Krosan Grip is normally better than seal, however you can't preemptively cast Krosan Grip if you have the mana open, you have to play it in response. The nice thing about seal is that if you play it before they play standstill they will have to remove it first before trying to resolve a still.
I see many positives to Seal in this particular deck, although Grip's split second trumps Seal's ability to (a.) feed Goyf, (b.) play on turn 2, then no commitment afterwards, (c.) play as a proactive removal spell essentially, and (d.) fit in this deck's ultra low mana curve. Grip is just that good.
I can definitely see how awesome it'd be to cast turn 1 Thoughtseize (snatching FoW), then turn 2 Seal if you're playing against a Standstill player, but it doesn't always happen like that. Also, against Thresh, they're very good against defending early, and I'd like to topdeck a Grip over Seal if they've already gotten CounterTop online, active Shackles, etc.
In almost every situation other than you being on the play and casting Turn 1 disruption, Turn 2 Seal, Grip is better at getting you out of a tight spot if your opponent happened to topdeck and play a bomb (Engineered Explosives, Deed, Counterbalance, Shackles, Survival, etc).
True, Grip is more reactive and costs 1 more mana, but the ability to play it in response and it almost being guaranteed to resolve is huge in combating Sui's inherent weakness; artifact & enchantment removal.
A very good build, Congrats.
What do you think of Cursed Scroll in place of Seal?
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
It think too many decks are running enchantments/artifacts not to maindeck removal for it. One well timed Deed or E.E. or even Shackles can dramatically swing the game in your opponent's favor. You want to have a way out of every situation re: enchantments/artifacts. Green gives you that w/ Grip/Seal. The reason Cursed Scroll works in Sui Black is (a.) it gets around black hate, and (b.) Sui uses more utility creatures and less beef to win.
Nightwolf - Do you ever run out of steam with this deck? You have no Bob or Cursed Scroll which means no way of generating extra card advantage.
Yeah, someone uses Snuff Out!! Granted, I mainly advocated its use because it dodges Counterbalance, but also, it's damn cheap!
Not really, the threats in the deck are very good on their own and very hard to deal with when being hit by disruption. It seems that my opponents would be struggling to deal with tombstalker while their hand/land was being blown up, would finally do it, then I'd drop a tarmogoyf. Then they'd finally answer goyf and I'd drop shade, etc. The deck does not win by putting more cards in your hand than your opponent, it wins by abusing early game tempo and playing very hard to deal with threats. Bob does not swing through anything and I don't like holding back just to draw extra cards when my opponent could be setting up wrath/shackles or counterbalance, for instance.
Edit: I have not dismissed scroll, I just think seal is a better call right now.
they haunt minds...
I really like this deck! I plan to play this soon at the next big legacy event I head to. The only change I would/will make is the switch from Seal to Grip. In my eyes the match up where it means the most is def thresh with their Counterbalance engine and that deck runs stifle which totally owns the seal. The list just looks so elegant. I am drooling to play this damn thing.
I would recommend it, it is definitely lots of fun. As far as seal vs grip, I stated in the description my reasoning for running seal. I think that slot is pretty open, though, so grip may be just fine. Crime/punishment is also a consideration I am making for some metagames, and pithing needle may actually be good here as well.
they haunt minds...
I'm also considering running Sylvan Library in that spot to help out the draws later on. Seems much better than confidant.
Do you actually believe the garbage you say? There are valid reasons to run one over the other. And there are good reasons why Seal is better than Krosan Grip in Eva Green.
1. Seal spells in general are very good in decks that intend to use most of their mana during their own turn.
- between sinkhole, Hymn, Thoughtseize, Shade (activations), casting creature spells and wasteland (using up land drops) Eva Green has little opportunity to leave 2G open during the opponents turn. Why do you think Eva Green runs Snuff Out? Seal is run for the same reason, so Eva Green can maximize the use of the main phase.
Saying Eva Green instead of "the deck" is much more entertaining . If only Eva Green played magic.
But you're (a.) relying on resolving a Seal before your opponent can resolve his bomb enchantment/artifact, (b.) relying on the Seal activation not being Stifled, and (c.) having Seal do what it was actually intended to do; stop enchantments/artifacts from being effective (this doesn't always happen due to responses to Seal activation). Grip doesn't care at all about these conditions that Seal, in order to match Grip's ultimate effectiveness, needs to meet. Grip is also a much better topdeck than Seal, especially if a Shackles/Deed/EE/Moat/etc slipped through your moderate discard suite (LD vs. Thresh and Landstill usually is not effective in the long run).
Like nitewolf said, he considers that 3x Seal slot to be a meta slot. If you see a lot of Landstill/MUC/Thresh, Grip would be better. If all you're using Seal for is to pop your opponent's equipment, then Seal would probably be the smarter choice. Overall, Grip > Seal. And in this deck, even with it's desire to use the main phase every turn, Seal only is equal to Grip if it meets certain game-state requirements and conditions; Grip does not carry any game-state requirements other than having 2G available.
How about this, if you want to play seal play seal, if you like grip play grip. If you like Braids, Cabal Minion play Braids, Cabal Minion.
I can say with 100% certainty that you're wrong about Grip > Seal in Eva Green in a (BHWC)Landstill/MUC/Thresh Meta. I've been bent over the barrel more times than I care to remember playing BHWC Landstill against this deck in a effort to help Dan and Anwar make the choices on which they're decided. The beauty of Seal of Primordium against all 3 of those decks is that Seal becomes a "fire and forget" card. You play it and it's there for whenever you want it. Quite often, that's the right play when you're playing Eva Green. Landstill won't play Deed unless they can immediately activate it for two, Landstill will rarely play a Standstill until they can remove Seal, same goes for ***** decks running Counterbalance. MUC usually runs EE and Powder Keg as removal and Seal of Primordium can usually destroy those cards before they can be activated to remove one of Eva's creatures. I'm not sure why y'all are so high on Krosan Grip in this deck, maybe Virginia is missing something and it needs to be investigate further, but against those decks, Seal is more excellent than you give it credit for.
Arsenal, you can always resolve a Seal after one of those "bomb enchantment/artifact". Speaking of which, why would drawing it after something likeOriginally Posted by Arsenal
be so terrible? Krosan Grip may be a better topdeck because it's uncounterable, but you're still not going to be able to play Krosan Grip on Deed or EE if they activate before passing priority. In the case of Shackles and Moat, there's nothing wrong with playing Seal after those cards have resolved. Krosan Grip may be uncounterable and Seal can be Stifled, but I don't think that means Krosan Grip is "much better".Originally Posted by Arsenal
That certainly depends on the Landstill and Thresh build. If either build is running a bunch of Basic land, then you're probably right, but if you're playing a bunch of non-Basics, you'd better believe Eva Green will feast on your manabase and disrupt you long enough to win. But LD strategy against Landstill and ***** probably reserved for a different time and place. I will say that Deadguy, Red Death, and Eva Green have seen plenty of success by disrupting Lands and Hands.Originally Posted by Arsenal
@URABAHN
How is drawing and playing your Seal a good play when your opponent has an active CounterTop? How is playing and resolving a Seal, only to have it Stifled when your opponent drops his Shackles, a good play? We could go on forever with examples of how Grip > Seal or Seal > Grip (with more examples for the former), but this was my ultimate point; Seal is far more dependant on game-state requirements to be effective, while Grip has ZERO game-state requirements for it to be EQUALLY effective.
Also, you claim that you can always resolve a Seal after your opponent has played their bomb enchantment/artifact. An active CounterTop says otherwise. Also, who says that your Seal will even see play if you're playing against blue-based control and traditional counters?
I would like to point out that if the Threshold deck DOES play Stifle, how is Seal a better target than say a Wasteland, or a hit from a Hyppie? Or, if it IS Threshold, usually Stifle is used early to counter Fetchlands. I don't even remotely understand the unreasoning fear of Stifle. First off, why are you even worried about it? Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, and Hypnotic Specter all do a fine job of keeping annoying enchantments/artifacts off the table, and should one stick, it's still troublesome dealing with the things that you can't stop (i.e. Tombstalker vs. Counterbalance, or Tarmogoyf vs. an unpowered Shackles). Seal is better in this deck than Grip. I would recommend taking us at our word for the time being, while you test it out yourselves. Sure, there will be times where you really wish it was Grip, but there are also going to be times when the reverse is true. Honestly, Dan and Anwar put so much work into this deck that I'd at LEAST give them the benefit of the doubt. How about we give that a try?
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