Page 1 of 11 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 214

Thread: [CaNG - WINNER!] MossNought

  1. #1
    Member
    iOWN's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2006
    Location

    Worcester/Boston, MA
    Posts

    447

    [CaNG - WINNER!] MossNought

    MossNought

    I. History

    My first attempt at brainstorming for CaNG was along these lines: What "good new deck"? The format is old, and the cardpool rarely changes. Lorwyn is empty and all of it's cards have been discovered. But what about Phyrexian Dreadnought? A 12/12 Trampler is hard to deal with, and surely has some larger place in the format.

    So I began working on a Greater Good deck, which aimed to chain Dreadnoughts into fast mana, Berserk, and Fling. After I fiddled with the list, it contained 8 Spirit Guides, Lotus Petals, Berserks, Flings, Kamigawa Dragons, Reanimate, and Mosswort Bridge. Mosswort Bridge opened a potential turn 2 win.

    Turn 1, Mosswort. Turn 2, Dreadnought, Spirit Guide, activate my trap card, Greater Good, commence combo-age.

    Another synergy within this shell was using Mosswort Bridge to "Hide" a Kokusho or Yosei. You could then cast Dreadnought, freecast the Dragon, and sacrifice them both, which gave a nice big effect (particularly Yosei).

    However, when I showed the deck to my friend, we noted that it was somewhat inconsistent and poorly protected. The combo took too many slots, and the few Discard spells I ran didn't win the Threshold match in the least. Around this time, it hit us. Rather than using the Bridge combo to sacrifice Yosei, we could win the game! Two words: Protean Hulk.


    II. The List

    Mana
    4 Mosswort Bridge
    2 Island
    4 Tropical Island
    4 Underground Sea
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Flooded Strand

    Meat
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Protean Hulk

    Combo
    1 Dracoplasm
    1 Volrath's Shapeshifter
    1 Flame-Kin Zealot

    Protection
    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    4 Stifle

    Other
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Lim-Dul's Vault
    2 Pernicious Deed


    Side
    3 Counterbalance
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Hydroblast
    3 Pithing Needle
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Academy Ruins


    *double-take*

    Wha-- is that Flash?! I knew it seemed familiar!

    Actually, no it's not. Hulk Flash is a combo that recquires the resolution of a 2cc Blue Instant to win the game. MossNought is a two-and-a-half card combo that recquires 1G mana, plus a comes-into-play-tapped land.

    The distinction has been made.


    III. Strategy

    a. The Hulk Win
    1. Play Mosswort Bridge, and remove Protean Hulk with the Hideaway ability. For this to work, Protean Hulk must be one of the top four cards in your library, and not in your hand. Mosswort Bridge is tapped, meaning you cannot do anything else until next turn.

    How to accomplish: Mosswort Bridge + Protean Hulk is the most tedious, yet safest, part of the combo to set up. Mosswort Bridge does not have a direct tutor, but can be obtained through Brainstorm or Lim-Dul's Vault (LDV). Through LDV, it is quite possible to get both Mosswort Bridge and Protean Hulk, enabling this part of your combo by the next turn. You can also find Protean Hulk via Worldly Tutor, and Mosswort Bridge on the same turn. If Hulk happens to be in your hand, you can use Brainstorm to put it back.

    What to watch for: Mosswort Bridge is vulnerable until your next turn. If you are playing against a deck with Wasteland, protection in the form of Stifle or Pithing Needle may be necessary.

    2. Cast Phyrexian Dreadnought. Once it resolves, activate Mosswort Bridge without passing priority, and play Protean Hulk for free. Sacrifice both Hulk and Dreadnought to Dreadnought's CiP ability.

    What to watch for: Countermagic can play a large part here, because if they want to counter something, it will either be Dreadnought or Hulk. Once you play Hulk, they can Swords to Plowshares either Hulk or Dreadnought. Phyrexian Dreadnought can also be killed in response to the Bridge activation, which will effectively stop you from comboing, so prepare for artifact hate and Swords to Plowshares.

    3. Win.

    How to accomplish: Upon the resolution of Protean Hulk's leaves-play trigger, search for Dreadnought, Dreadnought, Dreadnought, and Volrath's Shapeshifter. Sacrifice one Dreadnought and Shapeshifter (Hulk) to another Dreadnought. Search for Dracoplasm and Flame-kin Zealot. As Dracoplasm comes into play, sacrifice either one or two Dreadnoughts, and proceed to swing for 25+. If you only have two Dreadnoughts, instead find Tarmogoyf and Flamekin Zealot off of the second Hulk trigger. (First route results in either a 25/25 Flyer, or a 13/13 Trample and a 13/13 Flyer. Second route results in a 13/13 Trample, a big 'Goyf, and a 3/3.)

    What to watch for: Swords to Plowshares isn't relevant here for multiple reasons. One, they probably used it earlier on in the combo to prevent the Hulk trigger from going off. Two, you have multiple creatures, and they can only remove one. This part of the combo is vulnerable to graveyard hate. Leyline of the Void stops Protean Hulk from going to the 'yard, and as a result nothing happens. If they play Extirpate removing Phyrexian Dreadnought, fetch triple 'Goyf, or 'Goyf and Shapeshifter (which is a 6/6). If they remove Hulk after you put the Dreadnoughts and Shapeshifter into play, sacrifice one Dreadnought to the other, leaving you with a Dreadnought and a Shapeshifter (Dreadnought).

    b. Stifle-Nought

    1. Play Phyrexian Dreadnought, then Stifle his CiP ability.

    2. Protect it with countermagic, and try to win with a 12/12 beater.

    c. More MossNought

    1. If you are put in a situation where you cannot remove Protean Hulk with Mosswort Bridge, look for one of these cards instead:

    • Phyrexian Dreadnought
    • Dracoplasm
    • Stifle
    • Volrath's Shapeshifter


    2. Play Phyrexian Dreadnought, and play the hidden removed card. Either sacrifice one Dreadnought to the other, Stifle the CiP ability, sacrifice it to Dracoplasm, or let it die. Any of these will result in a 12/12.

    d. 'Goyf Beatdown!

    1. Play 'Goyf, and proceed to lay down the beats. Ponder, Fetchlands, and Brainstorm easily pump 'Goyf to a 3/4, Phyrexian Dreadnought makes him a 5/6, and he can grow even larger if aided by countermagic.


    IV. Reasoning for Card Inclusion or Exclusion

    a. Notable Inclusions

    Lim-Dul's Vault: Maybe you've noticed, but Lim-Dul's Vault is quite slow in this deck. In Flash, it could set up your entire combo by the third turn. In MossNought, it will delay you at least two extra turns before the combo is ready. This mostly has to do with Mosswort Bridge: For maximum speed (assuming no Brainstorm), you must draw Mosswort Bridge the following turn. If you then play it, you can remove Hulk, but the other three cards have to go on the bottom of your library, in which case there is no Dreadnought. Lim-Dul's Vault appears to be fantastic at first glance, but is only good in situations where you are trying to play defensively or passively.

    Pernicious Deed: MossNought originally had no maindeck answers to a resolved Meddling Mage, Chalice, and so on, and so I figured it had to change. In chronological order, I have played Massacre and Engineered Explosives. Recently both have been outmatched by Pernicious Deed. Deed gets rid of any and all problem permanents, and is even good as a control piece outside of the combo. It also flips for 3cc to Counterbalance, which can counter Krosan Grip.

    Stifle: One of the most important cards in the deck. Stifle both enables the Stifle-Nought combo, and gives protection from Wasteland. Additionally, Stifle's not half bad against Storm.

    Ponder: Thanks to Breathweapon and Jaynel for suggesting and trying this card out. Ponder is an additional shuffle effect, is a sorcery to pump Tarmogoyf, sets up the top of your library for Bridge, and provides card selection only bested by Vault and Brainstorm.

    The Entire Sideboard: Thanks to David Gearhart, the sideboard now transforms into Countertop Stifle-Nought.

    Pithing Needle: A sideboard necessity. Needle covers blaring weaknesses such as Wasteland and Rishadan Port.

    Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance: Countertop is amazing against Threshold. Deep6er said it best; when decks board in combo hate, you board in Countertop which creates dead cards for them, and virtual card advantage for you. These cards do not necessarily have to be part of a transformation. For example, I like to board in Sensei's Top against black-based aggro because it prevents my hand from being torn apart. Countertop can even come in as a supplement to the combo.

    Hydroblast: With Blood Moon effects seeing more play in both Threshold and Dragon Stompy, this deck needs some kind of answer. Blood Moon blocks all black and green mana sources so it cannot be Deeded. However, Hydroblast can destroy it and be cast with an Island.

    Academy Ruins/Engineered Explosives: Recurring threats = resiliency. I was debating whether to play this or Volrath's Stronghold, and decided to run Ruins, because we have more access to blue mana than black. Stronghold can recur 'Goyfs, but Ruins recurs EE and Pithing Needle. EE can be blown up a turn earlier and played under a Blood Moon.

    b. Notable Exclusions

    Worldly Tutor: A very versatile tutor in this combo. It places Hulk in the exact place that he needs to be, and can fetch you a Phyrexian Dreadnought which is the central card in this deck. However, I recently found Ponder as a suitable replacement for this. Worldly Tutor is still a fine addition: it is a matter of preference.

    Living Wish: Living Wish can fetch Phyrexian Dreadnought and Mosswort Bridge, in trade-off for the ability to set up Hulk. It is possible to run this along with Worldly Tutor (replacing LDV), but I didn't like the lowered blue card count. By lowering the Bridge/Dreadnought count, it also decreases the number of turn 2 or 3 kills. A wishboard could get interesting with the inclusion of Academy Ruins, but again, in the deck's current state I do not see Wish fitting well.

    Massacre: In early testing, I thought Massacre was the best choice of board removal, as I predicted Threshold/w and Fish to be problem match-ups. As it turns out, they aren't so bad, and Engineered Explosives is simply a better card.

    Cabal Therapy: Cabal Therapy is another viable piece of protection, that I don't consider necessary for a few reasons. One is that MossNought doesn't run enough creatures to see Therapy's real power. If you can stick a 'Goyf or Dreadnought, sacrificing it is the equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot and pissing on it to increase the pain. Secondly, in order to get the full effect out of your first few turns, it is better to keep your mana open for set-up. I find Daze much better at this because it never sets you back and will never go to waste.

    Other explanations may come later after inquiry or if the decklist changes.


    V. Match-ups and Testing

    All match-ups are tested in 20 games, meaning 10 preboard, 10 postboard, half on the play, and half on the draw. All preboard hands were kept as if playing against an unknown deck.

    a. Rgb Goblins

    1. Preboard (6-4)
    • On the Play (3-2)
    • On the Draw (3-2)


    Goods: MossNought is a bit faster than goblins, averaging turns 3-4, and packing countermagic too. A fast Stifle-Nought can be a gamewinner, and outside of that you don't need to battle them for the combat step. Tarmogoyf is greater than any of their creatures, and sometimes one can even win games on the back of a large 'Goyf.

    Bads: Wasteland and Port are MossNought's worst enemy. Having a low land count and relying on a nonbasic, tapped land means that Wasteland and Port are fast, uncounterable disruption.

    General: I would say that this match reminds me of Solidarity vs. Goblins. You sit for a few turns, trying to regulate Goblins while setting up. Goblins is simply racing a clock. Any strategy can be used here, really, it's just a question of "is it safe?" Playing a nonbasic before Mosswort may draw out a Wasteland, which is important if you don't have Stifle. Without Grips, they cannot do anything against a Dreadnought, and 'Goyf is excellent in this match-up as well. Goblins is a tempo deck and can win as such, but with proper regulation of their enablers, their mana-denial is not as effective. Goblins should be in your favor.

    2. Postboard (still testing)

    b. UGw Threshold with Countertop

    1. Preboard (6-4)
    • On the Play (3-2)
    • On the Draw (3-2)


    Goods: Threshold gives you a lot of time to set up. Yet, the best time to try to win is when they are still forming their hand and board position. There aren't really any concrete pros to this match, but with the amount of protection this deck packs, Threshold is actually slightly favorable.

    Bads: They've also got a lot of countermagic, which obviously presents so kind of problem. Swords to Plowshares gives them a bit of edge on disruption.

    General: Playing vs. Threshold was interesting. The winner was usually decided by whoever played their countermagic more intelligently (aside from drawing the nuts). The games I lost were long and drawn out, where Threshold was able to establish heavy control and card advantage. Some games were won through Hulk combo, and a good number also through Stifle-Nought, though those were typically closer. Lim-Dul's Vault shines in against Threshold, and in cases was more effective when resolved than Thresh's cantrip base. A resolved Meddling Mage is ridiculously hard to play around, and a resolved Counterbalance less so.

    2. Postboard (still testing)

    c. RG Belcher (1-land)

    1. Preboard (7-3)
    • On the Play (4-1)
    • On the Draw (3-2)


    Goods: Permission is the number one bane of Belcher. Stifle, Daze, and Force were all fantastic here. Empty the Warrens is harder to play around, but gives a couple extra turns, meaning if they choose to combo through Warrens, there is still time to combo off or stick a Dreadnought.

    Bads: Sometimes, Belcher simply plays its role, and can win the game without blinking. (It's that fast.)

    General: The list we tested with plays 4 MD Pyroblasts, as well as 4 SB Xantid Swarms and 3 SB REBs. I hope that choosing this match-up to test is not considered as monkeying with the match-up percentages; any other combo deck was likely to bring play mistakes. I assume Belcher is one of the better combo match-ups for this deck, as it doesn't have much protection. As far as playing the match goes, reserving permission for large mana spells and win conditions was the way to go. When Belcher combos off, I carefully watch the mana/cards in hand to narrow down his win options, making it easier to predict whether a EtW or Belcher is coming. Pyroblast helped them a little, but I was almost always able to answer it.

    2. Postboard (still testing)

    d. Red Death

    1. Preboard (6-4)
    • On the Play (4-1)
    • On the Draw (2-3)


    Goods: 'Goyf is usually quite large, and also bigger than most of their creatures. Red Death can't really deal with Phyrexian Dreadnought (outside of Snuff Out).

    Bads: Wasteland and Sinkhole wreck the landbase and keep Mosswort Bridge out of play. Hymn and Thoughtseize rape your hand. Red Death has a clear advantage here, outside of being weak to Dreadnought.

    General: The results surprised me, but I think this match-up isn't favorable (contradicting the numbers). Early game is hard to control, and an early combination of Thoughtseize + Hymn/Sinkhole can wreck your resources. Playing first gives you the ability to Brainstorm in response to discard, Daze early plays, and play business after their first turn. I usually whipped out countermagic against any resource-threatening cards, and let creature threats resolve. Stifle-Nought is amazing in this match-up, prominently because it is tough to set up the combo here. I realize now that it was folly to not test against Eva Green, which has more answers to Stifle-Nought and a better creature base (sans Magus). I am positive that Eva Green is a worse match-up.

    2. Postboard (still testing)

    e. Dragon Stompy

    1. Preboard (5-5)
    • On the Play (3-2)
    • On the Draw (2-3)


    Goods: Dragon Stompy has little way to access killing Dreadnought. The combo is not bad here, but usually I found it too slow to set up when early plays include Trinisphere and Chalice.

    Bads: Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, Chalice, Trinisphere. Need I say more? They've got a fast clock and plenty to slow you down. First turn and second turn it was common to see those drops. Moon effects are hard to play around (no way to kill it, only preboard option is Stifle-Nought), Chalice at 1 stops much of the deck, and Trinisphere makes the combo cost 7 mana. Needless to say, any of them will slow you down. I outright lost to a Blood Moon + Chalice @ 1.

    General: Daze is incredible here. I Dazed a countless number of spells in this match-up. Dragon Stompy can run out of fuel quickly, so playing defensively in the early game is important. Pernicious Deed is also good, but unless in play when a Moon effects hit, cannot destroy Blood Moon or Magus. However, it is significant in clearing threats, 3sphere, and Chalice. This match-up is slightly unfavorable, because the chance of them drawing a nutty hand completely outweighs your chances of countering it.

    2. Postboard (still testing)

    VI. Afterthought

    MossNought has the ability to consistently win by turns 3-4, and occasionally 5, which impressed me for such a counter-heavy deck. Although there are many ways to hate it, the deck has high resiliency and multiple routes to win.

    Thanks to Wobbles the Goose, the Hulk kill has become much more stable and compact. Other options include the Kiki-Jiki/Karmic Guide kill and the Disciple of the Vault kill. The former has low resilience, and the latter has high resiliency but creates an excess of dead cards.
    Last edited by iOWN; 02-08-2008 at 07:23 PM.

  2. #2
    Banned
    Cavius The Great's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2006
    Location

    Lake Of Fire and Brimstone
    Posts

    25

    Re: [CaNG] MossNought

    If this combo works, I think you may have broken the format. Also, I know I sound like I'm repeating myself, but have you considered Crop Rotation?

  3. #3
    Member
    iOWN's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2006
    Location

    Worcester/Boston, MA
    Posts

    447

    Re: [CaNG] MossNought

    If it doesn't work, I'm going to pop myself for not having checked all loose ends. Suspend cards can be played during your upkeep without paying their mana cost, do Hideaway lands work the same?

    Edit - Meaning, do you play Hulk after the resolution of Mosswort Bridge's ability? I assumed it works this way because it doesn't say "until end of turn".

    ...

    Edit -
    * The land's last ability allows you to play the removed card as part of the resolution of that ability. Timing restrictions based on the card's type are ignored (for instance, if it's a creature or sorcery). Other play restrictions are not (such as "Play [this card] only during combat").
    Last edited by iOWN; 01-12-2008 at 08:51 PM.

  4. #4
    Banned
    Cavius The Great's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2006
    Location

    Lake Of Fire and Brimstone
    Posts

    25

    Re: [CaNG] MossNought

    The question is, whether Phyrexian Dreadnought stays in play long enough for you to activate Mosswort Bridge. Once you find out if that works, then I think you're in the clear.

  5. #5
    Member
    iOWN's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2006
    Location

    Worcester/Boston, MA
    Posts

    447

    Re: [CaNG] MossNought

    Yes, because it's a triggered ability (rather than a replacement effect like it used to be), it will stay on the stack until both players have passed priority. You can respond to it by tapping G and Bridge, but I'm not 100% on the "play the removed card without paying its mana cost" clause.

    Crop Rotation is good, but untested. I feel like it's too narrow to warrant a spot over LDV or Worldly Tutor, and there isn't much room aside from that.

  6. #6
    Banned

    Join Date

    Dec 2007
    Location

    Attalla AL
    Posts

    46

    Re: [CaNG] MossNought

    First off let me say I love the idea behind this deck. As a pseudo flash hulk but not broken to that extent nice job. I see wasteland and stifle being your number one enemies followed by p needle and explosives for 1. Good luck in the contest.

  7. #7
    Runs on caffeine
    ACME_Myst's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2006
    Posts

    167

    Re: [CaNG] MossNought

    It works, under the current wording of Dreadnought.

    It's a triggered ability that you respond to by activating Bridge. You than play the card without paying it's mana cost. I'd say yes to being able to play it at that exact time, much like playing suspended cards like you said.

    [Edit]

    Btw, I'd test crop rotation. This would allow you to go Land, go, Land, go (or Land, petal, go to skip a turn) EOT Crop Rotate your land into Bridge, then respond to the Hideaway trigger with Worldy Tutor. This makes sure Bridge stays unexposed to possible Wastelands your opponent might be slowplaying.

  8. #8
    100%

    Join Date

    Nov 2007
    Location

    Berkeley, CA
    Posts

    333

    Re: [CaNG] MossNought

    Isn't wasteland > you? I mean, the idea is awesome, but you may need to think about that.

    However, I guess against goblins, the deck that packs the most wastelands, you can just go for the Nought win anyways.

    Excellent submission.

  9. #9
    The King of Lockjobs
    Peter_Rotten's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2003
    Location

    Middle of Nowhere, NY
    Posts

    1,639

    Re: [CaNG] MossNought

    Although Wasteland is troublesome, he has addressed the issue clearly and repeatedly mentioning Stifle and Needle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cavius The Great View Post
    Germany seems to find me influential. Have you ever Googled "Nourishing Lich"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Credo View Post
    No, Peter_Rotten, you are the problems.

  10. #10
    Member
    iOWN's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2006
    Location

    Worcester/Boston, MA
    Posts

    447

    Re: [CaNG] MossNought

    Interesting point on Crop Rotation, I was thinking of it as a land tutor rather than an instant-speed land. I'm pondering whether the loss of card advantage is really worth it. Pithing Needle serves a similar purpose (besides not tutoring and all) but stops Wasteland permanently. But yes, I will definitely test it.

    Wasteland is a stumbling block, but it's just like any other kind of disruption. If in a situation where there is really no way around Wasteland, like you said, you can play on without Mosswort Bridge. When I tested against Goblins, Wasteland was one of their strongest cards, but it never ended the game. Postboard, the plan is to bring in Pithing Needles which can hose all of Goblins' removal and mana denial.

    And thanks. :)

  11. #11
    Please read my signature.

    Join Date

    Jul 2004
    Posts

    1,548

    Re: [CaNG] MossNought

    This deck is FASCINATING. Hearty congratulations on an original concept.

    If possible, I'd like to add some ideas that I drew from a similar deck (Flash).

    1) I'd consider cutting the 2 Snares, and 2 of the Worldly Tutors for EITHER: 4 Tarmogoyf, or 4 Dark Confidant. I don't think the "randomness" of the 2 Snares is going to have as much of an impact as the four of on either one of those game-breakers. On a side note, don't worry about taking a huge hit from Bob, it's not as huge a deal as others might make it out to be.

    2) If you go with 'Goyf, I would highly recommend Deed for the Board. It's solid against a bunch of the hate that you can realistically expect (Jailer, Crypt, Leyline) while also helping because it's a ridiculously good card.

    3) I highly recommend you looking into Counter/Top for the Threshold match. I found that those cards tend to be so retarded against them that you can just go 'Goyf beatdown and win.

    So, those are my suggestions. To sum up:

    -2 Spell Snare
    -2 Worldly Tutor

    +4 Tarmogoyf/Dark Confidant

    Sideboard options:
    4 Pernicious Deed
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Counterbalance
    4 Engineered Plague

    EDIT: Something that occurred to me while thinking things over was the fact that you could get Bridge's clause simply from having Tarmogoyf's. That card is stupid. Figured that would certainly help to point out.
    Last edited by Deep6er; 01-09-2008 at 08:28 PM. Reason: Huh, Tarmogoyf is so stupid.

  12. #12
    Samurais suck
    Volt's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2006
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    1,896

    Re: [CaNG] MossNought

    .
    Last edited by Volt; 10-12-2008 at 05:30 AM.
    Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.

  13. #13
    Member
    technogeek5000's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2006
    Location

    Shelton, CT
    Posts

    896

    Re: [CaNG] MossNought

    I agree with Deep6er about adding confidants. i would run the confidants over the goyfs because the deck realy needs the combo to win and in a metagame where everyone else is playing goyfs to match your goyfs, 4 goyfs wont win you that many games. You would be better off having more ways to find your combo. I would also suggest looking into sensei's top and/or anopther way to get dreadnought (trickbind or vision charm) so you arent as dependant on your hulk kill. I like the deck, i think it is a improvement to both hulk and nought decks because you dont need to rely on 1 particular combo which makes it more consistent.
    Call me Ishmael

  14. #14
    100%

    Join Date

    Nov 2007
    Location

    Berkeley, CA
    Posts

    333

    Re: [CaNG] MossNought

    I've been testing this deck online.

    Basically, it rocks. I've played 2 games so far. I've never comboed out with flash, but in both I got Nought. It won me one, and in the other it was Vindicated while I was holding 2x Spellsnares. I cut those for Confidant, along with a Tutor.

    Anyways, this deck is very cool and seems strong, like I said earlier. I'm going to keep testing.

  15. #15
    Member-ish
    kicks_422's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2006
    Location

    Manila
    Posts

    1,255

    Re: [CaNG] MossNought

    Quote Originally Posted by Volt View Post
    This is perhaps the first CaNGD entry that is both truly original and potentially competitive. Kudos for that.
    Amen to that.

    I'd go with Goyfs because that would give you more than one way of activating the Bridge. I'd like that over Confidant because it just has bit more synergy with the deck (and no, not just because you play green.)

    Excellent job.

    EDIT: If you're worried about your KG-KJ combo getting disrupted, you can just go grab 2 Dreadnoughts and sacrifice one to the trigger of the other to keep one in play, plus 2 Goyfs. Or 3 Goyfs. Or 4 Dreadnoughts to keep 2 in play and a Goyf. God, I love this deck.

    EDIT2: Why not Benevolent Bodyguard over Vigilant Martyr?
    The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.

  16. #16
    D1 Athlete
    edgewalker's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2003
    Location

    Syracuse
    Posts

    1,004

    Re: [CaNG] MossNought

    I just goldfished this deck a few times and already I love it. I have to agree adding gofys improves the deck so much, because it acts as an "oh shit button" and always you to just drop a 4 turn clock.

    I guess what I would have to say is there are so many outs in this deck without diluting it. A few games I combo'd out and other I stifled a nought, or kiki-jiki'd one and swung two turns, or just dropped a goyf and sat back. I think this might be our CaNG winner.

    EDIT: One thing I've found from doing a little testing is dragon stompy kicks in you in the nuts. 8 moon effects + 4 cotv +4 3sphere makes for really hard games. Any thoughts?
    Si, I like cereal.

  17. #17
    Member
    iOWN's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2006
    Location

    Worcester/Boston, MA
    Posts

    447

    Re: [CaNG] MossNought

    'Goyf would add another level of resiliency, which may prove worthy of the spots, but in my opinion, Worldly Tutor is the wrong card to cut. Initially I only ran 2 Tutors, and they just didn't contribute much to the deck. I then upped them to four to see how much power they actually held, and I was surprised to see Worldly Tutor being better than Lim-Dul's Vault. The "because I play green" thing was just a joke. I needed the best creature to complete the transformative sideboard, and I just so happened to be playing green.

    As for Confidant, I'm not a fan of him in this deck. If the list were more like Steve Sadin's, with MD Countertop, he would look more appealing. 11 4cc+ spells is too much to safely run Bob. He's just a nightmare against aggro.

    I love the idea of Countertop in the sideboard. Supposing 'Goyf made maindeck, Trinket Mage would be disposable, and there would be plenty of room.

    I'll test it out with the following changes temporarily.

    -2 Spell Snare
    -1 Elvish Spirit Guide
    -1 LDV/Worldly Tutor
    +4 'Goyf


    SB
    -4 'Goyf
    -4 Trinket Mage
    +4 Counterbalance
    +3 Sensei's Top
    +1 Pithing Needle


    Thanks for the suggestions!


    Edit - I haven't tested against Dragon Stompy at all, because we've been testing through the gauntlet in order. I can imagine it being a rough match-up, and one where it's important to keep their initial threats off the board. Daze is probably good early game, as is Force, so you could try stalling out the early game by countering any relevant hate cards.

    Edit - First part deleted. Nihil's response is more coherent.

  18. #18
    I clench my fists and yell "anime" towards an uncaring, absent God
    Nihil Credo's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2007
    Location

    5950'59.11" N, 1734'55.69" E
    Posts

    4,980

    Re: [CaNG] MossNought

    Quote Originally Posted by kicks_422 View Post
    EDIT2: Why not Benevolent Bodyguard over Vigilant Martyr?
    Basically, the only things Bodyguard blocks that Vigilant Martyr doesn't are Swords to Plowshares and Smother. However, if your opponent has either of those, he's going to use them on your Hulk or your Dreadnought (respectively) in response to Dreadnought's trigger, so that you can't sacrifice the Hulk and start the combo.

    Vigilant Martyr protects your creatures from Red removal without interfering with Kiki-Jiki's ability (and forcing you to wait a turn) like Bodyguard or Sylvan Safekeeper would.
    YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.

  19. #19
    <3

    Join Date

    Jun 2006
    Location

    Kenmore, WA
    Posts

    537

    Re: [CaNG] MossNought

    I would just like to say that this is one of the most interesting, original and competative decks I've seen in this contest and perhaps the best. This looks to have extreme potential.
    I also would like to agree with what other people said about tarmogoyfs and/or dark confidants. Due to the nature of the deck you could sideboard into a slower and more control-ish version as well as a faster and more aggro-ish version so it would be difficult to not only play against but also sideboard against.

  20. #20

    Re: [CaNG] MossNought

    I'm not certain how competitive it is, but it has to be one of the funnest decks I've piloted in some time. It reminds me a lot of the Ghoul/Dreadnought combo deck, but with a trade off in dead cards.

    I wasn't impressed with Daze, it's not difficult for the opponent to keep 1 up, considering the deck telegraphs its combo turn. Most of the time I either wanted it to be a Duress effect to clear the road or a Stifle effect to beat down.
    Quote Originally Posted by wastedlife View Post
    Breathweapon, I regret saying this but ... I've been liking you more and more every day.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)