I speak as a long time goblins player here, but i think my opinion can be useful also in this thread.
You seem to define goblin as a pure aggro deck, and this is not true. Goblins, like merfolk, is aggro - control. While merfolks mostly play the control role with counterspells, goblins do it with mana denial + creature removal. The tendency you are noticing in merfolk (eliminating most of the control elements), is what i am noticing in the goblins thread. I see more and more lists cutting rishadan ports and mogg war marshal to add warren instigators and chrome moxes speeding the deck up towards an aggro direction.
I honestly don't like this because is difficult for pure aggro decks to be competitive in legacy, but the main reason of this changes is that legacy is becoming faster and faster. Mana denial is getting worse as new good one drops and two drops get printed (main example is deathrite shaman), and a lot of decks now operate well with just two lands. It is becoming difficult to play an aggro control game with vial on board and trying to deny mana with wasteland , rishadan port or using taxing counters like daze.
It's bitter to say, but maybe vial decks could become obsolete over the years.
I can understand why it is all getting cut. It is because of crazy mana ramp pushing everything out faster.
Daze quickly becomes obsolete after a few turns. People will play around it.
So lets say they play around it: and you decide to punish them with Wasteland. Wasteland you land. Great. Now I'm stuck on one land. Now I'll daze your dude because I wastelanded you so I could do this. Well, now you've lost a creature... and I have NO land in play, or if I'm on the play, I might have one land in play left.
This is FINE if you have a vial. But what if you don't have a vial? Now you're behind, especially if you were on the draw. Next turn, they'll have one more land than you because they just had one blown up, whereas you blew up a land AND returned one to your hand. And how often do you get a vial? Not all the time, just sometimes. If you then proceed to draw a vial, you're as good as dead.
I love aether vial, but I am also hate drawing it again. I can see why people are moving to remove it, but at the same time if I start with it is incredibly powerful.
This is the exact reason standstill doesn't work for me: combo? Great. Anything else? God no, most people get a relevant dude out faster. We can proceed to swarm but we need to be playing things all the time, we can't go T1 cursecatcher, then go T1 delver and we go T2 standstill go. They'll just play their superior delver and beat us with a 3/2 flier...
Will Merfolk become obsolete? Probably. I feel it is much weaker than other decks. But it is my chosen deck to play so I'm just going to play it anyway
I think Daze and wasteland (and rishadan port, for goblin's side) are getting bad because of deathrite shaman: if the opponent have a turn 1 DRS it invalidates daze and wasteland as mana denial.
Sure, if they keep it open for paying for daze you can say you are slowing them, but it also means that all of their plays that you could daze before (like goyf T2 for example) are now going to resolve: that renders daze unuseful.
And if you're asking how much play does DRS see, actually it's the tenth most played card in legacy and the most played creature:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/topcards?format=LE&meta=39
Daze it's still good against combo decks, but right now the meta is full of tempo and midrange decks: maybe it can go to the side if you prefer it over spell pierce/swan song/flusterstorm.
Ignorance is strength
Wasteland is never truly bad, but right now most of the 3 color decks that are weak to wasteland are also playing DRS. Without cards like bolt or swords to plowshares to deal with DRS, destroying a land or two doesn't really set them back that much. As for daze it was always pretty mediocre, except it has good synergy with wasteland. Daze is bad after turns 2 or 3 and is easy enough to play around unless you are putting on enough pressure. Combo decks can mostly ignore daze thanks to all the fast mana effects they generally play, and you only beat them when you also are swinging for 15 on turn 4 in those games cursecatcher is frequently sufficient disruption. I have found that the more often you pull off a start like that, the better you do, and it can rarely be done without a vial. Therefore it makes sense to maximize the number of aggro starts by cutting all the situational cards.
RUG delver on one hand can win with a single land in play therefore a single wasteland has always been mediocre against them. They are a successful mana denial tempo deck because they also play stifle, bolt and enough deck manipulation to get rid of the situtational cards when they are bad. All that combined with only playing 12 very efficient creatures, makes them successful.
Merfolk on the other hand cannot dilute it's tribal strategy and can therefore only run a minimal disruption suite. Merfolk has always been an aggro deck, and never a true aggro-control deck, it just played the wasteland/daze package because that was a necessary evil in legacy, and can lead to free wins. As we get more and more powerful merfolk we can start to cut the situational disruption cards and become a more streamlined aggro deck.
as for standstill TNN instantly replaced it, because why bother drawing 3 cards when you already have a hard to answer threat that will win you the game on it's own.
I don't think merfolk will ever be obsolete as long as they keep printing powerful creatures with the merfolk creature type
Is merfolk the best tempo deck? no
Is merfolk the best vial deck? no
Is merfolk the best tribal deck? no
Is merfolk the best TNN deck? no
but I do think it is the best aggro deck in legacy, you cannot be a fair deck in legacy without disruption so it is not unreasonable to believe that a good aggro deck in legacy could be mono blue.
I like my matchups against tempo decks, pure control, and combo decks thanks to speed and light disruption
I don't like my matchups against midrange decks like all the stoneforge decks, which is why I don't think merfolk will ever be the best deck in legacy. However, I think TNN and some sideboard help can make it reasonable, which is why I plan on sticking with my fish for the time being.
I would actually say that Daze is good against all decks EXCEPT for combo, because most combo players have built their deck to be able to play around it. The matchups where it really shines are tempo (because it's free and they have fewer lands) and midrange because they have lots of expensive spells. But my question isn't why certain cards are becoming good or bad, it's why is the deck being pushed from being an aggro-control deck to a straight aggro deck? If Daze is bad, why not replace it with control cards that actually do something you need done? Splash red for Lightning Bolt? Splash white for Swords to Plowshares. If you want to keep it mono-blue, then at least add in cards that don't simply push the deck in one direction; put in flexible cards that can allow you to play both aggro and control roles, depending on what you need to do. If we devolve into a mono-blue aggro deck, it becomes very simple to beat us because we're not presenting any alternative gameplans that the enemy has to plan for.
Or, and here's a radical idea, if you have cards that are good to draw at some points in the game and bad to draw at others, PLAY BRAINSTORM. Being able to Brainstorm away a dead Aether Vial and Daze and drawing into two Merfolk late in the game is really pretty incredible. The statement that all of Merfolk's cards are identical so Brainstorm isn't great is ridiculous; of course all of Merfolk's cards aren't identical. We only have so many Aether Vials and so many Force of Wills and so many True-Name Nemesis. And sometimes we need exactly one of those cards, and sometimes we need to get rid of those cards. Brainstorm only messes with our curve if you play it in such a way that it messes with the curve.
I have played with Brainstorm in this deck for the better part of a year now, and I find that it makes me more agile and better able to adapt to what the opponent is doing. It is absolutely true that if you build your deck with 20 lands and 30 creatures that you're not going to see much benefit from Brainstorm, but I question why you would ever want to build your deck that way. You put yourself in topdeck mode very quickly, you make yourself overly vulnerable to removal of all kinds, and you lose a lot of points in the combo matchups which are traditionally pretty good.
Decklist?
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
Please post your decklist, thus has been something I have been considering and talking about for a LONG time. I want to know the minimum fetchlands required since I play in a blood moon meta.
Also, to people that would get rid of daze, does that mean then that you find yourself having to hold up counter magic mana? I find that really slows me down since we lack 1 mana creatures. If getting rid of daze, I think you should be playing cosi trickster so that on t2 you can both play a dude AND counter with spell pierce or what have you
It's always evolving but this is where I'm at right now:
6 Island
7 Blue fetchlands
3 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Silvergill Adept
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Phantasmal Image
4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Spell Pierce
3 Standstill
SB:
1 Envelop
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 True-Name Nemesis
4 Submerge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Umezawa's Jitte
The Spell Pierce and Standstill are the flex spots. I've trimmed on Daze and Mutavault because they're situational and I'd rather play 4 Wasteland than 4 Mutavault (and I think 13 blue sources are a must), and the one-of Spell Pierce is pretty much exactly what I want with that slot. I played a similar list (-3 Standstill, +3 Gitaxian Probe which are awesome, and then a little different sideboard) at SCG St. Louis and the only thing I lost to was a turn 1 Delver of Secrets, which I'm still searching for a good answer for. Unfortunately I faced 3 Delver decks and lost all of those matches, again based on being unable to deal with Delver of Secrets backed up by enough removal to slow me down so I couldn't effectively race. But in that tournament I lost to some guy playing UWR Delver, Eric Rill (BUG Delver) and Kenny Castor (RUG Delver) and beat Chris Van-Meter (BUG Plainswalkers), along with a burn deck, a Dredge deck and a no-show. I'm still looking for a good answer to Delver, which may well be a red splash for Lightning Bolt and Red Elemental Blast or a white splash for Swords to Plowshares and stronger SB cards, but I'm trying out this sideboard for now because fetching out nothing but basic Islands just beats some decks.
This has inspired me to try turning my deck into a brainstorm deck for the next local tournament this week. I'll see how it goes, I've never played with brainstorm before. I am also going to sideboard aggressively against affinity (I know it isn't the smartest decision, but it would be fun to win that match-up!) and goblins.
4 x Cursecatcher
4 x Silvergill Adept
4 x Master of the Pearl Trident
4 x Lord of Atlantis
4 x Phantasmal Image
4 x True-Name Nemesis
(= 24 creatures. I'm really, really happy with this creature base. Especially 4 x TNN and 4 x PI. Phantasmal Image is such a good general utility card)
4 x Aether Vial
4 x Daze
4 x Force of Will
4 x Brainstorm
= 16 other spells
7 x Blue fetchlands
4 x Mutavault
9 x Island
= 20 land
Sideboard
3 x Energy flux
3 x Jitte
3 x Swan Song
3 x Tormod's Crypt
1 x Manriki
2 x Dismember
Note, that sideboard is for my local meta. Otherwise there is no way you'd catch me playing 3 x Energy Flux or 3 x Jitte.
In some metas, it might be even worth main decking 1 x manriki IMHO if you are running 4 x Phantasmal Image.
I would seriously suggest that if you would like to get a feel for Brainstorm in this deck, you play my list, at least for a little while, before you start making changes. You will not need nearly that many sideboard cards in a Brainstorm deck, and your creature count can go down as well because you're going to be cantripping into guys. The 3 True-Name Nemesis/2 Phantasmal Image package is exceptional as it keeps the curve low and still gives you enough TNN for when you need it, and being able to board in the fourth TNN gives you something to do against the fair matchups. Also, it seems silly to play Daze without Wasteland. If you cut Wasteland, you should probably not bother with Daze as it gets much worse much faster.
Hmm, you might be right. I've never played with brainstorm so I don't know what it is like. I'd love to play with my Wasteland again.Originally Posted by benthetenor
When versing a blood moon deck, do you have any recommendations on the sorts of hands to keep? Because previously I was all set against them. But with this list, if I go second, they T1 blood moon me and suddenly my sac lands aren't so great any more! I guess I don't keep a hand unless it has at least 1 Island, 1 FOW and/or an Aether Vial if going second?
Also: how did you feel about the suggestion of dismember vs. delver?
It seems highly unlikely that any one would actually board in/leave in blood moon against mono-blue. Painter may do it blindly game one, but that's a pretty bad match up anyway...
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
For people dropping Daze - what are you playing in its place?
I am finding the combo match-up hard. 8 Counters (4 FOW, 4 Daze) is barely enough for game 1, and it really isn't enough at all, I get lucky if I win against combo. They just play ramp and avoid my taxing counters, or they wait until they have 2 counters in hand. They play S&T. I FOW it. They FOW it. I daze it. They counter it back - and win. Cursecatcher is awesome but it still isn't enough. This is even more likely to happen with Reanimator, who has T2 plays more often.
So: play harder counters, right? Problem: they cost mana. If I have a vial, and they are starting, I have to take a huge risk on T1 and just jam my vial and hope they don't T2 S&T/Reanimate as having only one free counter (FOW) lessens the chances of me opening with it.
If I don't have a vial, or a free counter, then on T2 I have to not play a dude (or only play a cursecatcher) because it is too risky otherwise.
Basically: I usually win these by being sneaky, especially with Phantasmal Image. Copy their Griselbrand, or vial in a copy of their Emrakul or whatever. This works so much better than trying furiously to win the counter war.
This is supposed to be my easiest matchup, but I'm regularly losing to their numerous counters and my slow gameplan because I'm trying to maintain the ability to counter their stuff. What am I doing wrong? Is there a better form of disruption vs. combo like with the Phantasmal Image tricks I can do to overcome these issues?
i'm starting to think that since people do not run wastelands, take the dazes out for
13 islands
4 mutavaults
3 caverns
4 fow
4 swan songs
Why swan over Pierce?
“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle".
- Albert Einstein
Because its a hard counter that has no real downside since almost always you are the aggressor.
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
If we can keep our lords alive, theres nothing to be afraid of in a 2/2 flying stupid bird.
We can out race them no matter what. To ensure we counter the most problematic cards that people throw at us would be swan song. Since we are not wasting people's lands, spell pierce can easily be played around.
So the next question, what is this deck afraid of? cheap instant removals. We are not afraid of jace, or moats, or other enchantments.
So how do you play with it? Do you always keep 1 blue open when playing combo?
I find most of this to be true as well. It starts to play extremely linearly too, with a little additional weakness to combo. It does become something to deal with though once it has gone more aggro. Some pretty explosive starts are possible in this build. I even tested a couple of Nykthos in it to make it even more explosive, but it was a bit slow to matter and not much to ramp into when you have a Vial or two down and emptied your hand of creatures quickly. No need to delay getting that TNN down. Not to mention Nykthos weaking Daze further. I question the value of 4 Daze some, but I do like using it for the acceleration trick with Cavern of Souls if all else fails. And I don't want to take out so many counters as to be a joke to combo.
The midrange and Stoneforge Mystic matchups are still wretched. I find the Phantasm copy of Stoneforge for Manriki-Gusari to be slightly more useful than boarding in a Jitte, and I think maindeck Jitte often proves slow. Carry Away could be useful in the sideboard but I haven't found room for it without weakening combo and grave matchups. I would like to make room for 2 Dismember maindeck, but not sure it is worth going to three Vial or 3 Daze. I have toyed around with a 2 of Tidal Warrior in the maindeck which has often proven good enough that a third in the board could even replace a Submerge.
If you are finding your weakness to be efficient, one-for-one removal, then the best answer that Merfolk has (and has always had) is Standstill, since it will turn their one-for-ones into poor plays that they probably still have to make. If they bolt a Lord, for instance, with a Standstill on the board, you end up +1 card and they end up -1 card, even accounting for the cards you invested in the creature and the Standstill. It's a +2 swing in card advantage that will put you firmly in the driver's seat and probably win you the game, and if you can manage to do it twice, you will almost certainly win. It's the equivalent of a 3-for-1 that you don't really have to do much to set up. You lose tempo, but that's a pretty weak reason to not play it since we're already going to be the deck that's ahead on tempo if they are taking the control role.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote