Finn: Interesting point. Indeed, when I need to start laying down Tarmogoyfs, Lotus Petal would be much better as a land. I guess most are agreeing on the removal of Lotus Petal, so I'll start some experimental testing without it.
nightbringer: Threshold isn't a bad match-up. I've tested it the most out of anything else, and although it's thought-intensive and can go either way, I never find it to give me any big problems. As I stated in the opening post (match-up section), Threshold is more even to slightly favorable. Keep in mind, we tested several matches beforehand against different match-ups until the list felt right. The samples in the opening post come only from the games with that list.
Edit --
Jaynel: Your list looks strong! I gather that the additional cantrips help you to hit lands more often. How often are you actually using Wipe Away, though? Does it really get the job done?
Last edited by iOWN; 01-12-2008 at 09:11 PM.
I have quite the same (rather blind I conceide) opinion than Mordenkain. The deck looks very comparable to Cephalid Breakfast in its caracteristic:
- combo deck than can randomly go the aggro way
- it has quite a lot of disruption/protection
- it is highly easily disruptable. Every hate in legacy compromise the combo part of the deck, if the deck failed to protect it.
I'm not an expert of Cephalid Breakfast but it happened that most of my builds had no problem against it, and I never got impressed by the deck. It was hyped also a lot and now it's going down. By transitivity, I think that the concept is sexy too but not better than the breakfast's.
OK, so I'm back from the weekly tournament at the Frog. I'll grant you that since there were only 13 people there, my making Top8 is no big thing. However, given the ability to play the deck in a tournament setting, it's allowed me to see a great deal of the power intrinsic in the design. First though, the list.
Mana - 20
4 Mosswort Bridge
2 Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
Meat - 16
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Protean Hulk
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
Combo - 3
1 Dracoplasm
1 Volrath's Shapeshifter
1 Inner-Flame Acolyte
Protection - 11
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Cabal Therapy
Other - 10
4 Brainstorm
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Pernicious Deed
Sideboard
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Engineered Plague
2 Blue Elemental Blast
Let me start with discussing some things.
1) Lotus Petal is not very good in this deck. You need lands. 20 is a very good number for me, and I liked it. Mosswort Bridge is only half a land, so it's more like you're playing 18. Coming into play tapped is a bit of a downer, but it's still necessary while being good at the same time.
2) Tarmogoyf is insane. He would let me get up to 10 power on the table and allow me to activate Mosswort Bridge without using a Dreadnought. By extension, that allowed me to be significantly more free with my uses of Bridge. I would hide many things like extra Dreadnoughts, Counterbalance, Lim-Dul's Vault, and Pernicious Deed under them. They were amazing.
3) Pernicious Deed. This card is truly ridiculous. Besides being solid against many decks in the format, he's an excellent answer to much of the hate directed against the deck. It also allows you to "Rock" your opponent out by playing cards like 'Goyf, Therapy, Dark Confidant, Deed, and countermagic, and get the win that way.
4) The lack of Benevolent Bodyguard/Vigilant Martyr. I don't think that guy is necessary. With the addition of Therapy, and the combination of Force, your opponent is probably already having a difficult time executing his strategy. I don't like the wasted space, and honestly, the deck shouldn't need him.
5) The addition of Therapy was a solid choice. I now have enough extraneous creatures (in Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf) to effectively use it. Also, it sacrifices Protean Hulk in a pinch. More importantly though, is the fact that it clears all of the Swords/countermagic nonsense out of your opponents hand to effectively execute whichever one of you're strategies your going for.
6) Dark Confidant. This is probably one of the more odd choices. However, with Vault, and Brainstorm, I'd rarely get domed for too much. Sure I got hit for seven ONCE (still won that game). But more likely, you'll take one or two or possibly zero. His card advantage, if unchecked, will put you on the fast track to pursuing whichever course of action you want. Whether it be protecting and riding Stifle-Nought, or going for the combo, Dark Confidant will certainly help.
The sideboard was a little odd. The Counter/Top configuration allows you to exactly match your maindeck combo (7 for 7) so that post board grave hate is worthless. Since I was uncertain of the Goblins matchup, I had Plagues and Blast. I was worried about Dragon Stompy, and thus the Blasts and the extra Deed would come in. Ichorid might be a problem, and thus Jailers would be useful. Turns out that you have an abundance of hate against Breakfast with this board though. As 13 of your 15 are useful against them. Huh. Cool. It's probable that the sideboard needs work, but I do know that 7 of those should stay Counter/Top.
I'd be more than willing to replace Dark Confidant in the maindeck, but I do think that it should remain a creature. Getting to 10 power to activate Bridge, or flashing back Therapy are too useful to ignore. It's also important to note that after transforming to Counter/Top Stifle/Nought post board, Dark Confidant is good in that deck.
So anyway, those are my suggestions. I'm incredibly happy with the deck and will certainly be playing it for the Running GAGG. I'll certainly supply a full tournament report along with whatever changes to the decklist/sideboard I've made at that point as well.
So, suggestions? Criticisms? Questions? I'd be more than happy to discuss changes that I've made here.
Last edited by Deep6er; 01-13-2008 at 03:44 AM. Reason: Grammar.
Deep6er, I really like your list. Can I get a quick tournament report? I'm really interested to hear how this deck played in 4(?) rounds of swiss.
I helped Deep6er test this list after the tournament today and he was up 5-1 against Goblins when we ended. The matchup from the Goblins perspective seems very difficult. The problem Goblins has most is against big creatures (read as Tarmogoyf) and combo decks (read as StifleNaught or the whole combo with Protean Hulk). I don't see Goblins being very good against this deck, but its possible that sideboard cards like Krosan Grip could be a bit of a problem, though Tarmogoyf still seems like a house even if you prevent them from going off.
Sure, it's not a big deal though. (EDIT: This is in reference to Mental's post. NOT Anwar's. He posted while I was still typing.)
Round 1: Andrew Berke playing Cephalid Breakfast with Kiki Kill.
Game 1: He opens first turn Vial, second turn Counterbalance, third turn Top, fourth turn, Nomads + Illusionist. Hmm, beating.
I boarded in all 13 cards here. It was ridiculous.
Game 2: I open with Top go. He does the same. I play a turn 2 Counterbalance that he Forces pitching Narcomoeba, I Force back pitching a Brainstorm, and then he Forces AGAIN pitching Illusionist. So, he has basically no cards, I resolve Stifle-Nought, and beat the shit out of him.
Game 3: He opens on Vial. I manage to drop a Deed, and we get into a bit of a standoff. He's looking for Illusionist, whereas three of my lands are Bridges. Underneath is a Counterbalance, Yixlid Jailer, and Pernicious Deed. Finally, I manage to hit a Dreadnought. I've flushed the countermagic out of his hand through earlier Counterbalances, and Dreadnought resolves. With his trigger on the stack, I drop a Counterbalance, and Yixlid Jailer into play. Then I stifle the trigger. I was trying to see if he had anymore countermagic, and I wanted to play around Krosan Grip. Anyway, I go on to win that one.
Round 2: Parcher with Dragon Stompy
Game 1: He gets kind of a slow opening. He says he doesn't know what I'm playing (even though I've already told him, and other people have confirmed it). Anyway, he opens with Chalice for 1. I Force. Next turn, he drops a Gathan Raiders (morphed). I drop a land and pass. He swings without unmorphing, and drops a second one. I drop a land and Deed and pass. He swings for 4 and passes. I hit my fourth land drop and pass. He drops a Jitte on one of his raiders swings, and passes. I miss my fifth land drop but am sitting on a Brainstorm. So, I pass. He swings for 4 again, and passes. I Brainstorm, hit the land, play the land and pass. He swings, I Deed for 5, then he drops Chalice at 2. We play draw go for awhile, but he drops a Chalice for 1 (which both of us forget would have been countered by the Chalice at 2) and now I can't play Magic. He hits a Raiders, but I manage to hardcast a Protean Hulk as I'm at 1. Next few turns I play another Hulk at which point he flashes in his Sulfur Elemental. The next turn, I drop another one to which he manages to drop another Raiders. Finally, after he drops a Spirit Guide, I die.
I board in 2 Blasts and the Deed for the three combo pieces. I'm reasonably certain that he's bringing in Crypts, so the combo-kill is dead, but I can still Hulk up a bunch of Tarmogoyfs/Dreadnoughts.
Game 2: He mulls to five, while I mull to a good six. I open with Sea, Trop, 'Goyf, Force, Force, Deed. I go land pass, while he goes land, mox, pass. I draw Force for my turn, and drop 'Goyf. He goes for Magus on his turn, which I Force, and passes. I draw another Force (yes, that's all four), and swing and pass. He tries for Blood Moon (and Crypt which is irrelevant) which I Force again. I draw Blast for my turn, swing and pass. On his turn, he goes all out for Slogger, whom I then blast. Ouch. How lucky.
Game 3: This one is fuzzy. There was little action in the early game, and most of what I remember centers around this play. I have Deed, 'Goyf, 'Goyf. He has Slogger and Sulfur Elemental. My 'Goyfs are only 3/4's, but if I activate Deed, they become 5/6's. He swings in. After attackers are declared, but before blockers I activate Deed. Now, it's important to mention that he only has 19 cards left in his library. My newly large 'Goyfs block his Slogger and Elemental, and I end with a 'Goyf left. I proceed to ride that 'Goyf to victory.
Round 3 was a draw. With Jesse Hatfield.
Top 8
Happy Gilmore playing a slightly different version of UGR Thrash.
Game 1: He has nothing going on. He Snares an early Tarmogoyf, but an unthreshed Mongoose is only going for 1 at a time. I manage to hit a Bridge and hide a good card underneath it. However, all I'm drawing are Stifles. Finally, I hit a Dreadnought. So, I play the Dreadnought, with his trigger on the stack, I activate the Bridge. He Stifles. I respond with Stifling my trigger, he Forces, and I Stifle again. a 3/3 against a 12/12. Not very fair.
I make a mistake boarding here. I left in the Hulks and took out the combo. However, I also boarded out the Therapies. I should have just straight switched the combo for the Counter/Top configuration (or actually even better would have been NOT to board it in, but that's a different argument altogether).
Game 2: This game was hard. I found a Deed, but he had the Grip. He'd used an Ancient Grudge on my Top when I flipped it, and I couldn't resolve a Tarmogoyf or Counterbalance.
Game 3: Here things are aggravating. I kept a double Bridge, 'Goyf, Brainstorm, Stifle, Deed, Top hand. It may have been a bad keep, but I figure with 20 lands, it might not be terrible since I still have action in the form of 'Goyf/Top, and I can still hit a land for Brainstorm. Basically, I lose this game from here. While I manage to play a bit of Magic (the land comes 2 turns after and Top was Forced) that was an awful keep. I'm reasonably certain that had I not misboarded, and if I hadn't made the mistake with keeping, I could definitely have been in it. However, that one was my bad. Oh well.
On another note, I 5-1'd Goblins after the tournament. AnwarA101 and I were doing some testing, and it turns out that 'Goyf + StifleNought is insane against them. The beatdown plan is incredible. Then, even if they deal with that, you can just combo them out. Or use Deed. Damn, that card is good. After the results there, I may just turn the other two Plagues into Blue Blasts (which help against Dragon Stompy AND Goblins) and see if that makes for a better board. But yeah, that's about it.
Last edited by Deep6er; 01-13-2008 at 02:46 AM. Reason: Clarification.
First of all, thanks for taking it to a tournament! I still lack Underground Seas, so I haven't been able to completely build it so far. It makes sense that 'Goyf gives the Goblins match a boost. In fact, one of the reasons that the Goblins match was close in testing was that they could often get multiple pieces of removal before I could combo, which forced me to play without it. Dracoplasm completely ignores Burn which is awesome. Lastly, after testing out a full 20 lands, I am agreeing with everybody who has already replaced the Petals. The lands do give a boost in both the ability to set up, and the ability to combo other routes, and as a result a boost in consistency.
I have also been toying around with the maindeck Confidants, and I'm visualizing your points more clearly. Confidant is actually really good in this deck, but I was trying something more similar to Jaynel's list with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 3 Tutor/LDV. Ponder is amazing, and also made Confidant safer to play. However, in order to run the library manipulation and Confidant, I had to replace 'Goyf. Confidant shined, but 'Goyf is better in a multitude of match-ups, so for now, I'm keeping the Confidants sideboard or cut.
Slightly random, but was Deed often used to clear multiple CMCs?
Edit -- Given that you've cut Bodyguard, wouldn't Flame-Kin Zealot be better than Acolyte?
Last edited by iOWN; 01-13-2008 at 12:51 PM.
It seemed that you boarded out the combo a lot. In what match ups is it the correct choice for it to remain in?
@ iOWN: I don't think Ponder is the strongest choice for inclusion. Confidant's ability to solidly put you ahead (and then have the combo for backup) is a strong advocate for his inclusion.
Yes, Deed was incredibly helpful. Besides killing two Gathan Raiders AND an Umezawa's Jitte, it's also helped in clearing a board of Aether Vial, Counterbalance and Nomads-En-Kor.
I've thought about changing it to Zealot, but I like the Acolyte more as he allows me to focus on the Dracoplasm, instead of having to hope that I have two Dreadnoughts left. As Dreadnought will frequently be the target of Extirpate, it seems safer to me somehow.
@Mental: When I was expecting certain kinds of grave hate, I would board out the combo. I was trying to determine if creating the virtual card advantage would be more useful than just keeping the combo out available. I'll admit that against Dragon Stompy, I certainly COULD have kept the combo in, as Crypt is useless. However, I felt that trading 3 of my cards, for 4 of his would probably be a better investment in a matchup where I'm trying to contain his explosive starts. Thus, creating a dead card for him would probably prove more valuable to me. In essence, I'll board out the combo against a bunch of decks, for two reasons.
1) Counter/Top's strength against it.
2) Virtual card advantage.
Why isn't the combo Dragonstorm + 4 Hellkites rather than Hulk ? It would be harder to foil, despite requiring one more slot and being a bit less blue (you don't want to rfg your combo bits anyway).
It also wouldn't need a sac outlet.
Alternative idea : Copy Artifact.
On the + side, it's blue, frees slots and could be useful with the main after additional design.
On the -, it's not instant-win and really needs the Dreadnought.
I think the core idea of Moss + Nought is very, very good but Flash's kill isn't the best imo for it.
You must also keep careful not to let the core idea become secondary to Tarmogoyf, Countertop and Stifle-Nought to keep the originality factor.
Because it cannot reliably make 3 storm count?Originally Posted by Puzzle
Also, Shapeshiter can be hardcasted as a creature, while non of your cards is not. On top of it, you combo requires 1 more slot and make confidants unplayable.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
Although I could care less about Confidant being unplayable here, you have a point against Dragonstorm.
What I mean mostly, though, is that there must be a better kill than Hulk. Maybe up the Deeds to 4, add Damnation, and play Biorythm, I don't know. I just feel that the Hulk kill is clumsy.
Maybe I don't see what's happening, but could somebody explain the combo to me? I dont' understand what the Inner-Flame dude does.
Hulk -> 4 Dreadnought + Tarmogofy is pretty sweet. But what is the combo win? I reckon it'll involve some sac'ing of Dreadnoughts, but I odn't see how you gain haste. Unless you're only going for a 12/12 Flier.
The E.P.I.C. Syndicate: I mean, if they play a lullaby for babies they should at least play the Monster Mash when somebody dies.
The inner-Flame guy gives haste...
Hope that helps zach.
I think what Puzzle is trying to say is that if you get to play a spell that you had to set up through much effort (and that still has to resolve), it may as well be one that wins the game without the graveyard. Biorythm is a good suggestion, but there may even be a few more(?) The current kill is vulnerable to hate that Biorythmn is not, and if you are already playing Pernicious Deed, then you would be in good shape. Biorythm can even kill opponents with infinite life, and can't even be stopped by burn in response, etc.
Funnily enough, Flores' deck for this Friday is an Extended combo deck involving EOT Rith's Charm, untap, attack with 3 saprolings, activate the White hideaway land to play Biorhythm ;)
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
I don't feel the Hulk combo is clumsy whatsoever. It takes three extra slots, only one of which is completely dead (Dracoplasm can be pitched to force or put under Bridge, Shapeshifter can easily become a Dreadnought or Hulk) and almost always wins. The only kind of hate that it is vulnerable to is graveyard hate, and I believe the only two cards are Leyline (prevents the Hulk trigger) and Extirpate (which can't be countered, and can remove Dreadnought). Even Extirpate can be played around by fetching something like triple 'Goyf. Any other 'yard hate isn't very effective and will only delay the kill a little.
Biorhythm won't win the game against a number of decks, and if you are counting on Deed before hand to win makes the combo even more complicated. Maybe in a deck that could win turn 1 or 2 consistently, Biorhythm would be worth running. The fundamental combo turns of MossNought are 3-4. There is no way to keep creatures off the board for that long. Seriously, Biorhythm is an interesting card, but it really has no advantages over the Hulk kill.
The Hulk kill also strikes fear into anyone who remembers the whole Flash fiasco.
Biorhythm is strictly worse than Hulk kill. It can easily be backfired, and many deck run more creature than this deck. I do admit that hulk is not a hottest looking card here, but It seems necessary evil to me.
Damnation does not fit the deck, either.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
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