Bingo. You can't consider running Standstill because the card is terrible in the mirror.Originally Posted by menace13
I would say it depends on the meta you are playing in, standstills have helped me in problematic matchups like mono black aggro and junk by helping me recover from removal. But for big tournaments I'd probably go without standstills due to the number of merfolk players right now.
Doesn't it being terrible depend on if they stick a Vial though? If you can keep them off the Vial, they have to break the standstill and the three cards seem kind of good here.
While you make a really fine reason, you have to keep in mind that against the mirror, you will also face opposing Mutavault.
You might say that Wasteland can deal with it, but they also pack their own Wastelands.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Although I think Mental Misstep makes Standstill a hell of a lot more relevant of a card than it had become by about a month ago, I still am happier running Merfolk without Standstill in the limited testing I'm doing these days. I feel like in a deck that uses Standstill, I really want to run some sort of 1cc removal, like Swords, Path, Lightning Bolt, or even Vendetta, in conjunction with MMS (and probably Thoughtseize/ Inquisition of Kozilek), in order to enable Standstill. In this deck, I feel like Standstill is kind of like "yeah, I cut a creature/ a counterspell/ etc. in order to run it, but if I set it up correctly, it could draw me anything-- even more creatures and counterspells!" (This is an exaggeration of course, but Merfolk is just not as well-equipped at setting up broken Standstills compared to something like Deedstill or Dreadstill.)
Also I really feel like Sygg, River Cutthroat might be worth some reevaluation.
IMO, he sucks way less than Cold-Eyed Selkie in the matches that we're seeking to improve. I concede that in the abstract, he's more dependent than Selkie on board position, since he won't be swinging for 3 without help. But I like how Sygg tends to be better against decks that don't run Islands and/or have dudes that we need to occasionally block. Plus Selkie dies to just about anything, costsmore, and doesn't afford any piratical style-points. And in general if I'm not doing 3 or more damage a turn with this deck, it means that there's something keeping me from executing my gameplan.
Basically, I think Sygg is sort of similar to Standstill in creature form: it's only really likely to draw you some cards if you have board presence and can pressure your opponent. However, unlike Standstill he's a Merfolk (ie "receives pump bonuses and swings for damage"), and he doesn't depend on having a favorable board position to be able to play him. So even if you don't draw cards off him, you can drop him regardless of board position and start turning him sideways, whereas that Standstill could have been sitting in your hand, "waiting for a FoW to pitch it to" (or maybe just being dead weight.)
In conclusion, I think he could be decent, and I think he's honestly less awkward than either running Standstill in this deck or trying to make Dark Confidant work.
Last edited by DukeDemonKn1ght; 05-21-2011 at 06:23 AM.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
OK. These reasons for not using Standstill are similar to my own experiences lately - frustration. But I do not see how that leads to Dark Confidant. I am more likely to try out something like Cold-Eyed Selkie, Sygg, or even just more disruption in that spot without the need for Underground Sea and such. At any rate, it is worth waiting to see how good MMS is going to affect that.
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I prefer to run more lords/disruption in place of Standstill: the goal of the deck is to kill the opponent as fast as possible while preventing him from playing anything too dangeorus.
So the deck packs a number of creatures and of counters.
I prefer to increase the number of threats and counters instead of using a draw engine (and a circumstantial one at that), since that may result in a loss of tempo and, eventually, loosing the game.
With this in mind, the best Drawing engine we have is silvergill: a threat AND card advantage, which is synergic with the rest of the deck. So I think that Sygg may be worth a test, although his legendary status concernes me a bit.
Maybe I'll swap a pair of sovereing out for Sygg.
Greetings.
Being legendary hurts Sygg, and I really think 2 would be the maximum number to run for this reason. But even despite his drawbacks (which are certainly there), I think he has amazing potential just by being a Merfolk that can passively draw extra cards.
I probably wouldn't cut any Adepts to run him though, because part of what makes him good is that he adds additional redundancy to your full set of Adepts (since he's a creature who can potentially replace himself with a free card(s)). Adept kind of just does this job better 95% of the time though, so for that reason I think I would cut a Cursecatcher, or a Sovereign, or a Daze, or something like that...
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Not being amazing hurts Sygg, not the fact that he's legendary.
He, much like Selkie and all other cutesy characters Merfolk players want to pack, fail completely, in large part due to the fact that Merfolk isn't a typical blue deck. It doesn't get to see as many cards as other blue decks and, in large part due to its redundancy, it doesn't care. It's very aggressive and cares less about the number of cards so much as the board position.
Sygg's competition is too strong. If there were spots, there are sixteen cards the deck can play that all pump other Merfolk and provide evasion in some form in the process. Additionally, there are now twelve free counters to work with, a 2/1 guy who draws a card once he hits play, and Cursecatcher, who remains the sexiest 1-drop Merfolk you can run. Plus you've got Kira, Sower, Jitte, and Standstill, all campaigning for the last couple spots.
Taco is right Sygg and Selkie are not doing anything better than Sovereign or the Merfs already in the deck. Selkie needs a Island and a Lord/Jitte to be good or it's an Ophidian and blows vs non Island decks and combat. Sygg being active is easier to do vs non blue, but Sovereign is better there too. I think either of them might be okay as a singelton with Standstill looking even less appealing with the number of Merfolk decks in the top spots, although Not as useful as Kira, Lords or Sowers.
The match ups where Standstill is good is where Selkie makes an impact and any Lord or Kira for Sygg's match ups do more. Llawan and Jitte cover the mirror better than both.
Would Vendilion Clique merit inclusion into Merfolk? I see a few lists run it, but they're few and far between.
After another week of testing, I am in complete agreement with Menace13. Dark Confidant was pretty good, but I am not sure it's worth splashing black for when we can answer the same issues with 2 jitte/2 sower in the flex slots. I moved kira's to the board as I usually played Kira/sower in flex slots. It felt much more synergistic with jitte, as opposed to situational with bob . I was also running one sygg over a fourth coralhelm commander. Jitte was an all star as usual, Controlling their bobs and being able to contend with goyf or just island walking-pump. Sower was usually a blow out or pitch to Fow if conditions weren't right. It felt that jitte was also better as it actually helps in G1 vs Zoo. Kira's in the board was also nice because it really only came in against Junk/zoo.
Another idea from testing was phyrexian revoker in the board with the rise of Jace/standstill. I apoligize if this has been talked about before. I didn't see it. He comes in on vial at 2 and is immune to MM. Has anyone been testing it? Yes he get hits by removal, but the deck has 16 counter spells. He can either be immune to them or bring their total effective counters to 12. Where pithing needle get hits by everything.
Edit: For those who had not seen my previous post, We were testing for the mirror and against bob/hymn to tourach decks
So, why is nobody talking about the Merfolk list that got 8th place at BoM?
Is it considered a bad list or s.th.?
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...7&iddeck=44560
Kind of perfect to me.
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My current list looks almost like that with these difference:
-1 Island, -1 Daze, +2 Spell Pierce. So far it's working fine. MM does make Standstill better.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
You're only running eleven Islands? How is that working for you? Also, I don't think you should cut Daze with all the Mental Missteps running around, you need to protect your Ęther Vials.
3 fish decks in the top 16 this week. Nothing about the lists looked particularly interesting except the inclusion of dismember. I've been playing with some in my side and they have tested great, not surprised it is starting to see 2-3 sideboard slots. I think a mix of dismember and submerge is pretty solid in the sb.
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
I played the merfolk that placed 11th at that particular scg. I think i would have been much happier if I had access to the dismembers. I also never saw the submerges I sbed in during my matches, but at least dismember is good in the mirror as well. I particularly liked Mikes list. It beat me 2-1 round 2 and he was undefeated in the swiss, he also saw him give that MUC winner his only match loss of the day (thanks to very good draws and pithing needle, and tight play of course). The other match I lost was vs team america rnd 8. All the x-1s had to play it out.. which was pretty awkward (i was 6 on standings, i think my opp was 4). My curse of failing in the last round continues...I will get that monkey off my back soon enough.
I couldn't bare to play without at least some graveyard hate so I decided to go with surgical extraction and I was very pleased with it. I blew out a high tide opponent when targeting their high tide, and energy flux and extraction neutered a pair of u/r painter opponents round 6 and 7... i kept sidboarding it in vs team america which may have been the wrong call (hoping i could disrupt their fragile manabase or limited win cons, but never recieved the opportunity to)
Rnd 1: Merfolk (2-1)
Rnd 2: Merfolk (1-2) he made top 8, tough one mike, you will break the curse and make top4 next time.
Rnd 3: High Tide (2-1)
Rnd 4: Team America (2-1)... played confidants
Rnd 5: Merfolk (2-0)
Rnd 6: U/R Painter (2-0)
Rnd 7: U/R Painter (2-0) he made top 16 as well
Rnd 8: Team America (0-2) Adam Turk played impressively well, both games were VERY close battles though. He made top 4..... didnt play confidants
I plan on running Merfolk at GP Providence and here is the list I am playing:
4x Cursecatcher
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Coralhelm Commander
4x Merrow Reejerey
2x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1x Merfolk Sovereigns
4x Aether Vial
4x Mental Misstep
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
13x Islands
4x Mutavault
4x Wastelands
Basically, I've shaved the Factory for the Sovereigns. I go back and forth on that decision all the time. I like Kira in the main, people talk about how they don't think it improves the Junk matchup enough to be valued over Jitte, but my experience has been otherwise, although I'm sure it's been a small sample size.
What I really want to discuss is the sideboard. I want to run the following:
3x Spell Snare
3x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Submerge
3x Misdirection
2x Echoing Truth
I am interested in what people sideboard out in certain matchups.
What do you sideboard out in the Mirror? Clearly Llawan and Jitte come in for the mirror, and I have heard of Echoing Truth coming in here as well. What do people sideboard out? Lord of Atlantis and some number of the Dazes or Forces? Do you just lean on Misstep to handle Vial or do you board them out and lean on Daze/Force? Does this change on the play vs. draw?
I really like Misdirection. People rarely play around it and I don't expect that to change, even after the MUC performance at SCG Louisville. Nothing is more satisfying that Misdirecting a Hymn to Tourach, which is one of the more powerful spells in legacy and one that hurts our deck when it resolves because of the limited options for card advantage in our list. I've even used it against High Tide to Misdirection a Turnabout to stop the combo.
I like Spell Snare against Affinity and B/W - but I could be convinced to cut this card.
As of now my sideboard and configuration has chosen to punt the Dredge matchup, except for Echoing Truth for Zombie Tokens or Ichorids.
Submerge and Jitte come in against Zoo and Junk. Those two plus Misdirection comes in against Team America.
Basically, I want to know what people think should come out in these various matchups. Am I always cutting Kira and the Sovereigns and then a Daze or two? Obviously there are some matchups where Kira shines, which is why she's in the deck, and she stays in then. Then there are obviously times when Misstep can come out, like against Affinity.
Any help or a link to a comprehensive sideboarding guide that I can use for guidance would be appreciated!
Good luck to everyone traveling to GP Providence this weekend!
played against 3 fish decks huh? I've been considering just running jitte main in prep for facing the mirror a decent amount at the GP but it is so lackluster in some cases.
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
@stickpiano: For the mirror I would say you board out 3 of the lord of atlantis and bring in your llawans in this slot. It leaves you will one lord as a finisher and doesnt pump their guys.
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