[CaNG - WINNER!] MossNought

[FredMaster]

Nope.
The Card "Daze" is inherently made to play it as a Playset or just NOT.
You want to have it early or not. In the Lategame it's only a Force pitch-in.
Therefore it is not even necessary to play them if you have not enough space for a full Playset.
Daze in general is absolutely ok and right in that deck.

Here is my quite untested list, that looks pretty decent on the paper tho:

// Lands
4 [LOR] Mosswort Bridge
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island
3 [B] Underground Sea
1 [UNH] Island

// Creatures
4 [DIS] Protean Hulk
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [TE] Dracoplasm
1 [SH] Volrath's Shapeshifter
1 [LOR] Inner-Flame Acolyte
1 [JU] Benevolent Bodyguard

// Spells
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [MI] Worldly Tutor
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague

So far,
Fred

[JDunkin00]

they are kinda random and i stil need to find something thats better.
I need something blue of cc2

Hmmm... Counterspell, Remand, trickbind, boomerang all come to mind. Most benificial to this deck would be trickbind or counterspell.

[FredMaster]

The Card "Daze" is inherently made to play it as a Playset or just NOT.
You want to have it early or not. In the Lategame it's only a Force pitch-in.
Therefore it is not even necessary to play them if you have not enough space for a full Playset.
Daze in general is absolutely ok and right in that deck.

[Finn]

How are you surviving without one basic land?

He isn't surviving. When you consider that the moss land can't reliably come into play unless you already have the combo set up, that means that he only has 14 actual no strings attached mana sources. Even Threshold doesn't try anything like that.

Tell me again how this is not a 3+ card combo. I count:
1. Dreadnought in hand
2. Mosswort Bridge in play, untapped, with Hulk under it
3. A way to sac the Hulk

-I don't see a single way to sacrifice the Hulk in Iown's build unless the single Carrion Feeder is already in play when it resolves. Am I missing something?
-It requires a lot of setup. (Mosswort in play for a full turn, Hulk in the top four cards)
-Wasteland kills the Mosswort thing
-Certain gy hate cards can end the combo, depending on the win condition

With so many cards required and so many bottlenecks, I am betting that the fall-back combo is better than the main one. If that is so, why do I care about this deck?

EDIT: On the constructive side, Mask of the Mimic could be good. You can respond to a Dreadnought killing itself by saccing one of your pecks to get another Dreadnought. Ordinarily, this would not be spectacular (3 to 1 card disadvantage if it is countered), but you can also sac a Hulk, targetting an opponent's creature (which you will never find in your own library), just to get your combo off. Much like Flashing back Therapy, this can NOT be countered.

[edgewalker]

Dreadnought is the way to sac hulk. So it's only a 3 card combo.
It's:
1)Dreadnought in hand
2)Bridge in Play
3)Hulk Under Bridge

See the thing to remember is that when you play nought, you activate the bridge then sac the hulk to the citp ability. So the noughts play two roles.

[Finn]

Thanks, Edgewalker. The discussion makes more sense now. So we are talking about a 3 card combo. That's not too shabby.

I think I would not count the Mosswort Bridge as a land from a design perspective.

[edgewalker]

Not at all, I was confused when I first started testing why I wasn't getting enough lands, and then it dawned on me that we're actually play 14-16 lands since the bridge comes in to play tapped and is almost never used for mana.

[Finn]

So we are saying the same thing here. The design looks good. The mana supply looks bad. Mosswort Bridge is not a land in this deck.

[Mclovin]

Yes But don't forget that this deck can only win with hulk; If playing against gy hate, it will simply just try to stifle a dreadnought. Post board against a deck with allot of gy hate, it will simply board out the 8 combo pieces and a few other cards to bring in counter/top and the confidants. Also if u are afraid of wastleland being a big factor post board, then u bring in the pithing needles. Many opponents will bring in gy hate and they will have dead cards in there deck (Even though it does affect tarmogoyf, but that is not a big deal) it will not be a problem. What you try to do post board is set up allot of card advantage (through the confidant, top etc) and eventually go stifle on a naught. If they don't have any gy hate down than u can hold them off with tarmogoyfs. As iOWN and i were testing the deck, it does not have a hard time post board with gy hate. IF they are playing gy hate preboard, then it will be harder because u have a lot of dead cards.

About the mana issues. Our current manabase has allot of issues and we are trying to fix that. We are still testing the lotus petals to see if we need acceleration more than consistency. if you are to cut the petals i recommend running more fetches and less duals to help with, preboard brainstorms and postboard countertop and confidant

If u have anymore suggestions post them. We would appreciate it

[edgewalker]

Oh I agree, that is the beauty of the deck, it has the most potential for a transformational sideboard. I've been doing the same, come game 2, I'm playing stiflenought with countertop, not a combo deck.

But yes as of right now, I'm playing 21 lands including bridge and it's been working well. With the amount of digging we have in this deck I think we can go as a low as 17 lands.

[nightbringer]

He isn't surviving. When you consider that the moss land can't reliably come into play unless you already have the combo set up, that means that he only has 14 actual no strings attached mana sources. Even Threshold doesn't try anything like that.

I never had much problems with my mana, i suggest you try the deck before stating that i dont survive on the current manabase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbringer View Post
they are kinda random and i stil need to find something thats better.
I need something blue of cc2
Hmmm... Counterspell, Remand, trickbind, boomerang all come to mind. Most benificial to this deck would be trickbind or counterspell.

I have been playing trickbind at the moment but there is a chanse these will become lands should i encounter problems with the manabase

[Mclovin]

EDGEWALKER: Are you playing lotus petals along with the 25 lands, or did cut them?

[edgewalker]

I cut them, I feel stability is far more important than speed with a deck like this. The mana base I'm playing looks like this right now:

4 Mosswort Bridge
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded strand
3 Underground sea
2 Windswept Heath
3 Island
1 Forest

I'm still about leery about the 1 forest and 2 heaths but I felt being able to find G against decks that played non-basic hate was important game one trying to go off and playing goyfs, but also games 2 and 3 when we switch to a more aggro control route.

[Mordenkain]

Guys, guys. You are trying to hard. Sure this deck concept is original and have a good potential of getting strong, but one thing to consider: What makes this stronger than playing some stripped down variant of cephalid breakfeast?

Heres a decklist I have lying around, it runs a 2-card I-WIN combo along with stifle-naught:

// Lands
4 Island
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea

// Creatures
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Narcomoeba
1 Sutured Ghoul

// Spells
2 Trickbind
4 Shuko
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
4 Stifle
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Dragon Breath

Other than the included goyfs in MossNaught, why is this deck so hyped up? Don't get me wrong, I love the creative thinking in here, but I just don't see why it's supposed to be so good. But maybe im wrong (most likely actually), but I just don't see it. Anyone care to enlightened me?

[iOWN]

Other than the included goyfs in MossNaught

Breakfast usually will have 'Goyfs, and not Stifle-Nought. I think that's a more important point of comparison. I can't talk about Breakfast because I'm not experienced with it, but I can see that's regularly one advantage.

Comparing it to your list, I can say another thing: Where is the resilience? Although you have a lot of protection, you've dropped Vial and alternate combo pieces, can lose outright to graveyard hate, have more dead cards, and have greater vulnerability to removal. With the current win combo (Dracoplasm), Mossnought can completely ignore graveyard hate, and can still function independent of the combo.

I think it's unfair to call this deck a "stripped down version of Breakfast". What's stripped down about it? Although the two can definitely be compared, I don't believe you can take one deck and say that it's strictly superior. Both decks have advantages, but this deck is still in the testing stage. Comparing a new concept to current Tier 1/1.5 decks stifles creativity and keeps the metagame stagnant.


nightbringer: For what specific reason don't you play basics? I rarely get screwed by color, because the deck doesn't really have many color requirements.

Fetches and basics > lots of duals.

Edgewalker: Thanks for your input. At times I've wondered if Lotus Petals are shooting me in the leg, but then I continually draw hands in which Petal saves the game. Outside of a turn 2 win, I've had many turn 2's when I wanted to Brainstorm or Tutor and then play Mosswort Bridge, and Lotus Petal allowed me to keep a mana open for Stifle. Chrome Mox is also a possibility for mana stability, but this deck poorly handles card disadvantage. If possible, be sure to tell me how that mana base works against Goblins. I'd love to see if lands are better than Lotus Petals outside of my personal bias.

[Isamaru]

Guys, guys. You are trying to hard. Sure this deck concept is original and have a good potential of getting strong, but one thing to consider: What makes this stronger than playing some stripped down variant of cephalid breakfeast?

Other than the included goyfs in MossNaught, why is this deck so hyped up? Don't get me wrong, I love the creative thinking in here, but I just don't see why it's supposed to be so good. But maybe im wrong (most likely actually), but I just don't see it. Anyone care to enlightened me?

I also don't understand why this deck is the second coming of the messiah, but I do think iOWN has put two known-ideas together that work very well. I do not mean to put down iOWN, but rather I want to express that I think that there are many many (though not all) creative decks in this contest currently (and I don't just biased-ly mean mine) that deserve consideration as well. To immediately shout "this deck won the contest" and "you hit the nail squarely on the head because nobody else comes close" etc. is not only unfair, but ignorantly discounting the other good submissions.

@Mordenkain

I think that your Breakfast list is better than what is taking place in this thread because it already has the room for Counterbalance, Tarmogoyf, Top, and Stiflenought. The post-construction from this thread was to find space for all of those things, and it transforms into another deck postboard. Isn't that a bit distracting?

I see the strength of only one of the three pieces alone - Dreadnought, and it still needs Stifle or Bridge or Volrath's Shapeshifter to let it do its job. And after that, it is vulnerable to a single removal spell if unprotected.

Cephalid Breakfast is able to have all of its cards be at least somewhat useful without the combo. Only two cards are dead and must be Brainstormed back: Dread Return and Sutured Ghoul.

I know I may be a bit biased, but I feel that the three combo pieces in my deck "I Will Survive" are also useful individually, otherwise I would not have bothered to post the deck; I would have thought of it as too situational.

Having an alternate plan is great... but not when it is fumbling around for a 1cc 12/12 that dies to tons of removal. Instead, Cephalid Breakfast has a numerous alternate plans, and I Will Survive can play as an aggro Survival deck or an anti combo deck.

My matchup vs. Storm combo is difficult pre-board, and I know you play 4+ Stifle and 8 free counters, but how is your matchup vs. combo that is faster than you/me (turn 3 earliest for us)?

EDIT: I was typing the above while you were posting,

I think it's unfair to call this deck a "stripped down version of Breakfast". What's stripped down about it? Although the two can definitely be compared, I don't believe you can take one deck and say that it's strictly superior. Both decks have advantages, but this deck is still in the testing stage. Comparing a new concept to current Tier 1/1.5 decks stifles creativity and keeps the metagame stagnant.

I completely agree with you here

[Jaynel]

I think Lotus Petals really only add inconsistency to the deck for the sake of speed, which I don't think is that great. This is my list:

Mana (19):
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
4 Mosswort Bridge

Combo (11):
4 Protean Hulk
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Inner-Flame Acolyte
1 Dracoplasm
1 Volrath's Shapeshifter

Plan B (4):
4 Tarmogoyf

Disruption/Protection (13):
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Wipe Away

Tutor/Draw (13):
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Lim-Dul's Vault


Side:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Plague
3 Pithing Needle
4 Counterbalance
2 Engineered Explosives

Manabase: 19 lands feels right to me. As I said in the beginning of my post, I feel that Petals really don't add that much to the deck. It has the potential to speed up your clock one turn, but even if you do go turn 1 Mosswort Bridge, mise a Hulk from the top and you have a Dreadnought in hand you really should be able to wait one more turn, knowing that you're insanely lucky and your opponent will probably cast One with Nothing.

One thing that I would like to bring up is that a blind Mosswort Bridge isn't bad. You'll usually see something good, be it a Goyf or another Dreadnought (if not the Hulk). It also can clear chaff away from the top if you're REALLY digging for something.

Combo: Props to Wobbles for the Dracoplasm kill. It's fucking dirty.

Protection/Disruption: 4 Force, 4 Daze gives you an incredible edge against other combo decks. Stifle is also solid against Storm triggers and enemy Wastelands. Eats fetches if you have an extra, which is always nice.

Draw: Wow. This part is so crazy. I went with 7 fetches to get the awesome shuffling business. You will see a lot of your deck by turn 3-4 between the 10 cantrips, and LDV is simply awesome. It sets up rediculous stacks, or can just act as a Vampiric Tutor for UB.

You have a lot of room to sideboard into CountertopStiflenaught.dec since you run 10 solid cantrips. This plan can really help dodge the graveyard hate that people might bring in. Plague is for the Goblins match, but is also relevent against Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid. Grip comes in against control packing Pernicious Deed /Humilty/Moat/etc. EE is awesome against Dragon Stompy and Stax.

iOWN, mad props for coming up with this awesome concept. Good luck in the contest!

[Afro]

I also don't understand why this deck is the second coming of the messiah, but I do think iOWN has put two known-ideas together that work very well. I do not mean to put down iOWN, but rather I want to express that I think that there are many many (though not all) creative decks in this contest currently (and I don't just biased-ly mean mine) that deserve consideration as well. To immediately shout "this deck won the contest" and "you hit the nail squarely on the head because nobody else comes close" etc. is not only unfair, but ignorantly discounting the other good submissions.

Don't be mad that since this got posted your deck has fallen off to the wayside. Your deck is good and is being tested equally by the judges. It isn't as if the Judges are coming in here and saying that this deck has won hands down. The Judges must test each deck equally. I have always loved your decks (esp Horror.dec) but to come in here and post this just seems like your upset that your new deck isn't getting attention.


As for transformational sideboards are they necessary now that the consensus is to switch to the Darco kill?

[Finn]

I'm with Jaynel on this in the most important way. Lotus Petals are an element of a pure combo deck. The rest of this deck is not that. It has the capacity to be very controllish. It also has room for some aggro elements. If you choose either of those, the petals are bad news. I still think you guys are cutting too many lands. It detracts from the resilience.

And may I recommend Trickbind for the matchup against control. If they counter Stifle, you just got 2-for-1'ed. If they let Dreadnought resolve figuring they will, and you Trickbind, they are screwed.

[nightbringer]

nightbringer: For what specific reason don't you play basics? I rarely get screwed by color, because the deck doesn't really have many color requirements.

When i was first testen the deck i had some problems getting my green (i was testing a version that ran white instead of black) so i added more duals to make a U/G version and this is what came out of it.

My meta does not dus that many waste and i can handle them with the stifles.
I gues its mostly personal but im happy with the manabase like it is.You can take out some shockduals for basic i gues.

And may I recommend Trickbind for the matchup against control. If they counter Stifle, you just got 2-for-1'ed. If they let Dreadnought resolve figuring they will, and you Trickbind, they are screwed.

I have been testing these and i must say im very happy with them.
They rule against ***** wich is a bad matchup (the white version is the worst) i think.