[CaNG - WINNER!] MossNought

[iOWN]

MossNought

I. History

My first attempt at brainstorming for CaNG was along these lines: What "good new deck"? The format is old, and the cardpool rarely changes. Lorwyn is empty and all of it's cards have been discovered. But what about Phyrexian Dreadnought? A 12/12 Trampler is hard to deal with, and surely has some larger place in the format.

So I began working on a Greater Good deck, which aimed to chain Dreadnoughts into fast mana, Berserk, and Fling. After I fiddled with the list, it contained 8 Spirit Guides, Lotus Petals, Berserks, Flings, Kamigawa Dragons, Reanimate, and Mosswort Bridge. Mosswort Bridge opened a potential turn 2 win.

Turn 1, Mosswort. Turn 2, Dreadnought, Spirit Guide, activate my trap card, Greater Good, commence combo-age.

Another synergy within this shell was using Mosswort Bridge to "Hide" a Kokusho or Yosei. You could then cast Dreadnought, freecast the Dragon, and sacrifice them both, which gave a nice big effect (particularly Yosei).

However, when I showed the deck to my friend, we noted that it was somewhat inconsistent and poorly protected. The combo took too many slots, and the few Discard spells I ran didn't win the Threshold match in the least. Around this time, it hit us. Rather than using the Bridge combo to sacrifice Yosei, we could win the game! Two words: Protean Hulk.


II. The List

Mana
4 Mosswort Bridge
2 Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

Meat
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Protean Hulk

Combo
1 Dracoplasm
1 Volrath's Shapeshifter
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

Protection
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle

Other
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Pernicious Deed


Side
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Hydroblast
3 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Academy Ruins

*double-take*

Wha-- is that Flash?! I knew it seemed familiar!

Actually, no it's not. Hulk Flash is a combo that recquires the resolution of a 2cc Blue Instant to win the game. MossNought is a two-and-a-half card combo that recquires 1G mana, plus a comes-into-play-tapped land.

The distinction has been made.


III. Strategy

a. The Hulk Win

1. Play Mosswort Bridge, and remove Protean Hulk with the Hideaway ability. For this to work, Protean Hulk must be one of the top four cards in your library, and not in your hand. Mosswort Bridge is tapped, meaning you cannot do anything else until next turn.

How to accomplish: Mosswort Bridge + Protean Hulk is the most tedious, yet safest, part of the combo to set up. Mosswort Bridge does not have a direct tutor, but can be obtained through Brainstorm or Lim-Dul's Vault (LDV). Through LDV, it is quite possible to get both Mosswort Bridge and Protean Hulk, enabling this part of your combo by the next turn. You can also find Protean Hulk via Worldly Tutor, and Mosswort Bridge on the same turn. If Hulk happens to be in your hand, you can use Brainstorm to put it back.

What to watch for: Mosswort Bridge is vulnerable until your next turn. If you are playing against a deck with Wasteland, protection in the form of Stifle or Pithing Needle may be necessary.

2. Cast Phyrexian Dreadnought. Once it resolves, activate Mosswort Bridge without passing priority, and play Protean Hulk for free. Sacrifice both Hulk and Dreadnought to Dreadnought's CiP ability.

What to watch for: Countermagic can play a large part here, because if they want to counter something, it will either be Dreadnought or Hulk. Once you play Hulk, they can Swords to Plowshares either Hulk or Dreadnought. Phyrexian Dreadnought can also be killed in response to the Bridge activation, which will effectively stop you from comboing, so prepare for artifact hate and Swords to Plowshares.

3. Win.

How to accomplish: Upon the resolution of Protean Hulk's leaves-play trigger, search for Dreadnought, Dreadnought, Dreadnought, and Volrath's Shapeshifter. Sacrifice one Dreadnought and Shapeshifter (Hulk) to another Dreadnought. Search for Dracoplasm and Flame-kin Zealot. As Dracoplasm comes into play, sacrifice either one or two Dreadnoughts, and proceed to swing for 25+. If you only have two Dreadnoughts, instead find Tarmogoyf and Flamekin Zealot off of the second Hulk trigger. (First route results in either a 25/25 Flyer, or a 13/13 Trample and a 13/13 Flyer. Second route results in a 13/13 Trample, a big 'Goyf, and a 3/3.)

What to watch for: Swords to Plowshares isn't relevant here for multiple reasons. One, they probably used it earlier on in the combo to prevent the Hulk trigger from going off. Two, you have multiple creatures, and they can only remove one. This part of the combo is vulnerable to graveyard hate. Leyline of the Void stops Protean Hulk from going to the 'yard, and as a result nothing happens. If they play Extirpate removing Phyrexian Dreadnought, fetch triple 'Goyf, or 'Goyf and Shapeshifter (which is a 6/6). If they remove Hulk after you put the Dreadnoughts and Shapeshifter into play, sacrifice one Dreadnought to the other, leaving you with a Dreadnought and a Shapeshifter (Dreadnought).

b. Stifle-Nought

1. Play Phyrexian Dreadnought, then Stifle his CiP ability.

2. Protect it with countermagic, and try to win with a 12/12 beater.

c. More MossNought

1. If you are put in a situation where you cannot remove Protean Hulk with Mosswort Bridge, look for one of these cards instead:

• Phyrexian Dreadnought
• Dracoplasm
• Stifle
• Volrath's Shapeshifter

2. Play Phyrexian Dreadnought, and play the hidden removed card. Either sacrifice one Dreadnought to the other, Stifle the CiP ability, sacrifice it to Dracoplasm, or let it die. Any of these will result in a 12/12.

d. 'Goyf Beatdown!

1. Play 'Goyf, and proceed to lay down the beats. Ponder, Fetchlands, and Brainstorm easily pump 'Goyf to a 3/4, Phyrexian Dreadnought makes him a 5/6, and he can grow even larger if aided by countermagic.

IV. Reasoning for Card Inclusion or Exclusion

a. Notable Inclusions

Lim-Dul's Vault: Maybe you've noticed, but Lim-Dul's Vault is quite slow in this deck. In Flash, it could set up your entire combo by the third turn. In MossNought, it will delay you at least two extra turns before the combo is ready. This mostly has to do with Mosswort Bridge: For maximum speed (assuming no Brainstorm), you must draw Mosswort Bridge the following turn. If you then play it, you can remove Hulk, but the other three cards have to go on the bottom of your library, in which case there is no Dreadnought. Lim-Dul's Vault appears to be fantastic at first glance, but is only good in situations where you are trying to play defensively or passively.

Pernicious Deed: MossNought originally had no maindeck answers to a resolved Meddling Mage, Chalice, and so on, and so I figured it had to change. In chronological order, I have played Massacre and Engineered Explosives. Recently both have been outmatched by Pernicious Deed. Deed gets rid of any and all problem permanents, and is even good as a control piece outside of the combo. It also flips for 3cc to Counterbalance, which can counter Krosan Grip.

Stifle: One of the most important cards in the deck. Stifle both enables the Stifle-Nought combo, and gives protection from Wasteland. Additionally, Stifle's not half bad against Storm.

Ponder: Thanks to Breathweapon and Jaynel for suggesting and trying this card out. Ponder is an additional shuffle effect, is a sorcery to pump Tarmogoyf, sets up the top of your library for Bridge, and provides card selection only bested by Vault and Brainstorm.

The Entire Sideboard: Thanks to David Gearhart, the sideboard now transforms into Countertop Stifle-Nought.

Pithing Needle: A sideboard necessity. Needle covers blaring weaknesses such as Wasteland and Rishadan Port.

Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance: Countertop is amazing against Threshold. Deep6er said it best; when decks board in combo hate, you board in Countertop which creates dead cards for them, and virtual card advantage for you. These cards do not necessarily have to be part of a transformation. For example, I like to board in Sensei's Top against black-based aggro because it prevents my hand from being torn apart. Countertop can even come in as a supplement to the combo.

Hydroblast: With Blood Moon effects seeing more play in both Threshold and Dragon Stompy, this deck needs some kind of answer. Blood Moon blocks all black and green mana sources so it cannot be Deeded. However, Hydroblast can destroy it and be cast with an Island.

Academy Ruins/Engineered Explosives: Recurring threats = resiliency. I was debating whether to play this or Volrath's Stronghold, and decided to run Ruins, because we have more access to blue mana than black. Stronghold can recur 'Goyfs, but Ruins recurs EE and Pithing Needle. EE can be blown up a turn earlier and played under a Blood Moon.

b. Notable Exclusions

Worldly Tutor: A very versatile tutor in this combo. It places Hulk in the exact place that he needs to be, and can fetch you a Phyrexian Dreadnought which is the central card in this deck. However, I recently found Ponder as a suitable replacement for this. Worldly Tutor is still a fine addition: it is a matter of preference.

Living Wish: Living Wish can fetch Phyrexian Dreadnought and Mosswort Bridge, in trade-off for the ability to set up Hulk. It is possible to run this along with Worldly Tutor (replacing LDV), but I didn't like the lowered blue card count. By lowering the Bridge/Dreadnought count, it also decreases the number of turn 2 or 3 kills. A wishboard could get interesting with the inclusion of Academy Ruins, but again, in the deck's current state I do not see Wish fitting well.

Massacre: In early testing, I thought Massacre was the best choice of board removal, as I predicted Threshold/w and Fish to be problem match-ups. As it turns out, they aren't so bad, and Engineered Explosives is simply a better card.

Cabal Therapy: Cabal Therapy is another viable piece of protection, that I don't consider necessary for a few reasons. One is that MossNought doesn't run enough creatures to see Therapy's real power. If you can stick a 'Goyf or Dreadnought, sacrificing it is the equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot and pissing on it to increase the pain. Secondly, in order to get the full effect out of your first few turns, it is better to keep your mana open for set-up. I find Daze much better at this because it never sets you back and will never go to waste.

Other explanations may come later after inquiry or if the decklist changes.

V. Match-ups and Testing

All match-ups are tested in 20 games, meaning 10 preboard, 10 postboard, half on the play, and half on the draw. All preboard hands were kept as if playing against an unknown deck.

a. Rgb Goblins

1. Preboard (6-4)

• On the Play (3-2)
• On the Draw (3-2)

Goods: MossNought is a bit faster than goblins, averaging turns 3-4, and packing countermagic too. A fast Stifle-Nought can be a gamewinner, and outside of that you don't need to battle them for the combat step. Tarmogoyf is greater than any of their creatures, and sometimes one can even win games on the back of a large 'Goyf.

Bads: Wasteland and Port are MossNought's worst enemy. Having a low land count and relying on a nonbasic, tapped land means that Wasteland and Port are fast, uncounterable disruption.

General: I would say that this match reminds me of Solidarity vs. Goblins. You sit for a few turns, trying to regulate Goblins while setting up. Goblins is simply racing a clock. Any strategy can be used here, really, it's just a question of "is it safe?" Playing a nonbasic before Mosswort may draw out a Wasteland, which is important if you don't have Stifle. Without Grips, they cannot do anything against a Dreadnought, and 'Goyf is excellent in this match-up as well. Goblins is a tempo deck and can win as such, but with proper regulation of their enablers, their mana-denial is not as effective. Goblins should be in your favor.

2. Postboard (still testing)

b. UGw Threshold with Countertop

1. Preboard (6-4)

• On the Play (3-2)
• On the Draw (3-2)

Goods: Threshold gives you a lot of time to set up. Yet, the best time to try to win is when they are still forming their hand and board position. There aren't really any concrete pros to this match, but with the amount of protection this deck packs, Threshold is actually slightly favorable.

Bads: They've also got a lot of countermagic, which obviously presents so kind of problem. Swords to Plowshares gives them a bit of edge on disruption.

General: Playing vs. Threshold was interesting. The winner was usually decided by whoever played their countermagic more intelligently (aside from drawing the nuts). The games I lost were long and drawn out, where Threshold was able to establish heavy control and card advantage. Some games were won through Hulk combo, and a good number also through Stifle-Nought, though those were typically closer. Lim-Dul's Vault shines in against Threshold, and in cases was more effective when resolved than Thresh's cantrip base. A resolved Meddling Mage is ridiculously hard to play around, and a resolved Counterbalance less so.

2. Postboard (still testing)

c. RG Belcher (1-land)

1. Preboard (7-3)

• On the Play (4-1)
• On the Draw (3-2)

Goods: Permission is the number one bane of Belcher. Stifle, Daze, and Force were all fantastic here. Empty the Warrens is harder to play around, but gives a couple extra turns, meaning if they choose to combo through Warrens, there is still time to combo off or stick a Dreadnought.

Bads: Sometimes, Belcher simply plays its role, and can win the game without blinking. (It's that fast.)

General: The list we tested with plays 4 MD Pyroblasts, as well as 4 SB Xantid Swarms and 3 SB REBs. I hope that choosing this match-up to test is not considered as monkeying with the match-up percentages; any other combo deck was likely to bring play mistakes. I assume Belcher is one of the better combo match-ups for this deck, as it doesn't have much protection. As far as playing the match goes, reserving permission for large mana spells and win conditions was the way to go. When Belcher combos off, I carefully watch the mana/cards in hand to narrow down his win options, making it easier to predict whether a EtW or Belcher is coming. Pyroblast helped them a little, but I was almost always able to answer it.

2. Postboard (still testing)

d. Red Death

1. Preboard (6-4)

• On the Play (4-1)
• On the Draw (2-3)

Goods: 'Goyf is usually quite large, and also bigger than most of their creatures. Red Death can't really deal with Phyrexian Dreadnought (outside of Snuff Out).

Bads: Wasteland and Sinkhole wreck the landbase and keep Mosswort Bridge out of play. Hymn and Thoughtseize rape your hand. Red Death has a clear advantage here, outside of being weak to Dreadnought.

General: The results surprised me, but I think this match-up isn't favorable (contradicting the numbers). Early game is hard to control, and an early combination of Thoughtseize + Hymn/Sinkhole can wreck your resources. Playing first gives you the ability to Brainstorm in response to discard, Daze early plays, and play business after their first turn. I usually whipped out countermagic against any resource-threatening cards, and let creature threats resolve. Stifle-Nought is amazing in this match-up, prominently because it is tough to set up the combo here. I realize now that it was folly to not test against Eva Green, which has more answers to Stifle-Nought and a better creature base (sans Magus). I am positive that Eva Green is a worse match-up.

2. Postboard (still testing)

e. Dragon Stompy

1. Preboard (5-5)

• On the Play (3-2)
• On the Draw (2-3)

Goods: Dragon Stompy has little way to access killing Dreadnought. The combo is not bad here, but usually I found it too slow to set up when early plays include Trinisphere and Chalice.

Bads: Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, Chalice, Trinisphere. Need I say more? They've got a fast clock and plenty to slow you down. First turn and second turn it was common to see those drops. Moon effects are hard to play around (no way to kill it, only preboard option is Stifle-Nought), Chalice at 1 stops much of the deck, and Trinisphere makes the combo cost 7 mana. Needless to say, any of them will slow you down. I outright lost to a Blood Moon + Chalice @ 1.

General: Daze is incredible here. I Dazed a countless number of spells in this match-up. Dragon Stompy can run out of fuel quickly, so playing defensively in the early game is important. Pernicious Deed is also good, but unless in play when a Moon effects hit, cannot destroy Blood Moon or Magus. However, it is significant in clearing threats, 3sphere, and Chalice. This match-up is slightly unfavorable, because the chance of them drawing a nutty hand completely outweighs your chances of countering it.

2. Postboard (still testing)

VI. Afterthought

MossNought has the ability to consistently win by turns 3-4, and occasionally 5, which impressed me for such a counter-heavy deck. Although there are many ways to hate it, the deck has high resiliency and multiple routes to win.

Thanks to Wobbles the Goose, the Hulk kill has become much more stable and compact. Other options include the Kiki-Jiki/Karmic Guide kill and the Disciple of the Vault kill. The former has low resilience, and the latter has high resiliency but creates an excess of dead cards.

[Cavius The Great]

If this combo works, I think you may have broken the format. Also, I know I sound like I'm repeating myself, but have you considered Crop Rotation?

[iOWN]

If it doesn't work, I'm going to pop myself for not having checked all loose ends. Suspend cards can be played during your upkeep without paying their mana cost, do Hideaway lands work the same?

Edit - Meaning, do you play Hulk after the resolution of Mosswort Bridge's ability? I assumed it works this way because it doesn't say "until end of turn".

...

Edit -

* The land's last ability allows you to play the removed card as part of the resolution of that ability. Timing restrictions based on the card's type are ignored (for instance, if it's a creature or sorcery). Other play restrictions are not (such as "Play [this card] only during combat").

[Cavius The Great]

The question is, whether Phyrexian Dreadnought stays in play long enough for you to activate Mosswort Bridge. Once you find out if that works, then I think you're in the clear.

[iOWN]

Yes, because it's a triggered ability (rather than a replacement effect like it used to be), it will stay on the stack until both players have passed priority. You can respond to it by tapping G and Bridge, but I'm not 100% on the "play the removed card without paying its mana cost" clause.

Crop Rotation is good, but untested. I feel like it's too narrow to warrant a spot over LDV or Worldly Tutor, and there isn't much room aside from that.

[ACME_Myst]

It works, under the current wording of Dreadnought.

It's a triggered ability that you respond to by activating Bridge. You than play the card without paying it's mana cost. I'd say yes to being able to play it at that exact time, much like playing suspended cards like you said.

[Edit]

Btw, I'd test crop rotation. This would allow you to go Land, go, Land, go (or Land, petal, go to skip a turn) EOT Crop Rotate your land into Bridge, then respond to the Hideaway trigger with Worldy Tutor. This makes sure Bridge stays unexposed to possible Wastelands your opponent might be slowplaying.

[Mental]

Isn't wasteland > you? I mean, the idea is awesome, but you may need to think about that.

However, I guess against goblins, the deck that packs the most wastelands, you can just go for the Nought win anyways.

Excellent submission.

[JDunkin00]

First off let me say I love the idea behind this deck. As a pseudo flash hulk but not broken to that extent nice job. I see wasteland and stifle being your number one enemies followed by p needle and explosives for 1. Good luck in the contest.

[nupert]

Yesterday I built the deck and wanted to draw some hands. The first (and actually only) one was this:

Protean Hulk
Volrath's Shapeshifter
Dracoplasm
Force of Will
Ponder
Tropical Island
Polluted Delta

I thought I could keep this hand if there only was one fetchable red source in this deck. I'd play Volrath's Shapeshifter. Next turn discard Protean Hulk, play Dracoplasm with the red source, sacrificing the shapeshifted Hulk. I'd search for 2x Phyrexian Dreadnought and Flame-Kin Zealot. Then I'd attack with a flying 7/7, a 13/13 with trample and a 3/3 on turn 4. It bothers me, that I can't hardcast Dracoplasm.

Is this an issue that should be discussed, or is this situation too unusal?

[Isamaru]

Good luck getting to 4 mana with a Tropical Island, a red Dual, and 2 other lands from Fetchlands as your 4 lands. Wasteland, Stifle, and Blood Moon do exist... and countering Blood Moon would cost you one of the blue cards in that hand.

In other words... if you are already losing to those cards with all nonbasics, you may as well play the red dual and simply continue to do so (since there is no way around it in this deck) since it will let you then also play the Dracoplasm. Then again, creature removal at any time would stop the scenario you described anyway.

Also, I would have thrown that hand back because it has nothing to actually put on the board in the first few turns (Threshold is allowed to do this since the rest of their hand is counterspells) and would probably pack it to a fast aggro deck, a Gempalm, a Lackey, etc.

Why has the only part of this deck that's been discussed the combo part? Having a combo is great and all, but not if you have no plan B for when (not if) it is disrupted. The Goldfishing part of the deckbuilding process is done, or should have been. I don't want to be negative, but it is probably a good idea to be realistic.

[sunshine]

apparently a MossNaught build made top eight at the hadley tournament just last weekend, any chance we could get a decklist and maybe some match reports? I heard something about standstills?

[iOWN]

I've been a little out of it... back to posting.

nupert: Splashing for a single card isn't worth it. More often the situation will arise when you have a Shapeshifted Hulk and a 'Nought, which can be hardcasted easily. It's possible to replace the black splash with red (as red has plenty of other options), but in my opinion LDV and Deed will remain the superior choice, and the mana base is not even close to being able to support four colors.

The combo is kept minimal, not because it isn't important, but because it is equally as important as the other routes, and should be treated as such. Even with more than three dead cards, you begin to have bad draws; even four is pushing it. I feel that the current combo is resilient enough to pass, that it's compact, and that the combo pieces could be worse when drawn.

sunshine: I'm not sure about that... it looks like Dreadstill did. I wasn't able to go, and I don't think many people are playing MossNought at the moment.

[thefreakaccident]

Is it just me, or would fling be amazing in this deck?

You can fling-nought for 12 damage, or use it as a later game sac outlet to hulk... It can also make goyfs just that more deadly (should you choose to run them), as a couple swings and they will have to try to stabalize at 10 or so.

[e_hawk77]

this is the list that i ran last night.

4 dreadnought
4 goyf
4 hulk
1 zealot
1 dracoplasm
1 vorath's shapeshifter

4 stifle
4 fow
4 daze
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
1 serum vision
3 sensei's top
2 engineered explosives

3 delta
3 strand
3 trop
2 volc
1 academy ruins
4 mosswart bridge
3 island

3 pyroblast
3 hydroblst
2 k grip
2 pyroclasm
2 needle
3 crypt

the deck did well my one loss come to a homebrew type deck with wastelands sinkholes and hand diruption. my wins were vs red thresh white thresh and a white weenie deck. the deck can easily go agrro plan which is very nice. i can figure out if the red board is worth it or if thoughtseize is just better than red blast. also clasm is not needed against aggro u can just go stifle naught and win. any help on changes would be nice thanks

[sunshine]

congrats on doing well with the deck, any chance we could get a run down of how the games played out? Did you have any trouble finding combo pieces without LDV?

[e_hawk77]

sure i can do that for ya.

rd 1 rebel stompy (like angel stompy but with rebels)

this guy has been playing this deck for year with good success. so it is very tuned and has good match ups vs landstill and thresh.

game 1

game 1 he keeps a questionable hand that is good vs thresh and he assumes that is what i was playing since he saw me borrow stifle and goyfs from a friend. he wins the die roll and plays wasteland and a aether vial. i play trop and top. he lets the vial go to one and plays a plains and wastes my trop. i play mosswart bridge and hide hulk (lucky but it could have easily been stifle or another nought cuz i had one in hand). he put another counter on his vial and then plays tithe for another plains then drop mother of ruins. i top on upkeep and get a force just incase he has swords then drop island for turn. he misses his land drop but has a vial on three and passes. i top end of turn and find a third land and play it and combo out and kill him.

board in: 2 needles 2 pyroclasm out: 1 daze 1 serum vision 1 hulk 1 ponder

game 2

he plays a vial this time i have force. i play needle on wasteland. he gets a whipcorder. i play goyf which isn't very good vs a whipcorder. then for the next few turn we stare at each other. he gets down a negator lucky for me though i get a nought and a stifle. he is still making it hard due to the whipcorder but a few turns later i find a pyroclasm and shortly after that he dies.

match 2

red thresh

game1

we both mull. i win the die roll. i start off with fetch for an island. he plays mongoose i brainstorm then i daze it. replay island he plays ponder then land. i then play mosswort (hulk) with stifle back up for the wastes he plays. he doesn't hit a wasteland and plays goyf and i let it resove. then i combo out the next turn after forcing his force.

sb in 3 red blast 2 needles out 1 of daze ponder visions hulk and trop
game 2

his one land hand mean that he has a goyf and like 28 counterspells. he plays ponder into land and then goyf which i try to daze and he dazes mine. then i play nought and then stifle and he forces that i daze force and he dazes daze. then i play goyf and he snares. i try for goyf number 2 and he snares. then i die.

game 3

i just decide to go for it. i play mosswort find stifle. then i play nought with stifle in hand stifle the trigger he dazes and i force he plays land i swing he plays brainstorm and doesn't find a grip i win.

uw thresh

game 1

this game was weird all he really did was play a counterbalance and we fought over it i won that battle and he really didn't do anything else and i killed him with two goyfs.

sb 2 in 2 k. grip 3 red blast out same as before but island not trop

game 2

we fight over a counterbalance again he wins but his hand is very low. i draw k. grip and hit counterbalance with it. his next two draws are mages how dumb. they name nought then explosives. lucky for me i am drawing bad this game lol. i play shapeshifter then top deck a nought and make my shapeshifter huge. he draws swords but i force it and that is the game.

white weenie

game 1
nought plus stifle turn two equal they lose.

game 2
turn one isamaru i have island ponder
turn two priest i have bridge (hulk)
turn three morph i have combo

top 8

i play vs homebrew

i play trop and pass he play ritual duress hymm
i play island he plays ritual duress sinkhole wasteland
i play volc he play waste
i miss land drop he plays ritual negator

games two

pretty much the same as the first

i feel top is better than lim duls vault. the vault is good if you can set up with it but is almost like a dead card if you are going the aggro way for the win. also top is a ponder when ever you need it. and you get to set up for multiple turns if you wanna.
but i had a bunch of turn 3 wins and didn't need the lim dul for it.

[e_hawk77]

i think im gonna either run black for discard and extirpates in the board or keep this list but cut visions and a daze for misdirection.

[Peter_Rotten]

We're pleased to see some new members posting on The Source, but the mod staff would like to remind everyone of the Site Rules. In particular, reference the rules about using capitals and avoiding double posts.

[gobblor]

This is what I don't understand. Im fairly new to the game so just an explanation would be good. Ok so you play dreadnaught then activate the bridge playing hulk, then you sacrifice hulk and dreadnaught to its ability but you would have to sac the hulk first because if you sacced the dreadnaught first you would have already sacraficed a total power of 12. So you go and get naughts and shapeshifters but since your top card of your graveyard is a dreadnaught and not hulk how does the combo work since the shapeshifter is copying a dreadnaught? Or am I missing something or can you sac the naught to itself and still sacc the hulk?

[94teen]

you technically sacrifice both at the same time, because the creatures don't hit the graveyard until the ability resolves.

Then the game sees that two creatures want to go to the graveyard, and you get to choose the order that they go to the graveyard in.

I believe this is how this works.