Yes, as I play more and more, I really want daze to be another cheap hard counter, duress/thoughtseize, or trickbind. The only I see with replacing daze with discard is that we'd be running low on blue cards for FoW.
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As an alternative to Crop Rotation, you could also consider 1-2 copies of Tolaria West. The drawback is heavy and so is the benefit. I wouldn't bet much on it, but I think it's worth trying out.
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First, I echo what everyone has said about this being the first turly innovative and competitive deck in this contest so far. Lots are either highly original or competitive, but I think this one hits both squarely on the head.
What I really like about the deck is that Dreadnaught, aside from being a combo enabler, is also a backup plan if for some reason you can't combo off. The deck has outs, as well as a super resilient combo that can kill by turns 3 or 4 (I haven't goldfished it yet, but that's what I'm hearing). On that same note, I would also recommend adding Goyf to the maindeck. The combo package is small enough that you can fit him in, and he's just that retarded, especially when you can grab 3 of them for a total face beating if for some reason you can't go infy. Also, 2 Goyfs can equal 10 power, as Gearhart pointed out.
But again, mad props on an amazing idea and deck.
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Originally Posted by Slay
Has cabal therapy been tried (MD) as disruption and an additional sac outlet incase you aren't holding dreadnought?
Also very cool deck!
Last edited by Waikiki; 01-10-2008 at 06:07 AM.
I'm really impressed with this deck so I'll throw in my kudos to the ever growing pile. I initially had a Mosswort Bridge + Dreadnought deck, but hadn't considered anything like using another combo with that one.
My only suggestion is the possible use of Biorhythm in the deck. That was my 'combo' piece with Dreadnought as I'd constantly have 1-2 creatures in play and found I could typically kill or draw with my control opponents.
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I must say that this entry is really impressive !
I tried to build a nought combo/aggro deck, but it never had neither this resilency nor the hulk/mosswort or the tarmogoyf plan. I'm gonna test it and I consider it as the best entry I've seen in this contest so far :)
Still, I would try replacing Daze by something more consistent like Duress, Cabal Therapy ... I'm not sure about the blue count for fow, but it would leave 11 pitchable cards.
Did you try some discard in this deck?
I really like it by the way, good job
I agree with the people above me - that's the most innovative (while quite strong) deck so far.
Also, I agree that Tarmogoyf should be in the deck. Back up-plans are always good. Imho, Bob is a no-go in a deck that runs 4 FoW, 4 Protean Hulk, Kiki, Guide and Body Snatcher. The chances of hitting a high CC card are rather high.
11 Cards are hardly enough to support FoW - even 15 are a critical number.
After some testing, I think you're right although i hadn't noticed it left 14 cards, I forgot 3 LDV.11 Cards are hardly enough to support FoW - even 15 are a critical number.
The main issue with stifle, as far i i'm concerned is that it does'nt help a lot against control, because he's gonna have 1 mana open forever
The deck is very good! Congratulations to creating one of the most creative decks I have seen so far in this contest! With the right amount of work, this could probably become really viable.
Gearhart mentioned the Counterbalance/Top engine, and I had exactly the same thought when I saw your decklist... but I think Sensei's Top might actually have a place in the maindeck, since it has an amazing syngergy with the Bridge. I might take out Lim Dul's Vault for it, since you mentioned that it is actually quite weak in the deck. You might probably be able to cut some of the Lotus Petals for more fetchlands, utilizing Top's awesomeness. This would also free slots in the SB.
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If you take out LDV for Top, wouldn't you be a little worried about the number of blue cards that can support FoW. I mean we're already dangerously low, so I don't think taking out a blue card is the best idea, no matter how bad it is. I think maybe replacing LDV with a better blue card might be a good idea.
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Weak? I've been loving LDV every time I play it. Really, it's the best combo enabler in the deck IMO. If the only combo piece I have is bridge, I can cycle through my deck until I find a 5 card pile with both Hulk and Nought, and arrange them just right. Seriously, I've found LDV to be about on par with Worldly Tutor.
EDIT: If we're worried about the low blue count, what do you all think of a Cabal Therapy/Daze split? A 2/2?
I've been testing ponder in the place of LDV a little. I loved vault, but I wish it was quicker; I also noticed that I wasn't finding my combo pieces quick enough, ponder digs 3 deep to find pieces and it can also set up for bridge. I'm not completely sold on it yet, but I'm just giving it a shot.
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You're definitely in first place in Originality. Fantastic job coming up with a combo that not only has disruption backing it up, but a subcombo in case something goes wrong.
I'll get to testing this soon.
Tarmogoyf def. belongs in MD, the ability to Hulk out 2 Goyfs and 2 Naughts and just goto beats if your combo isn't possible is just good, not to mention being able to just beat down with hardcasted Goyfs or plying 2 and getting within Bridge range. I like that when you add Goyfs the deck is very viable as both combo and a kind of StifleNaught/beats deck. While the original deck still has the backup of Stifle/Naught I feel the Goyf addition takes the deck to another level. The original list focuses a little too much on the combo, to the point where you almost want to ask the default question of why should I play this over XXXX. It has 4x Worldly Tutor and 3x Lim-Dul's, that's 7 cards that put cards on top of the library, which I think may be a bit too much. LD's are awesome in my testing as they usually find atleast 2/3 combo pieces, Worldly Tutor not so much. Maybe a transformational SB with CounterTop and Confidant is in order, you could fit some of the Tops in the MD, might be good depending on your bad matchups, but would get around troublesome things like Extirpate which you have no answer for and throws a giant wrench in your combo. Anyways just a thought.
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This is gonna be stupid, but I figure I'd say it anyway. What about something that can untap Mosswort the turn it CIP's? Something like Cloud of Faeries or Twiddle? Would that help make the deck faster, more resilient, or would using the mana to play said spell (and take up deck slots) just end up making the deck less fuctional?
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What's not to like about Daze? Honestly, I haven't had any doubts about it, and don't understand why people are looking to replace it. Early game is all about stabilization. It's when opponents will fling all of their disruption at you, and Daze is by far the best counter to it. Force of Will is great, but costs two cards, while Daze will set you back almost none. Both Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize have been tested maindeck, and neither made the cut because with a mana base of 16 lands and 4 disposable sources, they are just too mana hungry (as crazy as that seems). Both Daze and Force can sit in your hand, will never go to waste, and allow you to play all of the set-up that is needed.
Cloud of Faeries would likely be a dead card most of the time, considering that if you don't have fast mana, it wouldn't enable the win until turn 4. Crop Rotation plays the same role, but any untap would add even more cards to the combo, and probably lower consistency.
iOWN and I were the testers for this deck and i am really excited about it. We tested with him playing mossnaught and i was playing the other decks. I realized while playing against the deck how powerful it was and to be honest i was surprises how it won so much. I am not a true legacy player (I play mostly t2) But I still know the meta game and i know how to pilot the main decks. Anyway i want to thank everyone for posting suggestions and good luck with your caNG. (if you are making one)
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Yeah, "Mclovin" contributed to the making of the deck, and helped me test it. Although he is mainly a t2 and limited player, he plays with me so much that he has a fair amount of knowledge of the Legacy format and can pilot the decks he is familiar with fine.
Pretty good idea, indeed. I haven't really much to comment as I can't see what might could improve it. But isn't there a pretty large dead draw % when you're playing so many combo pieces or am I missing something?
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