[Deck] Demon Stompy (Black Chalice/Tomb Aggro)

[Phantom]

So, I figured Black Stompy could use a new thread since so much of the info is dispersed over several threads and is often outdated. While I do not think Demon Stompy has reached the level of its red or blue cousins, I think some recent printings and revelations have raised it to the point where it should no longer be ignored.

(mods, if you disagree with this feel free to simply merge this into the old thread)

Some topics of conversation:

1) Shriekmaw - This guy is a gift from the gods for this deck and what made me sit up and start thinking about Black Stompy as a contender. He's versatile. He's evasive. He's great for our curve. He answers Goyf.

2) Dark Ritual vs. Chalice - Dark Ritual can serve as this colors Seething song only better. The problem is the anti synergy with Chalice @1. Should we drop Ritual and maintain the shell? Should we just run both and ignore the possible anti synergy? Should we banish Chalice to the board? Or should we drop Chalice completely and rely on blacks already strong disruption suite? (which leads me to...)

3) Discard - Mindscrew or Mindshatter I guess. This gives the deck an interesting and possibly devastating discard spell with great Trini synergy. I haven't tested it yet, but it looks promising.

4) Stinkweed Imp - I've never understood why Black Stompy didn't take advantage of this guy. Recursive, evasive beaters that double as removal and have synergy with Tombstalker seem sweet to me, although it may depend on the equipment count.

5) Tomb of Urami and Urborg, Tomb of Yag - Both add a little spice to the mana base and are quite versatile. Not sure about the correct number of each in a meta where Moons and Wastes abound. 2 and 3 maybe? 2 and 2?

6) Tombstalker - WAY too powerful not to run as at least a 3-of IMO.

7) Equipment - I figure 3 Jittes is a must thanks to all the life loss. Tons of other options here. Both Swords. Loxodon Warhammer. Even O-Naginita is in the mix if we nix Chalice. I guess it depends on how we fill out the rest of the beater slots. Segue to...

8) Big Negs - Not a great meta for him, but this may be the deck Phyrexian Negator can shine in. Tomb based aggro decks have always had a bit of "all-in" in them and this guy ups that quotient. I guess it depends on our removal options and your meta. I like him in theory, but we'll see.

9) Board Disruption - We've talked discard but these Stompy decks have always run permanent disruption. Chalice is on the fence (though I'm leaning towards yes) and Trini seems pretty great (though it has equally crappy synergy with ritual). Thorn of Amethyst is a good replacement for Chalice if it comes to it (for the board I guess). The one that really has me perplexed is Nether Void. Far and away the most powerful lock piece, but also the most symmetrical. The thing locks up games like no other but is also completely dead with bad board position. I like the synergy with Tomb, I just feel that that is a different deck. I just don't know here. Hopefully testing will help this decision.

10) Preboarding- Black has an interesting option which I'm not sure many people have considered. Black has access to two of the best sideboard cards in the meta (Leyline and Plague) which also happen to fit perfectly into our curve. Has the metagame reached a point where either (or both) are maindeckable (giving us some amazing preboard numbers and even more hate in from the side)? Probably not, but it's something to keep in mind.

11) Other beaters (and my thoughts):

- Bane of the Living (love it)
- Grinning Demon, Juzam Djinn, Phyrexian Scuta, Plague Sliver (like the size, hate the lack of evasion and self damage)
- Priest of Gix (I personally don't like him because unlike CoF he provides no accel and is occasionally terrible. Dropping a 2/1 down before a lock piece has never seemed that great. Perhaps in an equipment heavy build?)
- Skittering Horror (4 mana for a boltable, non evasive 4/3 with a drawback)
- Plague Spitter (slowly Wraths Goblins if they don't kill it. Not crazy about the self damage or self destruction)
- Chimeric Idol, Juggernaut, Phyrexian Totem (none pitch to Mox. Juggs interesting, but not fantastic in any way. Totem also seems decent, but not sure I want to activate it every turn.)
- Nim Abomination (meh)
- Gathan Raiders (interesting)
- Demon's Jester (even more interesting)
- Soul Collector (crappy morph cost)
- Mindslicer (huh)
- Mercenary Knight (probably worse than Raiders. Turns StP into card advantage)
- Street Wraith (maybe if it had islandwalk. Interesting though)
- Graveborn Muse (not sure. Better than Confidant here, might be too vulnerable to removal to not cost )
- Twisted Abomination (probably too slow and way too expensive to die to bolt and not to always kill Goyf)
- Drinker of Sorrow (bleh)
- Phyrexian Rager (too much of a tempo loss for anything but equipment heavy builds from what I can tell)
- Avatar of Discord (too big a gamble even with Hellbents in the deck)
- Disciple of Malice (My own idea to fight StP hate. Too dependent on equipment as well I think)

12) Draw - I don't think the deck needs any non creature/equipment based draw. More importantly, I'm not sure there's anything great, just mediocre stuff like Arena and Scrying.

13) Recursion Engine - Recurring Nightmare. Oversold Cemetery. Volrath's Stronghold. Can this deck run any of these? Should it?

14) Other cards to consider/discuss:

- Profane Command (I like it, but it needs to be tested. Might be a windfall, might fall under the danger of cool things)
- Rend Flesh (great, great card for the deck but hopefully not necessary considering the creature base)

I'm thinking of testing something like this, should I ever find the time:

// Lands
6 [10E] Swamp (1)
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
3 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
3 [UD] Phyrexian Negator
3 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
3 [DIS] Demon's Jester
3 [LE] Bane of the Living

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [B] Dark Ritual
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [MOR] Mindscrew
3 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [LRW] Profane Command
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
(2 spots open for whatever I'm not thinking of)


That's all I've got for now. Would love to hear some thoughts on any of these subjects or the deck in general.

[Mental]

My thoughts:

Dark Ritual is too powerful not to run, as is Chalice. Both should be MB; Dark Rit is your opening play...why would you play it past T1 anyway? So fuck disynergy with Chalice.

You're list has too many 3 ofs and looks very unfocused. That said, I like what it is trying to do. Profane Command is awesome tech.

I hate Stinkweed Imp. It's inneficient and doesn't give a clock at all. So it reccurs...does it really matter?

I also think it's weird that Nether Void is being overlooked. That card is nuts IMO. In the last Demon Stompy thread, was it overlooked or overruled?

[Phantom]

You're list has too many 3 ofs and looks very unfocused. That said, I like what it is trying to do. Profane Command is awesome tech.

I hate Stinkweed Imp. It's inneficient and doesn't give a clock at all. So it reccurs...does it really matter?

I also think it's weird that Nether Void is being overlooked. That card is nuts IMO. In the last Demon Stompy thread, was it overlooked or overruled?

@ the 3 ofs: for testing purposes mostly although we run a lot of things I want 1 of, but not 2 of.

@ Stinkweed: It doesn't give a clock by itself, but any evasive beater with a Jitte or Sword on it is an impressive clock (thanks to old school FS, I've won a ton of games with 5/5 Cloud of Faeries and Sea Sprites). It's also removal (great against decks that run few creatures like Thresh) and the recursion (which gives us some sorely lacking game against Control). Lastly, it allows us to cast TS for . I guess I was just figuring that we run enough huge beaters that the decks that are going to give us problems will have ways to remove them. Of course this is all speculation at this point. Maybe it's not worth running without something else to take advantage of the cards in the yard.

@ Nether Void: No consensus at all was reached about this card. It was either the most broken or the most situational card in the deck. I'm going to test it in the Trini spot.

[Nihil Credo]

Here's my argument against Stinkweed Imp: what the hell is a Stompy deck doing blocking?

You run Cloud of Faeries in FS only because of the acceleration, and Sea Sprite because it is (was) great at wearing equipment in the face of Incinerators. Each of them furthers your game plan: beat face quickly with fat and/or equipped fliers. In which world, pray tell me, does Demon Stompy's gameplan involve sitting back?

Imp is a makeshift Maze of Ith. Who needs Maze of Ith here?

[Zork]

I've always thought that a black version of chalice aggro should take advantage of the fact that it has actual draw options, considering it has neither the explosive creatures (dragon), the aggro/disruption creatures (Magus of the Moon, Pestermite), nor the straight control (Force, Trinket toolbox) that the other colors have.

I would probably test something with max draw, max acceleration, and max disruption with more Tomb of Urami than Yawg.

Start with:

4 Graveborn Muse
4 Phyrexian Rager

4 Trinisphere
3 Nether Void
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Dark Rit
4 Mox

3 Jitte
2 Sofai (or maybe a 3/2 sword split for more draw)

3 Tomb of Urami

and build from there? I think it makes more sense for black to want to draw as much disruption as possible and just keep the big beats coming. Black has no need to get hellbent for dragon, and with less disruption pieces that win you the game, not drawing cards when options exist seems like a poor choice.

But then again I'm not sure black chalice aggro is viable, so it may be moot.

[Phantom]

Here's my argument against Stinkweed Imp: what the hell is a Stompy deck doing blocking?

You run Cloud of Faeries in FS only because of the acceleration, and Sea Sprite because it is (was) great at wearing equipment in the face of Incinerators. Each of them furthers your game plan: beat face quickly with fat and/or equipped fliers. In which world, pray tell me, does Demon Stompy's gameplan involve sitting back?

Imp is a makeshift Maze of Ith. Who needs Maze of Ith here?

Once again, don't take me as an Imp apologist (as he may be terrible), but here's my counterargument for my thinking:

- I've played every Stompy version EVER, and have blocked a ton with ALL of them. Sure, it's not the game plan, but the game plan often gets thrown out after your first 2/3 plays are stopped (through removal, counter, or whatever) while you are taking beats from a Goyf and you finally stick an Imp at 8 life.

- I used this example simply to show that the card can be a clock, but Imp actually reminds me of Sprite a bit. I won a lot of games on the back of Sprite thanks to his pro:red. All he had to do was live long enough to be equipped when his nasty weapon could take care of the killing. Well Imp doesn't have protection, he is simply resilient.

- Maze never hit anyone. Maze never carried a Jitte. Maze can't handle two Goyfs and come back for more.

Any thoughts on any other cards here?

[Mental]

Throwing this out there - What do you guys think of Dark Confidant?

[Phantom]

Throwing this out there - What do you guys think of Dark Confidant?

You could build something around him I guess, but my builds insanely high curve (ever flip a Tombstalker or Shriekmaw?) combined with already prodigious life loss (both Tombs) say absolutely not.

Run Graveborn Muse if you want a card every turn (why isn't turnly a word like daily?). Look at Zorks build for inspiration (who might be on to something).

[Meekrab]

Not sure how relevant it is to this deck, but apparently the errata on Priest of Gix was removed, which means Unearth/Reanimate/Recurring Nightmare/whatever else will give you mana. Could be useful?

[Illissius]

Just my intuition, but I think that if Demon Stompy wants a prayer of being superior to the Faerie and Dragon versions, it has to go completely balls-out on all the risky-but-powerful choices like Negator and Ritual; more Suicidal than Suicide. Otherwise, you end up with a deck that's safer, but also clearly less powerful than the other two. Stompy decks don't win on finesse. Maybe the risky choices end up sucking, but then you probably never had a chance of competing in the first place.

Other random thoughts:

- Is Mind Shatter better than Persecute? Can the deck afford to play cards at all? (If so: Braids?)

- What about Snuff Out? Pushes your early game tempo advantage (which is basically your entire game plan), clears the way for Negator, pitches to Mox if unneeded, and you can actually hardcast it pretty well.

- There are few things more badass than a Negator with a Sword swinging on turn two. (Most of them are played by the Dragon-oriented version of this deck).

[etrigan]

2) Dark Ritual vs. Chalice - Dark Ritual can serve as this colors Seething song only better. The problem is the anti synergy with Chalice @1. Should we drop Ritual and maintain the shell? Should we just run both and ignore the possible anti synergy? Should we banish Chalice to the board? Or should we drop Chalice completely and rely on blacks already strong disruption suite? (which leads me to...)

I toyed around with a Demon Stompy deck that aimed for Chalice @ 2, playing Dark Ritual, Duress, Thoughseize and O-Naginata. The disruption suite wasn't bad, but my unwillingness to play Jitte hurt the deck. (My creature base was something like Negator, Scuta, Juzam, Grinning Demon, and maybe Drinker of Sorrow. I dont remember.) I didn't pursue it very far.

You brought up Juggernaut. I generally dont like artifact guys in these decks, as you need all the colored cards you can for Chrome Mox. This may not be an issue for black however, as black's disruption cards are better than other colors', leading to playing less artifacts elsewhere in the deck.

Also, thinking about Juggernaut, if someone had a list incorporating The Abyss, that just might be the sexiest thing on earth.

[largebrandon]

I don't think stuff that cost BB is THAT big of a problem. It does have (if you play it) dark Ritual AND Urborg which helps.

I think you should splash red for Magus of Moon, FtK, or whatever. It will help with the disruption. This might seem quite silly, but you could SB Big Game Hunter (yeah look him up), and pitch him to Gathan Rider, pay madness and outright kill a goyf! :)

Also, for big beaters, you have Juzam Djinn, Juzam Sliver (whatever his name is), Phrexian Scuta.

[Arsenal]

Perhaps Guiltfeeder as a win condition? Tough to block due to Fear, outside of Bolt range, HATES on GY dependant decks (which is a fair portion of the meta), and is a reasonable casting cost. I've always liked him but never could fit him anywhere...

[Shimster]

As I already mentioned in the last thread, I've written a rather long Demon Stompy Primer. Although it's a German one, you can easily translate it into English via Babelfish (most of the sentences make sense, the rest ist understandable due to the context). You can find it here.

My current list looks like this (taken from the primer):

// Lands
10	Swamp
4	Ancient Tomb
4	City of Traitors
1	Tomb of Urami
 
// Creatures
4	Priest of Gix
4	Dauthi Marauder
4	Phyrexian Scuta
4	Shriekmaw
3	Graveborn Muse
2	Bone Shredder
	
// Spells
4	Chrome Mox
4	Chalice of the Void
4	Trinisphere
4	Loxodon Warhammer
4	Sword of Light and Shadow
 
// Sideboard
4	Engineered Plague
4	Pithing Needle
4	Leyline of the Void
3	Winter Orb

[Jak]

I always loved playing Demon Stompy because it was a control-aggro deck. Running a ton of accel to get the lock pieces out fast and then dropping a big beater to win. The problem with stompy decks is that they have no draw. This deck has the ability to have an awesome draw engine. Here is the list I would use.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Tomb of Urami
7 Swamp

4 Graveborn Muse
3 Phyrexian Scuta
4 Skittering Horror
2 Bane of the Living
4 Tombstalker

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Nether Void

4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

2 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Umezawa's Jitte

A card that I have been giving a lot of thought about for this version, is Bog Witch. You will have dead cards in hand like additional Trinis, Voids, Lands, and Accel and this will get you the mana you need to play more critters when you have Void out. I need to start testing it, but just throwing it out there.

[DieMyDarling]

Is Tombstalker really THAT powerful?
I mean the only card, you get into the yard of your own is the Ritual.
(ok, in the build with Hellbent he is)
When i tested the deck , i loved laying down all lock pieces ( including Nether Void) and winning with Tomb of Urami, of which i would play 3 at least.

I also liked grinning demon and Bane of the living, als they could both be played as morph ( with gathan riders it becomes even more good). If you fear the Damage or the non-evasion, run Loxodon Warhammer. I know Trample is not exactly evasion, but its still good.
If you dont run Chalice, you could think about running o Naginata as equipment.


p.s. Pls dont consider Sword of Light and SHadow , it suxx...

[Arsenal]

Although I'd run Warhammer over SoLS anyday of the week, the fact that SoLS saves your guy from the most prevalent spot removal spell in the format cannot be overlooked so easily. Also, having some form of recursion in SoLS is nice after a Bane of the Living resets the entire board.

[DieMyDarling]

Although I'd run Warhammer over SoLS anyday of the week, the fact that SoLS saves your guy from the most prevalent spot removal spell in the format cannot be overlooked so easily. Also, having some form of recursion in SoLS is nice after a Bane of the Living resets the entire board.

Well, after you used Bane of the Living There are 2 Possibilitys:

1. You Cleared the whole board. In that case SoLS Is useless als Recursion, cause there are no more Creatures on your Side.

2. You Killed the opponents Creatures, and you have left 1 or some big Guys.
In that case, you dont need the recursion .

[Arsenal]

That was just one example. My point was that having any sort of recursion, after you take heavy losses from either side, is nice. The fact that it makes your guys almost unkillable in the red zone is an added bonus (+2/+2 makes the chances of your guys surviving combat far greater than +3/+0).

But Warhammer fulfills the "aggro" portion of aggro-control much better than SoLS (a card that gets better the longer the game goes on). But conversely, SoLS fulfills the "control" portion of aggro-control much better than Warhammer... and SoLS makes your guys StP proof (which is a big deal).

[largebrandon]

That was just one example. My point was that having any sort of recursion, after you take heavy losses from either side, is nice. The fact that it makes your guys almost unkillable in the red zone is an added bonus (+2/+2 makes the chances of your guys surviving combat far greater than +3/+0).

But Warhammer fulfills the "aggro" portion of aggro-control much better than SoLS (a card that gets better the longer the game goes on). But conversely, SoLS fulfills the "control" portion of aggro-control much better than Warhammer... and SoLS makes your guys StP proof (which is a big deal).

I agree that STP proofing your dude is very important. With the +2/+2, it will be harder to burn, so SoFI isn't as needed.