Oh, and bryant, mate your 75 has a total amount of 5 Duress.
Just sayin.
Team Legal Actions.
This. What i meant is that i wouldn't run mysticals if there was a better tutor, but since it doesn't exist and Mystical can grab you a sideboard anti-hate card as well as accel and bombs, it stays in. ANd BW, you can say what you want about the fact that i play -1 tutor,+1 land, ecc, but playing a TES version that abuses Tinder Wall and crappy lands like Paradise or Orchard seems a sort of regression to me. Storm combo shouldn't lose to creature removal, nor to its own lands. The version we're playing atm (all of us except you) is far more stable. Perhaps it loses a bit of speed, but the gains in consistency are far more. And even a fast storm combo like TES nowadays needs consistency with the shitload of problems and hate it has to face. I remember when I used to play with a 10-rainbow lands configuration,and each time i lost 4 lives to my own Orchard tokens or couldn't go beyond 2 lands on the board because of Paradise well it just plain sucked.Originally Posted by GreenOne
And I'm saying this not giving a random look to your list and saying " oo well he plays with tinder wall and ssg-->failure". I tried your list, and wasn't happy with it,especially with the lack of iGG.
De gustibus,man. You'll win way more tournaments than me with TES, but i'm not sold on your version.
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why would you not run igg? it's like one of the best cards in the deck...most of the time i'm even okay with drawing it as i'll either brainstorm it away before i combo off or i'll simply cast it with it/wish in my hand or already in the yard. I'm starting to really hate Ad Nauseam as even though my average cmc is really low I can still lose from 20 life with it as I did this Saturday against enchantress flipping Krosan Grip, 4x Duress, IGG, 1 Lotus Petal, 1 Dark Ritual, 2 Infernal Tutor, 1 Burning Wish, 1 Ponder, 1 Brainstorm.
His reasoning is: Ad Nauseam is worse when you have IGG in the deck (cc4).
Now, substitute your flipped IGG with Tinder Wall, and you get 3 more life and 1 more accelerant to work with. So you could continue flipping, and a single LED, or double Rite of Flame, or a couple Mox/Petal wins you the game
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Fixed. The opening post keeps deleting itself when I edit it.
So....when I c/p mistakes happen.
greenone: he runs 2 ad nauseam so I think it is more appropriate to replace my igg i flipped with with the ad nauseam which is even worse.
Being able to flip down to 4 has made a huge difference to me rather than flipping down to 5. I've also tried a list with only Ad Nauseam as the only high casting cost. Brainfreeze as the kill (Maindeck), and no Ill-Gotten Gains. I don't think it was very good, but it was quite fun.
The deck plays really well in its current configuration. I was very close to top 8ing in NJ this weekend except I got really unlucky against Alix Hatfield playing zoo and could have possibly won the side event if it wasn't for my ad nauseam flips against enchantress. The only differences in my list are -1 underground sea, -1 infernal tutor, +1 undiscovered paradise, +1 mystical tutor (so my avg cmc is actually less than yours). My sb is currently 1 tendrils, 1 etw, 1 grapeshot, 1 infernal tutor, 1 diminishing returns, 1 ill gotten gains, 1 deathmark, 3 pyroblast, 1 krosan grip, 2 shattering spree, 1 hurkyl's recall, 1 duress.
Preface, I have never, nor will I ever play Undiscovered Paradise and Tinder Wall doesn't lose games to STP unless you were either a bad player or kept a bad hand (which is only relevant in 1 game regardless).
Golden Lands vs Dual Lands is a question of losing to damage or losing to mana constraints. You may have lost games to damage, but I've lost games to mana constraints and I'd rather deal with 1 damage than deal with not being able to Orim's Chant.
TES doesn't address hate with flexibility, TES addresses hate with SPEED. I don't know how every one else has managed to turn TES into DDFT, but Mystical Tutor doesn't deal with Counterbalance and aggro + hate bears is still a joke IMO. You haven't stabilized the deck with more lands and less tutors, you've just made it slower to shore up what's most likely inexperience with mulliganing (no offense).
I'm not saying my version is perfect, or even best, but I'm pretty certain there's something wrong with the current lists, and IMO it's the speed of the deck.
For what it's worth, I've been playing Mystical Tutor in TES for a long time (way before Ad Nauseam) due to personal preference and play style. Nobody else agreed with me back then and I'm not quite sure why (other) people play the card now. As far as TES looking more and more like DDFT, I guess you could say that I have some Palpatine-esque manipulation skills.
Removing SSG from the deck has dramatically decreased the speed by decreasing the available IMS count. While people have tried to address this with additional lands, lands have a practical limit on duplicate copies as an IMS forcing a noticeable slowdown. If you wanted to put SSG back in you could run the following with a total CMC of 60 not counting the singleton Ad Nauseam (which is impossible to flip off itself as far as I can tell) if you take Breathweapon's 0-IGG idea:
10 lands
4 ssg
8 artifact initial mana
4 led
8 1 mana rituals
8 blue cantrip
8 2cc tutors
8 1cc protection
1 tendrils
1 ad nauseam
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I wasn't implying DDFT's strategy is inferior, but I do believe TES needs to do what it does best and not find some shitty half way mark between the two concepts.
I don't think my remarks conveyed that I thought you implied that. I test a lot of different decks (mostly storm combo, but some very strange stuff). When I play TES in a non-testing capacity (where I use whatever list I glean over AIM from Bryant), I include Mystical Tutor (and have done so for a very long time). I'm more comfortable with the extra tutoring and often found myself in metagames where an increased threat density with slightly decreased speed was an acceptable trade off. Nobody agreed with me when I was running 2-3 Mystical Tutor and 4 Street Wraith for exactly the same reasons people want to run 2-3 Mystical Tutor now (obviously now without Street Wraith and with Ponders) and I'm a bit confused by it.
I agree that TES needs to focus on speed baring new additions to the card pool. Slowing down puts the deck in a perilous situation where it can't consistently race hate while not being able to effectively develop its mana and resources if the hate comes down. In my testing, the reason the deck has slowed down is the lack of additional initial mana sources in Mystical Tutor builds which is why I suggested SSG.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I'm talking about pre-M10 rules, but there was a goldfish session to test Mystical Tutor, that demonstrated that the Mystical wasn't slowing down the deck, at least in comparison to Ponder.
This were the results:
And this were results based on speed only.Better Mystical: 30
Better Ponder: 20
Same: 50
Without the LED trick we can assume that AN has become a worse target, but does this mean that the deck is losing speed playing Mystical?out of 79 times Mystical was actually played, the target was:
Dark ritual: 36
AN: 34
IT: 6
Wish: 2
Tendrils: 1
Maybe we should do another goldfish session?
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
@Emidln
Apologies, I meant DDFT's strategy isn't an inferior strategy, however it's an inappropriate strategy for TES.
The list you posted is my exact list, card for card, with the following SB.
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Empty the Warrens
1 Grape Shot
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Thoughtseize
1 Deathmark
1 Simplify (or Hull Breach, I go back and forth)
4 Shattering Spree
@Greenone
Yes, Mystical Tutor, Chain of Vapor and IGG decrease TES's acceleration by a ton - pre M10 M.Tutor and post M10 M.Tutor are worlds apart.
By 8 artifact mana your talking about petals and chrome mox correct? Also how much does it rain on the parade if the AdN get countered? I usually only play one and I just feel lucky.
You still have 8 protection spells and Wishes (plus tutors and cantrips to find wishes) to find IGG or Diminishing Returns if necessary.
The list using real card names would be this:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Forbidden Orchard
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Orim's Chant
2 Silence
4 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
You might want to replace my choice of rainbow lands #9 and #10. Likewise, you might want some other protection package.
Last edited by emidln; 09-09-2009 at 01:12 AM. Reason: -2 Paradise, +2 Orchard
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Interesting you don't play 1-3 Mystical Tutor. I always liked running just 2 of them so I could run 1x AdN. But that list does look a lot more like the original TES lists. As for finding AdN, I am assuming it is just LED, Rit, IT or something like that? Just by looking at the list it looks like it would have a really rough Merfolk matchup and not mulligan that well. But I guess it is all preference, I usually preferred 12 lands but as it is, that looks like the most explosive and fast list of TES I have seen.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Merfolk would be very good postboard where you get to do something like -4 Duress, +4 Pyroblast. Even preboard, I don't actually see it being that rough.
This list is merely trying to focus on speed. I'll leave it to those who actually play TES in tournaments to decide if they want give up some flexibility for raw speed (while i continue to play NLS).
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Merfolk are kind of a push over, because all they have is FOW since Daze and Stifle are so heavily mitigated by SSG and IT->AdN. You should always have an edge against decks not packing Counterbalance/Spellsnare.
Edit: Undiscovered Paradise should be Forbidden Orchard.
I'll be sincere, lately I have been testing your list, BreathWeapon, and I liked it a lot. Your hybrid of the old-TES skeleton paired with AdNauseam is something really good, and i like the "solidity" of having all as a 4-ofs (except the bombs, of course). I have been goldfishing it a bit and testing too, and I usually went off on the 2nd, max 3rd turn. And i have to admit that without Mystical, the list can function well too, and it gains the so-debated "increase in speed".
BUT i really felt the lack of Ill-Gotten Gains maindeck, and revealing the Apes off AdN wasn't always a really nice thing. The AdN capacity of flipping is, in fact, dramatically worse than the new lists. It happened that i killed myself from 17 lives or so because i flipped too much tutors.
And another thing I'm not really fond of are the 2 Orchards, for obvious reasons. I think that 2 USeas can fit in there too, without compromising the possibility to cast Chant. For red, w already have SSg as a free mana source, so Volcanic shouldn't be needed in here. Cantrips, Duress and Dark rituals are way more important as setup pieces or combo starters. Bryant in his old list used to run 2 Seas aside from the 8 usual rainbow lands, and i think it worked well for him. Ever tried that or you are conservatory on the neceissity of all rainbow lands?
One last question: can the deck with this structure fight in good ways the hate cards coming from g2 and g3 , AND counterbalance? The sb lacks good artifact/enchantment removal (Krosan Grip) because of its cost. Hull Breach goes under CB, and EtW is a way to go around the problem, not to solve it, and it folds to the first EE passing there. And lost of lists playing CB also pack EE (see Dreadstill, Baseruption..).
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