I think the point of MaximumC is that (while common sense) its not clearly defined so you might get in troubles...Originally Posted by Dice_Box
“Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
You might be fine, but you might not be. And if you got a Slow Play warning, you would not be able to appeal it successfully. "Slow play" does not mean "delaying the game" or even "taking a long time." It means taking actions that do not advance the board state, and historically starting with a randomized library and returning to a randomized library is not seen as advancing the board state.
Remember, I've been told the judges' forum has already discussed and already decided on this issue.
Correct, and I've heard of judges who made arguments like these to excuse The Four Horseman as long as they were, say, putting more and more narcomebias into play. I do think it's a grey area. But, the general consensus among the judging community appears to be that these kind of incidental changes are not enough to "advance the game state."
Remember, too, I've asked some judges to speak publicly about this issue and give us some black and white understanding of "advancing the board state." I was told to go away, basically.
Right, that's the problem.
To put the issue in sharper relief, consider another indeterminate event chain (not even a loop) - the Frenetic Efreet / Chance Encounter combo. Holding priority, you can put as many Efreet activations on the stack as you want to. Then, you let them resolve, and you need to flip a coin for each activation. You need to flip enough coins that you make sure you have 10 wins on the flip so that Chance Encounter allows you to win during your next upkeep. So, you'd want to choose an arbitrarily high number. Trouble is, you then have to tell how many flips you are winning so you know exactly how many counters Chance Encounter is getting.
I proposed this to a judge once, explaining my concept would be to have a cube of D6 and roll them, 10 at a time, 5 times, constituting 50 activation in order to resolve such a stack in a reasonable amount of time. I was told that this, too, could provoke a slow play penalty because putting more and more Efreet activations on the stack is not advancing the game state -- even though it's clear I'm going for a win. I imagine other judges would feel differently.
Simply put, the IPG plays very, very, poorly with indeterminate loops or effects like these, and you need to bear that in mind when you think about these kind of decks.
Ultimately it's up to the Head Judge of whatever event you play in. Weekly at your LGS? It's probably fine. SCG Open? Better have a backup plan.
While I don't think this is nearly as big of a nondeterministic rules headache as Four Horsemen is, if you're framing it as an infinite loop, chances are, the judge will draw the comparison to 4H and say no. This is likely why you're getting the cold shoulder already; as you're proposing a loop that looks like it plays out in a very similar way. I don't think these judges are giving you a fair shake, but I think it's because to them, it looks like you're trying to break the game. Maybe you are, but there are ways to NOT do that as well.
The combo actually reminds me a lot more like another Dakmor Salvage combo: Seismic Swans. With Swans, you have enough lands in your deck to deal 20 damage as you combo off so you don't need to run Emrakul to reshuffle (and if you did draw it, it's useless). You also advance the game state by damaging your opponent, so even a quick Emrakul flip obviously won't get you called for Slow Play.
It all lies in your discard outlet. If you use Wild Mongrel/Psychatog, then increasing its power/toughness post-blockers is certainly advancing the game state. Not something you'll be going infinite with, but it'll draw you a bunch of cards. You mill Emrakul, and you get more fuel in your deck for your beater (and in the case with Tog, you can exile nonlands you don't need anymore from your graveyard for more consistency). The Skirge Familiar route to Emrakul is fuzzier space though, because you have to somehow get Emrakul in hand, and running through your deck to find it while reshuffling is a nondeterministic process. If you run Worldly Tutor, Fierce Empath, or Eye of Ugin (+ Loam!), you can find an Emrakul a lot easier and potentially avoid the penalty altogether.
I think its safe to try a Gro build with Mongrel/Tog, possibly including a combo kill as a secondary win, and see where it goes. Starting right off in combo territory will get you in hot water eventually, but I'm optimistic that it can work if done right.
Just play Seismic Assault as your discard outlet and you win instantly, I'm not sure what the big deal is.
But then you have a half decent deck. Defeats the point of playing a shit as fuck 5 drop really.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
A few pages back there was discussion of Sakura-Tribe Scout plus Quirion Ranger being a combo. Did people totally forget about the "Use this ability only once each turn" clause, or am I missing something?
An actual janky combo is:
Sakura-Tribe Scout + Retreat to Coralhelm + Simic Growth Chamber
Add a second Retreat for infinite scrying, a Lotus Cobra or Amulet of Vigor or a second Retreat and a mana critter for infinite mana, or whatever.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
Hooray, its' Eldritch Moon time!
Blessed Alliance + [cards]Birds of Paradise[/card] + A Dork with Dual Casting
So you cast your Blessed Alliance kicked to gain 4 life and untap 2 critters. Tap your Birds for R, then tap your dork to copy Blessed Alliance. Copy resolves, untapping both creatures and gaining you one life. Rinse and repeat for ALL THE LIFES. Special bonus - Alliance is a serviceable piece of removal all on its own. Good times!
You can mix'n'match the creatures, too. The important thing is that one critter taps for the mana needed to let the other one copy the ability. So you might use something that taps for 2U or RU (I don't know, figure it out!) and Izzet Guildmage / Meletis Charlatan,
Blessed Alliance + Mirror Sheet + TWO dorks who tap for 1 U/R U/R combined!
Hey look it's the same combo with more pieces and more bad pieces.
Tree of Perdition + Turn//Burn (or similar)
Simple stuff: make the tree's toughness 1 or 2 and then burn out your opponent. This works with any toughness-setting effect. I like Turn//Burn particularly because you can use the other half of the card to burn out your opponent (not with the same card, with a second one).
[cards]Bloodbriar[/card] + Ghave, Guru of Spores
Ghave is not exactly hard up for friends; his first one, Kabal Ghoul, was born in the 1990s. And his cheapest friend is a beetle who costs only B. But, hey, EDH needs all the redundancy it can get!
Eldritch Evolution + Vine Dryad or Skyshroud Cutter
Play a 4-drop for free and then turn it into any 6 drop in your deck. You know what is a 6-drop? Dragonlords, Sire of Insanity, and all sorts of nutty cards. Yes, Allosaurus works this way too, but it requires you to pitch 2 green cards from your hand, which is really terrible.
Spell Queller + Eldrazi with "process"
Exile a spell, then eat that spell. I don't know if it was mentioned in this thread yet, but [cards]Uba Mask[/card] similarly gives your Eldrazi the chance to eat your opponent's brains.
Eternal Scourge + Food Chain
The Misthollow Griffin combo just got easier to cast! Infinite Mana for all. I don't know if a 3/3 for 3 is better than a Phantom Monster you can cast after you pitch it to Force of Will. Still, this card is very interesting and might lead to a Food Chain combo deck that does not rely on blue at all.
Geier Reach Sanitarium + Notion Thief
"2: You draw two cards. Your opponent discards a card."
This is a good effect.
Other silly possibilities to go infinite with Blessed Aliance is with Izzet Guildmage or Echo Mage.
Cryptbreaker plus Intruder Alarm and Rooftop Storm can go pretty crazy.
Liliana's Elite could work as a kill condition in fluctuator or some similar fill the graveyard combo deck.
Tree of Perdition made me think of Tree of Redemption:
Tree of Redemption + Wall of Blood+Phyrexian Collossus+Thermo-Alchemist + 9 life is a necrotic ooze pile.
Which reminds me:
Millikin + Pili-Pala + hasty Necrotic Ooze mills the library for some kind of ooze finish.
Harmless offering is a drop-in replacement for Donate so it works with Thought Lash,Embargo, Demonic Pact or whatever.
Splendid Reclamation + Valakut + mountains
Also:
Meekstone
Embargo
Back to Basics
New set! Good set! Red set! Blue set!
Conspiracy: Get The Throne or whatever is upon us, and it is glorious. So now, without further ado:
ETERNAL MASTERS 2 - COMBOS
Palace Jailer + blink
Really, all of the Monarch cards are quite nice with a blink or bounce effect, but this one is especially nice because it Oblivion Ring's the opponent's dorks each time it ETB. Unlike Fiend Hunter and the like, you keep those critters exiled as long as you want -- provided no one hits you with another creature -- and you can keep doing it. This is probably more of a strong synergy than a combo, but when you consider that removing creatures makes it harder for you to get hit and stop being the monarch in the first place, this guy is really strong. With a blink outlet he almost becomes an engine onto himself.
Recruiter of the Guard + Aluren
Recruiter is a more-different version of Imperial Recruiter, and has the same application with a few tweaks. Here's one possible line to infinite life, for example:
1. Resolve a four-mana green enchantment in Legacy. (Aluren)
2. Drop Recruiter for free; get a Man'o'War
3. Drop Man'o'War for free, bounce Recruiter.
4. Drop Recruiter for free, get Cavern Harpy.
5. Drop Cavern Harpy for free, bounce Man/o'War
6. Drop Man'o'War for free, bounce Recruiter.
7. Drop Recruiter for free, get Spike Feeder.
8. Drop Feeder for free,
Now repeat the following:
1. Pull 2 counters off Feeder to gain 2 life.
2. Pay 1 life to return Cavern Harpy to your hand.
3. Replay Harpy for free, bounce Man'o'War
4. Replay Man'o'War for free, bounce Feeder.
5. Replay Feeder for free.
Each time around the loop you gain 1 life.
Selvala, Heart of the Wilds + Umbral Mantle
Just like Veridian Joiner, Selvala goes infinite with Umbral Mantle. Put the mantle on Selvala. Then:
1. Pay G and tap Selvala for GG.
2. Pay 1GG to untap Selvala using Mantle and give her +3/+0.
3. Pay G to tap Selvana for GGGGG.
... and so on.
This also works with other untap artifacts like Staff of Domination and several others.
Of course, you need something to do with all the mana you get, so...
Splitting SLime + Infinite mana
Yet another win condition for EDH decks who want to make infinite mana. Infinite mana = infinite 6/6s.
Kaya, Ghost Assassin + Containment Priest
Kaya gives you a free blink each turn on top of her other abilities. This is fine for recyling ETB abilities and the like, but it's especially nasty with Containment Priest because the Priest will prevent the target from ever returning.
Kaya, Ghost Assassin + Surprise Deployment
Any card that puts creatures into play temporarily, like Surprise Deployment or Shallow Grave or Goryo's Vengence or whatever, combos hard with Kaya. Her blink costs no mana and results in a creature who does not leave at end of turn. Works with tons of cards too numerous to mention!
Leovold, Emmisary of Trest + Wheel of Fortune
Not much to see here, but Leo does what Spirit of the Labyrith does for cheaper and Notion Thief does for better with an additional protective ability.
Spy Kit + Mask of the Mimic
I won't list off EVERY card that combos with Spy Kit; basically use gather to look up "card named" and you'll find most of them pretty readily. Mask is my favorite, though.
Have two creatures, one equipped with Spy Kit. Cast Mask targeting the one with the Kit, sacrificing the other. You can now get any non-legendary monster out of your deck for free. Blightsteel Collosus, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Inkwell Leviathan, Worldspine Wurm... whatever.
Last edited by MaximumC; 08-26-2016 at 11:59 AM.
Here's another silly one:
creature (1cc or more), Eldrich Evolution, and Fork (or similar) -> Fetch a Dualcaster Mage and Phantasmal Images (using the copy trigger) and finish with Hellraiser Goblin and Heartlash Cinder.
Interesting. Let me see if I can break that down...
(1) Cast Eldrich Evolution with X >= 3
(2) Cast Fork targeting Evolution (both on stack)
(3) Resolve Fork copy. Retrieve a Dualcaster Mage.
(4) Dualcaster ETB, copy Eldrich Evolution.
(5) Repeat this process to dig out all the Dualcasters and Clone effects in your deck.
(6) Wind up with 4 Dual Casters and 4+ Clones of Dualcasters in play.
(7) Resolve the last copy effect to get Hellraiser Goblin.
(8) Resolve the original Evolution to get Heartlash Cinder.
...even so, this only involves attacking with 9 2/2s and a non-evasive 20/20 that can be chumped. Im sure we can do better than that. After all, our deck is apparently already full of 2 and 3 drops, and the combo requires 5 mana to go off (6 if we start with a Dualcaster). So, how about this instead:
(1) Cast Eldrich Evolution with X >= 4
(2) Cast Fork targeting Evolution (both on stack)
(3) Resolve Fork copy. Retrieve a Dualcaster Mage.
(4) Dualcaster ETB, copy Eldrich Evolution.
(5) Repeat this process to dig out all the Dualcasters and Clone effects in your deck.
(6) Wind up with 4 Dual Casters and 4+ Clones of Dualcasters in play.
(7) Resolve the last copy effect to get Flamekin Zealot.
(8) Resolve the original Evolution to get Ordic, Master Tactician
This way, we're attacking with 9 3/3s, a 4/5, and a 3/3, all unblockable. Seems like that is better.
EDIT: Indeed, this seems pretty not-terrible at all to me. The combo package is fat, sure, but we could make that work. Let's see.
Mana Dorks (8)
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Bloom Tender
Creatures (10)
4 Dualcaster Mage
4 Phantasmal Image
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Odric, Master Tactician
Combo Spells (8)
4 Eldritch Evolution
2 Fork
2 Twinflame
Other Stuff: (11)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Gut Shot
1 Noxious Revival
3 Red Elemental Blast
Manas (22)
I'm pretty sure it's a bad deck.
I'd think Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary or Devoted Druid would be better than Bloom Tender.
At X=4 you can chain through Dack's Duplicate so that the clones are hasty.(With Restoration Angel and 2xDack's Duplicate you can even make bodies with infinite dethrone.)
Edit 3: With EE X=4 it is possible to go infinite... though it's silly.
Cast Eldrich Evolution (X>=4), Cast Fork (Copying EE)
Fetch Dualcaster Mage, (Copy EE with the trigger)
Fetch Gigantoplasm (Copy Dualcaster, Copy EE)
Fetch Phantasmal Image (Copy Gigantoplasm copying Dualcaster Copy EE) ->
Activate Phantasmal image with X=0 to kill it.
Fetch Driver of the Dead (Reanimate Phantasmal Image, copy Gigantoplasm(Dualcaster) Copy EE),
Activate Phantasmal Image, X=0 to kill it.
Fetch Gigantoplasm #2 (Copy Driver of The Dead, Reanimate PI, Copy Gigantoplasm copying Dualcaseter, Copy EE) ->
Fetch Purphoros, God of the Forge
Fetch Phantasmal Image [trigger 2 damage to the opponent from Purphoros] (Copy Gigantoplasm (copying Driver of the Dead), reanimate the other Phantasmal Image.)
With the reanimation trigger on the stack activate the Phantasmal Image with X = 0 to kill it.
It's probably better to use Dack's Duplicate to produce a bunch of hasty Restoration Angels copies.
Last edited by rufus; 09-24-2016 at 09:05 PM. Reason: Doesn;t work.
2/8/5
Cast Painter's Servant, naming Green
Cast Woodland Bellower.
Fetch Phantasmal Image, copying Woodland Bellower.
Fetch Phantasmal Image, copying Woodland Bellower.
Fetch Phantasmal Image, copying Woodland Bellower.
Fetch Phantasmal Image, copying Woodland Bellower.
Fetch Hellraiser Goblin. Swing for 32.
Last edited by BooleanLobster; 09-25-2016 at 11:51 AM.
You need Painter's Servant (green) to work that. Bellower only fetches non-legendary green creatures.
Dammit, I read the card like 6 times and still didn't see that.
A better (mono-green) use of Bellower is part of a chain to win off of Food Chain with Llanowar Empath.
Cast Empath, fetch Bellower.
Sac empath and pay 2, cast Bellower and fetch Empath.
Sac Bellower for 7G
Cast Empath, fetch bellower.
Cast Bellower, get Empath. (G left in pool)
Sac two bellowers and empath for a total of 19G mana in pool.
Cast empath (16 mana left) fetch Emrakul, winnar.
You mean Fierce Empath not Llanowar Empath.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Correct-o-mondo.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote