Diminishing Returns gives the opponent 7 new cards, while Slithermuse does not give the opponent 7 new cards, hence Slithermuse doesn't "risk Force of Will twice."Originally Posted by Nihil
BUT, Slithermuse does NOT always give you 7 cards.
At 2U it was an INCREDIBLE card, at 3U, not so much.
Sorry but WotC dicked us over.
Slithermuse does give you 7 cards in the one situation that really matters, going all in on the play when your only choice is to Force check the opponent with a handful of acceleration. It doesn't need to always give you 7 cards, that's what Diminishing Returns is for. The important distinction is between the opportunity costs of Slithermuse and Diminishing Returns, where Slithermuse > Diminishing Returns, and I'll spend 1xMD slot for when Slithermuse > Diminishing Returns as long as it still functions as a appr. Draw 4 when drawn.BUT, Slithermuse does NOT always give you 7 cards.
At 2U it was an INCREDIBLE card, at 3U, not so much.
Sorry but WotC dicked us over.
At 2U it was a threat, at 3U it's a tutor target.
How about when your opponent has less cards in hand than you? You know, the time that you REALLY need to draw cards? What happens then?... And how are you going to fit this into the deck?...
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
You tutor for Diminishing Returns ...
The deck has 6 modular slots, it shouldn't be difficult to find room for it. I'd cut an Infernal Contract, since Slithermuse is comparable to an Infernal Contract when drawn, but it's a superior Draw 7 when it's tutored for under the proper conditions.
When you chant your opponent before attempting to go off, the part about giving 7 new cards to your opponent by Diminishing Returns wouldn't matter right?
If you couldn't chant your opponent, then you have equal chance of losing if that person counters when you try to Tutor + LED.
Right, there's no difference in the outcome, but Diminishing Returns requires Orim's Chant for the same effect, which is both a card and W color requirement. I believe the odds of Force of Will=GG are 3/2 in TES's favor, which is/can be superior to the odds of the match up itself. If it's 3/2 in TES's favor, it's often better than mulliganing to 6 or less.
Slithermuse does have other benefits as well, not shuffling the discard pile results in additional mana from Right of Flames and Cabal Rituals, so when Slithermuse is better than Diminishing Returns, it's a lot better than Diminishing Returns.
Slithermuse is a situational tutor target, but considering it's a reasonable threat in its own right, I think it's worth the MD space. I don't think I can explain it better, I suggest testing it and reaching your own conclusions.
I agree with points on each side, I still like the card, however the cons outweigh the pros here. I won't be playing it.
Slithermuse seems, the more I look at it, a 'win more' card instead of simply a 'win' card. In the situations that you can make better use of it, you pretty much have the game in the bag with something else... like post-chant, you either have the tutorable win or Diminishing Returns nets you a guaranteed 7 cards. I see it as a temptation, making you dare to risk your whole hand. If you Slithermuse, you pretty much need a win condition in those next 3-4 cards or so or you scoop. You also tend to commit 1 more card to cast Slithermuse instead of a Bargain/Contract, further escalating your exposed risk. I... don't see enough situations where I'd want to Infernal Tutor for it instead of IGG or D. Returns. Though I may potentially net more or it is slightly easier to cast, IGG gives security in card quality and D. Returns gives constant security in card draws. I'll take the extra possible land/petal drop in better knowing how large my hand is after a reset. If I can't win in those 7 cards, then the game is pretty much out, but going all out and relying on 3-5 cards with Slithermuse...
Advantages:
-Can be used in a hand without Cabal/Dark Ritual
-Not Duressable
-Needs 1 less land/petal than D. Returns
Disadvantages:
-Can be stifled
-Baits the player into going 'all out' and exposing more of their hand.
Slithermuse isn't a card for novices, if you don't know when to Slithermuse and when to Diminishing Returns, you shouldn't be playing with it at all.
On to another subject, here's an interesting build I've been testing on Apprentice.
"Tinder TES"
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
3 Diminishing Returns
1 Slithermuse
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Right of Flame
4 Tinder Wall
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Glimmervoid
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain
1 Hull Breach
1 Rough/Tumble
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Open Slots
The 3 Diminishing Returns/Empty the Warrens configuration isn't a new suggestion, since I mentioned it in the previous thread, but Tinder Wall has proven to be a terrific ritual effect in this deck. As much as I hate to cut Simian Spirit Guide, Tinder Wall as a G one drop for RR on the following turn has given the deck, and Diminishing Returns, a lot of added punch.
It's not the end all be all of TES, but I think it demonstrates that Tinder Wall is a serious consideration for the mana base. It either serves as a Right of Flame for G or as a one drop, the latter of the two being in a mana hole the deck needs to fill from Orim's Chant mana inefficiency (compared to Xantid Swarm as a mana efficient one drop).
I just finished 20 games, this list is terrible against Landstill and Threshold. Engineered explosives and stifle eat your face, you can't always empty your hand due to too many cloggy cards (2 extra ETW and DIminishing Returns) for Infernal Tutor. Also, the turn 1 ratio is a lot less due to no additional free mana source. I don't think it's better than what we've all been playing.
It depends on their disruption, no version of TES is good against Force of Will, Counterspell, Stifle and Wasteland versions of Landstill that isn't running 8+ disruption cards, which is where -2 Diminishing Returns -2 Empty the Warrens for +4 Xantid Swarm comes in. I can't remember the last time I saw Threshold run Stifle, and the Engineered Explosives count isn't ever high enough to be a dependable out to Empty the Warrens, but again it depends on their disruption. If Landstill or Threshold is prepared for TES, then Landstill or Threshold tend to be the overwhelming favorites.
The reduced turn one percentages are made up with an increased turn two percentage where the increase in the turn two percentage is > than the reduced turn one percentages. I don't have a problem with the 4cc cards in this deck, which aren't all that dissimilar from the BBB cards, preventing Infernal Tutor for reaching Hellbent, because most of the time that 4cc card is a threat in and of itself or Infernal Tutor can double up on the 4cc card, in this case Diminishing Returns, to break thru' a counter wall.
The main focus is on Tinder Wall and how best to exploit its mana production. The 3/3 Returns/Warrens configuration is just a preference based on style, and what I think is one of the best uses of the RR production to open up UU for a second turn Returns. I really like the additional one drop in this deck, and Tinder Wall is both a one drop and a G Right of Flame, so it's extremely flexible.
I also find Tinder Wall useful for off setting the 1W cost of Abeyance with the additional mana production, which makes the idea of a Tinder Wall/Abeyance MD configuration really appealing.
1st Place & 4th Place - Winter Wonderland
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=8231
6th Place - Spanish Legacy Champs
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=7641
1st Place - Gencon Legacy Championships
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=22850
4th Place - Gencon Legacy Championships
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=22851
8th Place - Gencon Legacy Championships
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=22852
It actually seems that the only Threshold lists that win run Stifle.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Point taken, but most of the Threshold lists I see at the moment are running Balance/Top and then either Spellsnare or Thoughtseize. If Stifle and Engineered Explosives are in vogue, then 2 Empty the Warrens should be moved to the SB etc.
I guess it's just meta dependent
Why is 3 Diminishing Returns any better than 1 maindeck? It's still ridiculously dependent on Lotus Petal to cast from your hand unless you use Infernal Tutor/LED or Burning Wish/LED, which in either case means the number in your deck doesn't matter.
Hello all,
I'm a TES newbie (that IS my first time trying it) and I have to admit that I just can't seem to reliably run it. The list I'm using is the one from the opening post (this seems a quite recent "reference" list hence probably a good list to start practicing with).
i'll show you the sample hands i'm getting to ask you guys for advice, because frankly they all seem so shitty to me that i'm really starting to wonder if i'm missing something here. (To be honest, the main problem is probably that i have no idea what i should be aiming for given a specific hand, except « playing it until i run out of gas and hope that i’ll find a wincon with enough storm before it happens » or « trying to set up an igg » in a few cases. How is the criticial storm count usually generated ? Is it most often via the help of one igg ? I mean, is it more like 70 % of the time, or more like the occasional thing, like 30 % of the time ?).
I'm just goldfishing. I’ll always pretend I’m on the play, but please feel free to make a distinction between your mulliganing decinsion between on the play and on the draw if needed. These are the ten hands that i'll randomly get from now on, to be as honest as possible. Which means as of right now, I don't even know what they'll be, for you to be as close as what I'm experiencing.
* Sample Hand 1 : Chrome Mox, BWish, BWish, SSG, Rite of flame, Rite of flame, EtW.
My analysis : complete sh*t, right ? no draw, no mana to cast it anyway. Obvious mulligan, right ? (Even if you agree with the conclusion, please tell me the reasons you’d have dismissed this hand if they’re different).
Mulligan into : SSG, Infernal Contract (Draw4), Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Undiscovered Paradise, Cabal Ritual.
What would you do ? If you’d decide to keep this new hand, what’s the win you’d be aiming for to justify this decision ?
* Sample Hand 2 : Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, D. Returns, Tendrils.
My analysis : once again, this is trash right ?
Mulligan into : Gemstone Mine, Chrome Mox, Chrome Mox, SSG, BWish, Cruel Bargain.
Once again, i don’t see what I could expect from such a hand, except maybe hoping to get a way to cast the Cruel Bargain somehow (randomly drawing a Dark or Cabal Ritual). And then I’d really have to draw some good stuff with it.
* Sample Hand 3 : Gemstone, City, LED, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, Ponder.
My analysis : I can’t really complain about mana, but now I’m lacking business spells. Should I hope getting something from the Ponder (i’d be hoping for a contract and/or a way to get a good ol D. Returns). But are the chances high enough ? Would you keep this hand ? I think I probably would (but granted, probably only because i feel like what i’m usually getting is far worse than this).
I tried it.
T1 : Gemstone, Ponder, saw Infernal Contract (D4), Cruel Bargain (D4), Chrome Mox. I chose to not shuffle, knowing I’d get a Draw4 for next turn. Was I right to do this up to this point ?
T2 : City of Brass.
My hand is now Chrome Mox, Infernal Contract (D4), LED, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame. I also know that i have a Cruel Bargain (D4) on top.
I’d go City->Dark Ritual->Cabal Ritual->Infernal Contract, floating B (playing the Cabal with Dark mana so that i keep my multicolored mana options of Gemstone open). Storm count : 3. Am I still right ?
I draw Cruel Bargain (D4) (as expected), Gemstone, Infernal Tutor, Orim’s Chant.
Now, I’d say the correct play would be to go off by tutoring an IGG to add some storm and then tendrils.
So : Playing Gemstone, Tapping for W, Orim’s Chant (Storm 4). Led (Storm 5). Mox imprinting Cruel Bargain (Storm 6). Tapping Gemstone for R, Rite of Flame (Storm 7), floating RRB. Playing Infernal Tutor (Storm 8) with Hellbent to fetch IGG. While IT’s on the sack, sac LED for BBB. Mana floating : RBBB.
(by the way, simple question : if i had an extra card in hand at this point, I would still have had achieved Hellbent on IT’s resolution thanks to LED, thus been able to get IGG, right ?)
Playing IGG (Storm 9). I go get Dark Ritual (i won’t have threshold anymore so I don’t want Cabal), LED, and IT. Playing LED (Storm 10). Tapping Chrome Mox for B, playing Dark Ritual (Storm 11), playing IT (B floating, Storm 12) with Hellbent. Sac LED in response for BBB (BBBB floating), getting Tendrils, Tendrils for 26 life.
Wow, it went right ! :D Still, what would you have done differently ?
* Sample Hand 4 : Gemstone, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Canal Ritual, SSG, Rite of Flame, Orim’s Chant.
My analysis : no draw, no tutor, mulligan.
Mulligan into : Chrome Mox, LED, SSG, Ponder, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor.
My analysis : I can’t cast a simple spell so that would go to trash bin too… am I still right now that mulliganing again would mean getting only 5 cards ? Or should I hope drawing a land to use Ponder ?
* Sample Hand 5 : Gemstone, BWish, Infernal Tutor, Brainstorm, Ponder, Cabal Ritual, Orim’s Chant.
My analysis : I’d keep. I’ll be able to play Ponder on T1 to see what’s coming and getting additional mana.
T1 : Gemstone. Actually, should I play Ponder first and keep Brainstorm for later (thus being able do dig further if needed), or play Brainstorm now and counting on the possibility to Ponder next turn (at the latest) to shuffle what i would be putting back if needed ?
I chose to play Ponder first, seeing LED, IT, Rite of Flame. One LED is great. I chose to not shuffle, and set up the draws so that next turn I’ll have both LED and RoF (with an IT on top).
T2 : Brainstorm, seeing IT, SSG, Orim. Now that’s pretty bad. I guess my only choice now is to Bwish for a Draw4 next turn (which I would pay for with LED). I put IT and Orim on top, which means my hand is now : LED, SSG, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, BWish, IT, Orim’s Chant.
T3 : Drawing Orim as expected. LED (Storm 1). SSG, Rite of Flame, Tapping (and sac’ing) Gemstone for B, Cabal Ritual (Storm 3), BWish for Cruel Bargain, sacrificing LED in response for BBB (Storm 4, BBBBR floating).
Note : I figured i’d better use my Cabal Ritual and lose my ability to generate blue with Gemstone than the opposite. Was it the optimal play ?
Playing Cruel Bargain (Storm 5, BR floating). Drawing Tendrils, Undiscovered Paradise, Gemstone, Infernal Tutor. At this point, i’d have to concede the game.
Did i go wrong somewhere, or was it just « tough luck » ?
* Sample Hand 6 : City, Mox, Mox, SSG, SSG, Ponder, Cruel Bargain.
My analysis : I can use Ponder to help me get the black mana needed to use Cruel Bargain, or to find a tutor… but i don’t know if this is enough to keep it. Since I’m lacking experience, and playing it doesn’t really cost me anything, I chose to play it, but it’s very possible that it’s not the correct choice. Was it ?
T1 : City, Ponder. Seeing LED, LED, Rite of Flame. Neither black mana nor tutor. Now that’s not good at all. Shuffle, and I draw a Ponder. Great…
T2 : Drawing Orim’s Chant. Playing Ponder, seeing Infernal Contract (D4), Lotus Petal, and Dark Ritual. Now that’s what I needed. I draw the Dark Rit and put Lotus on top (maybe i should have doneit the other way in the abstract, but it doesnt really matter here).
T3 : Drawing Lotus as expected. Dark Ritual, Cruel Bargain (8 life, Storm 2). Drawing Infernal Contract (as expected), Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, IT.
My hand is now : Chrome Mox, Chrome Mox, SSG, SSG, Lotus Petal, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, Infernal Contract, Infernal Tutor, Orim’s Chant.
Chrome Mox imprinting SSG (Storm 3). SSG (i chose not to imprint this second one to Chrome Mox, thus helping me reach threshold for the upcoming Cabal Ritual), R floating, 5 cards in Graveyard. Rite of Flame (Storm 4, RR floating). Lotus Petal, sac’ed for B : Storm 5, RRB floating, Threshold. Cabal Ritual (Storm 6), BBBBBR floating. Infernal Contract (BBR floating, Storm 7). Drawing City, Gemstone, RoF, IT.
My hand is now : Gemstone, City, Chrome Mox, RoF, IT, IT, Orim’s Chant. Storm 7, BBR floating, 4 life. In play : one tapped City, untapped Chrome Mox with SGG imprinted.
My only solution is to use everything to do reach Hellbent and IT for a win condition like Tendrils. But I can’t this turn since I have two lands in hand. I’m screwed again
Ok, so in the end it will only be 6 hands, but I’m a bit tired (slept 5 hours last night) and actually typing it out took quite a long time and I’m short on time now. Still, they're about representative of my experience with the deck (heck, this is almost my entire experience with it). And, out of these 6 hands :
-number 2 was an auto-loss (well i didn't try mulliganing to 4...). number 4 also looks like it to me. that's 33 %
-number 5 & 6, while promising, died on me along the way. another 33 %
-number 3 was a win yeah !
-number 1 might, in fact, have been playable (after the mulligan to 6).
What do you guys think ? Have I played optimally, or at least correctly (no blatant mistakes/misplays/bad decisions) ? Then, is this low success rate (1 out 6, maybe 2) (plus, facing no opposing disruption) due to my having had actual bad luck on these few samples ?
Thank you all for your feedback.
Look, I don't have time to discuss every single one now, but you really need to approach the deck differently.
The first hand was good enough.You could build 8 tokens on turn 1(decent, kind of crappy) or waited a turn for an extra spell. I would have kept the 4th hand too. With the 5th hand you could have won with IGGy: instead of the Chant, draw IT, SSG, Rite, tap mine, Cabal ritual, IT finding the 2nd LED, LED, LED, Wish, Sac both, =>IGGy float BB, etc.
You don't always have to combo on the first turn. Waiting a turn or 2 can give you the chance to draw that final ritual.
The most common strategy with TES is to go for a IGGy loop. After that the most common one is to make 8-16 EtW tokens in the first turns. You usually go for EtW if you know it's not likely you will get enough mana for IGGy, have a Wish but no Tutor, or you think you are facing disruption, so you wan't to act as quickly as possible.
I haven't looked at all the plays so I am not sure about the rest but those are also less than average hands. I also don't like the Contracts and don't play them so I am not the best player to tell you how to play with them.
Maybe later I will look more close to your hands and explain how I would play them all.
Hand 1 - Keep that. 8 or 10 tokens on turn 1 depending if you draw or not. That's pretty good.
Hand 2 - Good move to mulligan. No mana other than Rite of Flame.
On that mull, that's tough. You could keep it and hope for a Cabal/Dark Rit, or you can mulligan.
Hand 3 - Nice hand. Ponder is the only quasi-tutor, but you have enough mana to where if you draw a tutor, you should be good to go.
Hand 4 -Good call to mull. The mulligan gave you a nice draw. All you need is 1 more hard mana source (land or a black card) and you can go off turn 3.
Hand 5 - I think it was fine. Good job.
Hand 6 - Ok draw. That double LED was kinda hot, but seeing what you had, that probably wasn't the best choice.
And Matelml is absolutely right in that you don't NEED to win turn 1 all the time. Sometimes you have to wait for turn 2 or 3 to get that kill. It depends on what you're facing. Also, some good advice is to just practice. Know the deck. If you only know a couple ways to win, then that's too bad. The deck has a huge toolbox at your disposal.
Unless you have a lot of pressure to win right away, don't go all out(unless you can guarantee the win). Knowing the deck is really key.
Thank you Matelml & chokin for your input (still, any additional input is of course more than welcome).
Actually, I don't know why you both said that, I never even considered trying to win T1 (given the hands i had at least). Was there something specific in my mulliganing decisions that made it look like that ?
Noted. For some reason I wasn't considering how 8 tokens might still win the game. I was just blinded by the fact that i had no real way to up my storm count (and i've never used etw before so yeah, to me storm 4-5 was kind of mentally labeled "useless" which it actually isn't here). Thanks for making me realize that.
But, what are the chances of success (ie not fizzling) by doing that "blindly" ? I first have to find that source by random drawing... and then, if it's a black card, what would you go get with IT ? A D4 (or an IGG if you were to be lucky enough to find the necessary mana) ?
Thanks. So I guess that means these two fizzles were not due to my being unable to play them correctly ?
I did see that there are always a lot of options (which makes it very interesting to play). Did I miss one at some point ? By "ways to win", you mean that in a very large sense, right ? I mean, there's no additional super tech except than basically chaining spells with possibly a final IGG before playing Tendrils/EtW ?
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