Since we're ATM discussing
a) the "uselessness of multiple Brainstorms"
b) the importance of animation speed, opening hands and muligan decisions
c) budget lists
I would like to...well..REANIMATE the notion of a "mono-black" Reanimator budget list. For less than half the price, you can get more than half the performance.
Here's a sample deck list from the top of my head:
Main deck (60)
17x Swamp
2x Dark Ritual (replaces B.storm)
8x Target
4x Entomb
4x Putrid Imp (replaces H.Researcher)
2x Raven's Crime (replaces C.Study)
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead
4x Mental Misstep
4x Unmask (replaces FoW)
3x Thoughtseize / Cabal Therapy / Duress (replaces Daze)
Total:
12 Creatures
10 Discard effects (6 of them recurring!) + 3T.seize + 4 Unmask
12 Reanimation effects
11 Protection spells
What the deck loses from the full money list (MD):
- Draw 2 effect from Careful Study (typically 4x)
- Draw 1 effect from Hapless Researcher (typically 3x)
- Draw 3 effect from Brainstorm (typically 2-4x)
- Counters: Force of Will and Daze (typically 4x + 2-4x)
- Putrid Imp can not block after threshold (compare to H.Researcher)
In short: resilience and digging power, which are especially relevant post-SB
What the deck loses from the full money list (SB):
- Bounce effects
- Show and Tell
= Any outs to resolved opposing Leyline of the Void
What the deck gains:
- Recurring discard effects (Putrid Imp, Raven's Crime)
- Speed for occasional T1 animation (Dark Ritual or Unmask yourself + Reanimate)
- Resistance to non-basic land hate
In short: speed, which is especially relevant G1
Potential MD target list:
3x Jin-G
1x Platinum Emperion
1x B.Archon
1x Iona
1x Trench Gorger
1x I.Leviathan
Potential SB target list:
1x Terastodon
1x Elesh Norn
1x E.Archangel
1x S. Leviathan
1x Sphinx
Potential sideboard #1 "opponents won't play Leyline of the Void":
5x Target
3x P.Needle
3x Discard effect
3x Bojuka Bog
1x Darkblast
Potential sideboard #2 (desperately transitional):
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Grindstone
4x Painter's Servant
1x Helm of Obedience
2x Diabolic Tutor
...or something to that effect.
EDIT: Based on some quick Apprentice goldfishing, the MD is potent. However, Jin will be very vulnerable most of the time, digging for SB cards is down to luck, and SB Leyline of the Void is auto-concede.
Last edited by Karhumies; 07-04-2011 at 05:04 PM.
Here's the recent decklist I went 4-0 on MTGO, and 9-0 at another tourney, the key differences over the standard reanimator lists are the inlcusion of Gitaxion probe and Cephalid Coliseum:
Gitaxion Probe: This card easily won me a lot of matches that would have otherwise been sketchy at best. Obviously, it cantrips, which improves the efficiency of your 16 land build, and can be pitched to FOW, but it really improves the vital decision making in the first turn, (what should I entomb for, does the opponent have swords, should i fetch for underground sea, or a basic? Should I combo out or wait for protection, should I play around daze...etc). Also, in my build, I run personal tutor SB with show and tell, so it allows you to personal tutor and draw the card in the same turn.
Cephalid Coliseum: I consistently had threshold by turn 3, it allowed me to cut the hapless researchers for this more powerful draw and discard. It really improves the midgame, and cancels out the opponents boarded in GY hate. So many game 2 and 3's when I knew the opponent was running crypt, or ROP, i didn't even board in pithing needle. They remove my gy, so what? I just activate cephalid coliseum, bin some new fatties and draw more reanimation.
Its also great against control decks and combo decks, where both of you quickly deplete your hands in counter wars, one activation can win you the game.
someguy604 (4-0)
Legacy Daily #2537021 on 07/03/2011
Main Deck
60 cards
2 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
16 lands
1 Blazing Archon
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
8 creatures
1 Animate Dead
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
3 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mental Misstep
4 Reanimate
36 other spells
Sideboard
1 Daze
3 Duress
1 Empyrial Archangel
2 Extirpate
2 Personal Tutor
2 Pithing Needle
1 Platinum Angel
2 Show and Tell
1 Turbulent Dreams
15 sideboard cards
Maybe I'm just not getting it, but how do you have threshold after they remove your gy?Originally Posted by Wess
When they remove your gy, it will usually slow you down 2-3 turns. Refilling your gy for threshold on cephalid coliseum usually takes that long. That is if you don't entomb or careful study what you need as well. Siding in hate for their hate also slows you down, while also diluting the power of your deck, Their hate slows them down and dilutes their deck, so, mostly, I just don't bother.
@ Monoblack Build
I like the list. The major problem you run with a monoblack build is lack of being able to protect your combo without losing speed. Sure you can reanimate turn one off of a dark rit, but you still need to be able to force your combo through. I think the list is viable, but the blue black build is superior due to the 3 "free" counters you can run.
@ Forum
Here is the last installment in my top three Garobidou list sample hand analysis. If you have questions, ask em!
Variant Three on the Draw
Game Turn Reanimated Quality Counter/Extra Reanimation Back Up Subsequent Reanimate
1 2 Jin/CS Daze/Reanimate Any Creature
2 3 Jin/HR MM/Reanimate/Exhume/Animate Dead Archon
3 2 Iona/CS FoW/FoW Any Creature
4 2 Jin/E FoW/FoW Any Creature
5 2 Archon/MD MM/Reanimate None
6 2 Jin/HR Daze/FoW None
7 2 Jin/E Daze/FoW/FoW/Reanimate/Reanimate Any Creature
8 2 Inkwell/HR Daze/Daze/MM/Animate Dead None
9 4 Jin/E MM/FoW/FoW Archon
10 2 Inkwell/HR Daze/Daze/FoW/Exhume/Animate Dead None
11 2 Jin/E Daze/FoW/FoW Any Creature
12 2 Jin/CS FoW Archon/Sphinx
13 2 Jin/E Daze Archon/Sphinx
14 2 Jin/HR Daze/FoW/Reanimate Any Creature
15 4 Jin/E FoW/FoW None
16 2 Jin/E MM/FoW/Reanimate Archon and Inkwell
17 3 Jin/CS FoW Sphinx
18 2 Jin/MD MM/Animate Dead Inkwell
19 2 Jin/E None Any Creature
20 2 Jin/E FoW/Reanimate/Reanimate Any Creature
21 2 Jin/HR MM/MM Sphinx/Inkwell
22 2 Jin/CS FoW Any Creature
23 2 Jin/CS FoW/Reanimate Any Creature
24 3 Jin/E Daze/MM/FoW None
25 2 Jin/E MM/Reanimate Sphinx
26 2 Jin/E MM/Reanimate Sphinx and Inkwell
27 2 Jin/HR MM/Reanimate Archon/Inkwell
28 2 Jin/E Daze/Reanimate Any Creature
29 2 Jin/HR MM/FoW Any Creature
30 6 Jin/HR Daze/MM/FoW Any Creature
31 3 Jin/E MM Any Creature
32 6 Jin/E MM/MM/MM/FoW/FoW Archon/Sphinx/Inkwell
33 2 Jin/E Daze/Exhume/Exhume/Exhume/Animate Dead Archon
34 4 Jin/CS MM/FoW/Reanimate Any Creature
35 3 Jin/MD MM/MM/Reanimate/Exhume Any Creature
36 2 Jin/HR FoW/Animate Dead/Animate Dead Any Creature
37 4 Jin/HR Daze/Animate Dead Any Creature
38 4 Jin/E MM None
39 2 Jin/E None Any Creature
40 2 Jin/CS Daze/Animate Dead/Exhume Any Creature
41 2 Jin/E Daze/Daze/Exhume Iona
42 2 Jin/CS Daze/MM/Exhume Sphinx
43 2 Jin/E FoW/FoW Any Creature
44 2 Jin/CS FoW/Exhume Any Creature
45 3 Jin/MD Animate Dead Sphinx
46 2 Jin/E MM/FoW/Reanimate Archon/Iona
47 5 Jin/HR Daze/MM/FoW/Reanimate/Exhume/Exhume Archon
48 2 Jin/HR MM/Daze/FoW/Reanimate/Animate Dead None
49 2 Jin/E MM Any Creature
50 2 Jin/E None Iona/Sphinx
So what I found in my testing.
Turn Reanimated: Number of Games
2:36
3:6
4:5
5:1
6:2
These values give us an average turn of reanimation of 2.54. When averaged with the stats for this build on the play we get 2.71. As for the final comparison, here are the stats:
Variant:Average Turn of Reanimation (Play and Draw Averaged)
1:2.59
2:2.61
3:2.71
These values show that, as Garobidou calculated, Variants 1-3 are in the correct order of quick reanimation consistency. Garobidou's model is probably more accurate than just running sample hands. I would also like to point out that each build was slightly quicker on the draw. That could be beneficial to know. I hope these posts have helped in some way. Enjoy.
Legacy
Grixis Delver
Vintage
Mono Mentor
Team Leovold
The best way to find out what deck is really best is to write a program that takes every possible hand, then plays it against every possible hand of another deck, deciding whether you win or lose the game with the optimal play.
This will give you the win rate against each deck. Then you can bring the build for the expected meta. You can also test the same way to determine the optimal sideboard plan against each deck. [/troll]
Funny fact: its not much trolling . There are computer programs for chess that do this. They analyze each player's actions and possible future choices in a cartain depth though. They ovbiously cannot calculate everything :P. The same algorythms can be used to calculate the best course of action in simpler games like tic tac toe etc.. So if you ever play mtg against a machine don't cry if you get beaten :P
@MirrorMask: bro, you forgot that this algorithms were made for games without any random factor. With some kind of randomness they lose their efectivity. Anyway program what RexFTW sugested could be helpful. But you with that "best" deck still require skills and luck. For me, i stay with reanimator. So much fun.[/OT]
hmm yeah your absolutely right. but maybe a "bit" altered? It will have to take into account a load of info though. Not possible atm i guess. Hell yeah! animator kicks ass!!! i ve been playing it for some time now and its just awesome! Its never boring to smash them with &^%@*%@ fatties
Played in another MTGO daily, again went 4-0...tweaked my original list a bit:
+2 ponder
+1 Daze
+1Watery grave
-2 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Island
-1 Reanimate
Also...It That Betrays SB is great against land decks with fetch for maze and karakas, completely destroys them.
someguy604 (4-0)
Legacy Daily #2562893 on 07/08/2011
Main Deck
60 cards
2 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
17 lands
1 Blazing Archon
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
7 creatures
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Force of Will
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mental Misstep
2 Ponder
4 Reanimate
36 other spells
Sideboard
3 Duress
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Extirpate
1 It That Betrays
2 Personal Tutor
3 Pithing Needle
1 Platinum Angel
2 Show and Tell
15 sideboard cards
Round 1: Not sure..he conceded on t2 Jin reanimation
Round 2: Glimpse/Artifact Combo
Game 1: Counter his stuff, reanimate Elesh for a lock
Game 2: With 12 draw spells and 4 tutors, I don't find anything for 4 turns :(
Game 3: Counter stuff, reanimate Elesh for the lock
Round 3: Hive Mind
In all my matches, I have yet to ever lose to Hive mind...almost an auto-win, we're faster, more consistent, and with more counters
Round 4: Burn
Game 1: Reanimate Iona Red
Game 2: Slow start, made the mistake of reanimating Jin....got run over by unearth creatures
Game 3: Smartened up and reanimated Sphinx ftw
As for SB plans....I hardly ever sideboard unless i really have to answer a threat or make a simple creature swap, I prefer not to dilute the explosiveness of the deck. I think for Hive mind...brought in platinum angel and 3 duress
I like the idea of It that Betrays. Though Inkwell would probably do the trick as well.
How are the 8 reanimate spells working out for you?
I've been playing with Probe and like it a lot, though I tried 4 originally, I've moved to 3 to prevent some awkward opening hands.
How do you feel about 2?
Gitaxian Probe is amazing when you have it in your opening hand, but not so good mid-late game, hence why I change it to a 2/2 split of ponder. Ponder is also better at hitting land drops, which is also why I went +1 land...almost every game I lost was due to mana-screw.
My opinion is that people are focusing way too much on the early game. My list has the same speed early game, however, it also has a much better mid-game due to the ponder + cephalid coliseum. Sometimes you have to mull to 6 or 5, and sometimes your hand gets blown out in a discard/counter war and you need to rebuild fast. Also, cephalid can't be countered with MM.
It That Betrays is better than Inkwell as with Inkwell, its always a race, and usually they will win. Whereas with the Eldrazi, they lose 3 permanents per turn (usually 2 lands + a creature blocking), and you get +2.
@ Wess
I have to disagree on a couple of things.
First, if probe is only good at opening hand, by reducing them to 2 you are reducing the chances of they appear in the first 7. So why play them? (I tested them last wednesdey, but they where never relevant. The only matchup where they could be, they didn't show up. I'll keep testing them until I see them in action in relevant matchups)
About focusing too much on the early game, I like to be as fast and consistent as possible. I don't want to have a mid game, but if I wanted I'd pretty much prefer playing with lim-dul's vault, because these can really put you back on track at any moment.
Also by playing less reduncance you'll get a lot more "speculative" hands, and I really hate those hands.
About the number of lands, I always played 16/17 (with some mana troubles) until I saw Garibodou's numbers. I'm running 18 now and loving it because it's a lot more consistent.
Now, cephalid coliseum and it that betrays are interesting cards. I'll give them a try next time, although coliseum will mess up the mana base a little.
About sideboarding what do you do against graveyard hate cards?
Keep posting your online results. I wish I had the possibilities to have the deck online too. :)
@Nastirth
The 2 Gitaxian probe used to be 4, to be honest, the main reason that I dropped down to 2 was because playing it in MTGO, I started knowing the best players decks just by their id, so, some of its novelty is lost. 2 may seem random, but that + ponder makes 8 cantrips, which makes my 17 land mana base stronger.
My SB strategy for gy hate is just to ignore it, I know that sounds crazy, but try it, their hate is rarely ever relevant....consider, you are going to roll them game 1. Game 2, they could have instant gy hate (extirpate, surgical) OR artifact hate, so, its really dumb boarding in needles, or echoing truth game 2. I just make sure to keep a hand with counters in it.
For game 3, if they have very heavy gy hate, that's where the personal tutor+show and tell comes in....though, in 3 tourno's I have never used it. I always feel their gy hate slows them down more than it slows me down.
I only ever bring in Pithing needle against Karakas+Maze decks, and stoneforge+Jace decks, decks where the needles are shutting off more than just gy hate.
I completely agree with having that as a sideboard template. To reiterate:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Null Rod
2 Echoing Truth
2 Show and Tell
3 forms of disruption/countermagic - Thoughtseize, Duress, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, Misdirection, or Dispel
3 reanimation targets - a way to deal with problem permanents, Elesh Norn, and a flex slot
1 flex slot
I don't think I have enough experience with the deck yet to write out a quality guide to sideboarding, but I do know enough to give out a few pointers. Here's the list I've been playing (it's the list that has the highest chance of reanimating something by turn three according to Garobidou's statistics while still having four copies of Brainstorm):
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Snow-covered Island
1 Snow-covered Swamp
4 Careful Study
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
2 Animate Dead
1 Hapless Researcher
3 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Blazing Archon
1 flex slot reanimation creature (I've been playing a second Sphinx, but I don't know if that's right)
4 Entomb
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Daze
Sideboard- same as the template, with Terastodon, Elesh Norn, and Iona as the creatures, Thoughtseize as the disruption, and a third Pithing Needle as the flex slot
After game one, I'll 99% of the time put in both copies of Show and Tell (which benefit from the eighteen lands) in place of two copies of Exhume and/or Animate Dead; it's usually Animate Dead, but against something like Merfolk, I'll take out two Exhume because Cursecatcher can't counter AD.
Against decks that utilize maindeck artifacts (like Ęther Vial, for example) that I suspect will bring in Relic or Crypt, I skip putting in Pithing Needle altogether and just put in both Null Rods, in place of a Hapless Researcher and the most useless reanimation target. I bring in Pithing Needle in those slots otherwise, especially against Knight of the Reliquary decks because of Karakas. If I suspect at all that the opponent will have Leyline of the Void, Echoing Truth goes in that slot.
Less useful targets get subbed for useful ones (Inkwell Leviathan out, Elesh Norn in vs. Elves, for example).
Game two I'll usually swap Dazes for Thoughtseizes, but that's not a given. Game three depends, but I've found myself usually leaving Seize in.
Find enlightenment for just $29.99!
For a short period of time I was running one It That Betrays. There are times when he can be amazing. However the fact that he can be targeted and killed by a lot of the removal (specifically StP and PtE) in the format makes him not so good. His benefit simply doesn't outweight his potential liabilities in my mind. Creatures like Iona and Jin if played early, most of the time will mean a blowout. Because of their high reward they are worth risking playing and protecting with counter magic. Hell, we have Inkwell (with Shroud), Blazing Archon, Sphinx, and more in the board that are untargetable by Karakas. Learn to see that shit coming and/or play around it.
These next few go out specifically to nastirth and Wess, but I guess if anyone else has an intelligent answer I will consider it.
Better Question: Why play them at all? This deck doesn't need a mana-free, life-costing cantrip. We are already using life as a resource. Sure you can see what they have but is that necessary? I think it seems gimmicky and lackluster at best.
Why would you want to reduce your speed with this deck. Most of the time if you can land a turn 2 or 3 dude you simply win the game. I know it isn't always that straight forward. However if you land an Iona or Jin later (during your so-called-midgame), you lose some of the potential benefit that either reanimation target could have granted to you. Even with your beaters, if they hit play later than turn 2-3 they should meet a higher resistance. This generally makes it harder to seize victory. I guess my overall point here would be, we should be aiming for swift consistency, not mid-game. You can feel free to disagree with me, but my build will win out since I will reanimated something faster. : )
This is absolutely true. In my playtesting of my original variant (with 4 Brainstorms) I would get way more hands with a BS or two over the builds the Garobidou had ran numbers on. These give you a false sense of security. I mean that you will think that you can dig to hit whatever you need. Well, frankly, that happened about 50% of the games I needed it too. So don't overvalue your draw engine cards. Sometime playing more combo pieces is better, go figure logic like that for a combo deck.
I have recently been retesting my original variant with the 4 brainstorms and 17 lands. There were dramatic differences on how often I had to mulligan and how often I got stuck on one land. I am sold on 18 lands for the moment.
If I come across as harsh... too bad. This is a combo deck and being fast and consistent is what we should be aiming for. Sure it should have some flexibility but consistent speed is key here. If you disagree, enjoy your middle of the pack rankings and your midgame.
Last edited by Sturtzilla; 07-12-2011 at 04:44 PM.
Legacy
Vintage
Exactly, the point of the deck is to reanimate a fatty as soon as possible (in a mindful fashion) and ride it to victory while the opponent is still developing their hand/board. If you let the game advance to turn four, a lot of the time turn three even, without having done anything, your chances of winning usually decrease by a significant margin. I'd never consider running Cephalid Coliseum (can't tap for black which is the base color of the deck, causes you to lose life which is quite significant) or Gitaxian Probe (doesn't do enough for the deck in the early turns, causes either life loss or tempo loss) for that reason.
I'm only a Verdant Catacombs, 1-2 Sphinx, 2 Exhumes, and 3 Thoughtseizes away from completing the deck! I'll definitely post some tourney reports once I have it finished, though my list will likely have -1 U. Sea for +1 Scalding Tarn, since I only have 3 Seas.
Find enlightenment for just $29.99!
I am glad to hear that you agree. I have been playing various versions of this deck for quite some time. One thing that I have learned is: the faster you get a dude on the table, the more likely it is that you will win. So again, quick consistency is what we should be trying to improve in this deck.
Sounds awesome! Good luck on finding the rest of the cards you are looking for (I have a Catacombs and a Sphinx that would love to have a loving player and a Reanimator deck to fit into; I just bought nearly the entire deck in foil... it looks awesome but might have been an unnecessary expense).
Honestly you can probably survive with 3 Seas as long as you run an extra fetch land. It is a rare case when you need more than 3 land. It is rare that you will see 4 Wastelands on your opponent's side as well. I have been play testing against Goblins (it is a friend's favorite deck), even with Ridishan Ports in play, usually hitting the third land is where the game turns to our favor. Furthermore, I did a small amount of testing with Darkslick Shores. It shows promising results; however, you can't fetch for it or return it to your hand to pay Daze's alternate casting cost. On the plus side, your opponent can't get islandwalk on you with it in play... take that you pesky Merfolks!
Legacy
Vintage
I believe build#1's mana base hasn't been addressed before, although initially it may look like
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
12 fetch
I would presume 8 fetch + 4 Gemstone Mine will be more appealing than say, 4 Darkslick Shores since this deck only plays business spells and almost no cantrips at all and lands are tapped on an average of 3~ per game. More than that means you are heading into mid-game (t4 onwards) and most likely not winning the match anyway. The mines doesn't make much of a difference with Darkslick Shores which is a dead land on turn 4.
Even 8 fetch + 4 Underground River may be a better option than Darkslick Shores if you don't want to stick with 12 fetchlands.
Although I personally wouldn't run less than 4 basics, just want to throw some ideas on what the ideal mana base *should* look like.
Well I think the thing that makes darkslick shores better is that oftentimes when its your first or second land, its essentially the same as an underground sea. The other options all cost you life, which isn't ideal when you often lose 10 to reanimate. As for gemstone mines, in my opinion, its strictly worse than darkslick shores in this deck. The highest mana cost in the deck is 2 anyways, so it comes into play tapped when you don't really need that mana immediately (only reason would be vs daze/cursecatcher i suppose). But when you have a hand with just gemstone mine as your first land, it will likely be gone before the second or third reanimate spell fires off.
As for using more basics, I've tried going 2 swamp/2 island, but it often just felt like i would end up w/ a basic when i needed a dual/fetch and so i either had to keep the hand hoping to draw into a black/blue source or mulligan.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
