09-25-2009 at 09:25 AM.
Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Lotus Petal, and Chrome Mox.
This hand has 2 possible choices, a turn one Warrens for 12, or waiting a turn, hoping for a playable spell, and attempting to tendrils for 20 the second option can be dangerous because of drawing dead and being forced to Warrens turn 2. I'll walk through both ways.
1. Play Petal, Petal, Mox, imprinting Burning Wish, cast both Rituals, and Tutor up the Warrens.
2. Draw. If the draw is any piece of acceleration, your play is Petal, Ritual, Tutor for a new Ritual, Ritual, Ritual, Petal #2, Mox, (Petal, Crit,LED,Mox), Burning Wish getting Tendrils, Tendrils for 20.
In most situations I'd much rather go for the Warrens, because it puts your opponent on FOW/EE/Clasm or lose while the second scenario brings Daze, Stifle and Discard into the equation.
Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Orim’s Chant, Dark Ritual, Cruel Bargain, Lotus Petal and Chrome Mox.
Petal, Ritual, Bargain. Draw into Burning Wish, SSG, LED, Rite. Mox imprinting Brainstorm, Brainstorm into Mox, Infernal, Paradise, Putting back Chant, Infernal. Mox for storm, Paradise, RFG SSG, LED, Rite, Wish-> Tendrils, Tendrils for 20.
Simian Spirit Guide, Simian Spirit Guide, Ill-Gotten Gains, Ponder, Lotus Petal, Lion’s Eye Diamond and City of Brass.
Land, Ponder (Land, Land, Wish), Draw Wish, SSG, SSG, LED, Petal, Wish, Warrens for 10.
Lion’s Eye Diamond, Rite of Flame, Simian Spirit Guide, Gemstone Mine, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, and Infernal Tutor.
This is an easy one. SSG Rite of Flame, Ritual, Land, Ritual, Infernal for LED Number 2 with BBR floating, LED, LED, Infernal number 2, IGG loop for the win.
Gemstone Mine, Undiscovered Paradise, Chrome Mox, Ponder, Diminishing Returns, Dark Ritual, and Ill-Gotten Gains.
In this hand, I attempted to go turn 1 ponder, Turn 2 Dreturns with the ability to float B. I drew about 4 tutors off of Returns and fizzled.
Bryant, I love the "Sample Hands for You" idea. Thanks for the update.
Why is a new thread created? It seems like the Solidarity thread is doing just fine with 100 pages. Also I just made a post I hoped getting some response to and now nobody will look at the other thread anymore .
Ok
I made top 8 at the Belgian Championship (129 players) with TES yesterday with 5-1-2. Only lost in T8 from Dragonstompy (main Chalice+3sphere can hurt). The draws were ID's against UWb Landstill and some mono R aggresive Control when I was 5-0-1 anyway. The metagame was really good for me, the most played decks was Loam I think, after that Thresh hybrids and then pretty much anything, including a fair amount of Aggro, much Board Control, and some Landstill.
There was another TES deck with 5-2, and there was one that was 4-0-1 the last time I checked it, but probably lost the rounds after that.
My list was a little different from the one I came in 2nd with at the Dutch Championship. The changes were: -1 Tomb of Urami, -2 EtW, -1 Chrome Mox, -Sb Rough//Tumble, +1 Tarnished Citadel, +2 Ponder, +1 Simian Spirit Guide, +1 Sb Ponder.
The whole decklist:
4 Orim's chant
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
2 Plunge into Darkness
3 Ponder
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
3 Chrome Mox
1 Simian Spirit Guide
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel
Sideboard:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Grapeshot
1 Shattering Spree
1 Ponder
4 Duress
4 Xantid Swarm
I was happy with the changes and the whole decklist except for the Ponder Sb. I knew it wouldn't be very good, but I thought Rough//Tumble was worse. But it's probably a little better, I am still searching for a good wishable card or something that matters when you board it in once.
The reasoning for the SSG was that having double Mox always sucks.
I added the Ponders because it gives you more options and doesn't force you to go for tokens and I found the EtW would often be a dead card.
Because I have 4 Brainstorm, 3 Ponder and 4 Chant I decided to take out Tomb for something that can cast those spells. It was good and I never had a problem with the life, I even Ponderd off it turn 1 against Goyf sligh and it didn't matter at all. Remember you can use for free colorless mana.
I believe this to be the almost optimal list. I can only imagine Cabal Ritual to be a little less good in some metas, because in my meta there is usually a lot of Pikula/Pox/MBAggro. So I would like to hear your opinions and criticisms.
Hi friends!!!
Now I play this list:
// Lands
1 [OD] Tarnished Citadel
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
2 [SC] Xantid Swarm / cabal terphay / Thoughtseize
// Spells
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
1 [7E] Infernal Contract
2 [LRW] Ponder
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
2 [SHM] Manamorphose
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [CHK] Cleanfall
SB: 2 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB:
I'd play:
- Whell of Sun and Moon and Krosan Grip
+ Rack and ruin, Ingot Chewer, Serenity or Hurkyl's Recall
In my metagame there're a lot of stax and it's a not good game.
I'd play overmaster in my side too, but I've few slots.
Gemstone Mine, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Burning Wish.
Play Mine, Petal. Cast Dark Ritual and Infernal Tutor for the second LED. Cast both LEDs and use the mana floating from the Ritual and the Petal to cast Infernal Tutor, cracking both LEDs. Get IGG. Win.
Brainstorm, Ponder, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Simian Spirit Guide, Chrome Mox.
Mox imprinting Brainstorm, Pomder. Ponder reveals Brainstorm, LED, Burning Wish. Draw the Wish, and put Brainstorm on top of your Library (Don't worry about the LED, as you will Brainstorm into it.). Pass turn. Next turn, Brainstorm into LED and 2 City of Brass. Put back a land and the Wish. Play both LEDs, Ritual, and SSG, Infernal, crack both LEDs, win.
Ponder, Gemstone Mine, Ad Nauseum, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Ponder, Chrome Mox.
Personally, I don't like this hand as it doesn't really do much until turn 3 and that is highly dependent of how good your Ponders are.
I mulled into Burning Wish, IT, City, Mine, Ponder, LED. I started out with Mine, Ponder->Shuffle and draw a Rite of Flame. Next turn, I draw Brainstorm and proceed to Brainstorm into two lands and a Cabal Ritual. Unfortunately, I'm short on initial mana sources so I have to wait until turn three to combo. However, it was definitely a faster kill than I would have gotten with the first hand as my Ponders were awful.
Burning Wish, Simian Spirit Guide, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Brainstorm.
Petal->Brainstorm into Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, LED. Put back the Mox and the Ritual. Cast 3 Rites off of the SSG and play the LED. Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns floating 3 Red and a Blue. Draw Tendrils, Rite, Rite, City of Brass, Lotus Petal, IT, Brainstorm. Cast Brainstorm and both Rites, cast whatever you can off of the Brainstorm to up the storm count, then play the land and the Petal and cast a massive Tendrils.
City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, Gemstone Mine, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Ad Nauseum, Chrome Mox.
This is definitely a mull. If those Moxes were Petals, this would be a keepable hand. Anyway, I mulled into Brainstorm, Petal, 2 Mines, Ad Nauseum and Burning Wish. Brainstorm into LED, Wish, Mox. Here's where it gets techy. Put the Nauseum on top of your library with the Mine under it. Cast LED, Mox with a BWish Imprint and Petal and pass the turn. On your next upkeep, break LED and use 2 of the other sources to add 5 mana to your pool. Draw Ad Nauseum and play it (isn't instant speed great?). I drew too many cards to remember it all, but there was enough initial mana sources to cast Duress, Chant, 2 cantrips and multiple Rites and Rituals.
I have asked that question to numerous people and all have said that you can't do that. If you break LED during your upkeep the mana empties at the end of your upkeep. And if you break LED during your drawstep the mana still empties because drawing a card ends your draw step. I know you can't break it during your upkeep but it would make sense if you could break LED with drawing a card on the stack but I still don't think you can do that. Does anyone know if that is accurate?
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Sorry Pulp Fiction but you are totally mistaken. Mana pools empty at end of Phases, not Steps. Thus you can take your mana from your Upkeep Step to your Draw Step. And second: Your draw step doesnt END once you draw the card but actually really just STARTS after that; you receive priority for the 1st time during your draw step right AFTER you drew the card, nothing you can do about it.
I really wanna urge you not to trust "numerous" people on rules issues who obviously have no idea.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.DeckOriginally Posted by Tacosnape, TrialByFire, Silverdragon mix
Current Record: 1-83-2
in reference to the above list, this deck has 16 spells requiring red mana
4 rite of flame
4 burning wish
1 empty the warrens
1 grapeshot
3 pyroblast
3 shattering spree
but only 11 spells requiring blue mana
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
2 mystical tutor
1 chain of vapor
1 diminishing returns
can someone explain to me why x2 underground seas would be better than x2 badlands ? because the brainstorms/ponders/mystical tutors get played more often ? so more blue is needed in the long run ?
Brainstorms, Ponders, and Mystical Tutors are your set-up spells. You want to be able to cast them early in the game to find what you need. Red is mainly needed when you're going off, so it's less important to have permanent mana sources that make red mana.
Most of the comments aren't true for a good ANT list. Like this one: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25459
(This/good) ANT also has some advantages. It has place for 8 protectionspells main, while still having a consistent turn 3 win. This doesn't help much in the CB MU, but a lot against Landstill/MUC/Merfolk and other blue CBless decks. Landstill and MUC are good MU's, Merfolk even when ANT is played well.
Fetches also have a big advantage. Brainstorm becomes a lot better, Ponder becomes better and Cabal Ritual becomes a lot better. You still have versatility with Chant->IGG/AdN and EtW in the board.
ANT isn't bad. But I must confess that after looking at your latest list, the two are very similar and such TES is also pretty good.
Team Nijmegen
@ Bryant: So with the new list do you ever find yourself missing the Cabal Rits? I mean i know they were a bit inconsistent (either spectacular or garbage) but they were still accel (although you compensated by upping the land count)
Also, how much have you played the new list since you still have 4x mox and 3x tutor now. I know AdN off the top is redic good but is the card disadvantage causing you to mull more often?
I'm not saying there aren't advantages of ANT over TES, however, I don't consider fetchlands to be a great one in today's match-ups. While the extra shuffle is nice don't get me wrong. I'd rather not be down a land against Thresh/Merfolk/Team America.
I know you like your own ANT list, however, I was looking at the archetype as a whole. Not a specific list.
I haven't missed it at all, it was always the first card I boarded out. Not taking the additional 2 damage is nice because you can often dig deeper.
I have only played it a week or so, the card disadvantage hasn't hurt me yet.
Very well done, Mr. Bryant. Fulfilling my request is one thing you won't regret of, trust me. Moreover, it will encourage more people to pick up this deck or, at least, to watch at and thinking twice it before picking up ANT xD (but, still, who knows..)
You didn't post all the matchups, so if you have time, it 'd be great if you did it ( i see some important MUs are missing like Landstill, Dragon Stompy, Pseudo Pikula or Eva Green decks); despite this, i wanna ask you a question: why did you write to take out Brainstorms against blue based? I mean, now that you added 1 more Mystical, brainstorm seems able to be more optimized.. Did you mean Ponder perhaps?
And yes, i see somehow TES is taking more the shape of a 4 color ANT (the more mystical, the more quantity and dual lands..).. I hope this, at least, will reduce the times when you open with no landers or terrible hands. Last thing: you cut 1 Infernal, for the situations where you draw 2 of them and can't go off wasting time because of the hellbent issue, i suppose. But didn't you find times when it was burning wish to be more a weight than IT? I mean, Tutor at least can grab you more mana accels or protections, while wish can't grab mana accels, and mayrandomly give mana problems ( especially now that you are relying on 3 dual lands and not anymore on a fully rainbowed manabase).
I had more match-ups, but it didn't save. I'll do more, but I can't promise how many. No, I meant Brainstorm, Ponder is often better against blue. You're searching for cards, if they're not there you have a shuffle effect built into the card. I cut an Infernal, because I often board out two. It's dead in multiples and sucks to draw sometimes. Burning Wish is just more valueable, it's a threat against blue. Players often feel obligated to counterspell it.
Edit: If you want you can board out a Mox instead of a Brainstorm.
Ok.
A stupid question : what exactly led you to make these changes to the previous list? The necessity to get a more solid setup against blue decks , which are now dominaing Legacy? Or you just couldn't stand some of the deck's inconsistency issues?
Ah, also your new list is missing a Wish-answer for Counterbalance. I'd suggest looking back to the ol' friend Cleanfall, which is as good as Vindicate to that purpose, but more easy to be cast.
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