@Jon Stewart
How well do Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker play together? It would seem like they have poor synergy.
Mystical Tutor vs Lim Dul's Vault AKA "LDV"
I did a little study to find out how much switching to LDV from Mystical would slow down the deck in game 1. I did 40 test draws and played each with Mystical and then the exact same hand (and cards drawn) with LDV in place of the mystical. The list used was LSV's list from SCG posted on a previous page.
The results were:
Mystical tutor
25/40 (62%) combo on turn 2
10/40 (25%) combo on turn 3
2/40 (5%) combo on turn 4
3/40 (8%) fail to combo before turn 5
Lim Dul's Vault
19/40 (47%) combo on turn 2
16/40 (40%) combo on turn 3
3/40 (7%) combo on turn 4
2/40 (5%) fail to combo before turn 5
You can see that the LDV list is slowed by one turn in many of the games where LDV has to be used to get a combo piece (about 20% of games). Also note that many of these slower games were able to be played with Exhume instead of reanimate, taking much less damage from LDV than Reanimate.
You will also see that LDV allowed me to combo before turn 5 with a poor mulligained hand when Mystical did not. (actually went off turn 3!)
LDV plays poorly with turn 1 Daze.
However, it does allow some luckey "Vault piles" like {careful study, reanimate, guy} or {exhume, guy, with study in hand} or {Brainstorm, entomb, reanimate}.
I think vault is also better at recovering if your hand is empty or almost empty after taking a faerie to face or similar.
Obviously you cannot run the 4 needle, 11 instant sideboard as well with LDV.
LDV is extra strong when you have brainstorm in hand or can put it on top!
Here is the raw data if anyone wants to do more math.
The first number is the number of turns to combo with mystical. If there is a second number, that is the number of turns to combo with the exact same hand and LDV instead of Mystical. * is a failure to combo before turn 5.
2 - 3
3 - 4
3
3
3
2
2 - 3
3
*
3
2 - 3
2
2
2
2
2 - 3
2
4
2
2
2
* - 3
2
2
4
3
2 - 3
3
2
3
2
2 - 3
2
2
2
2
3
2
2
*
These are goldfishing numbers though right? LDV makes you pay life, which significantly changes the math when you are facing down a team of Nacatl's and Goyfs. You ought to also include the amount of life you are paying each time you play LDV that way you can more accurately depict the viability of LDV as a replacement for Mystical Tutor.
Luck is a residue of design.
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Expect me or die. I play SI.
Has anyone considered a build with 3-4 maindeck Show and Tell and maybe a few more monsters?
I am testing 3 main SNT with 10 dudes and also trying out a version that runs Goyfs main(emidln had suggested something like this wether it was main or side cant remember).Both of the lists leave something to be desired, there are intervals where you can not recover or find the exact missing spell to chain.
@rex-They play pretty well together Team America and Eva Green has used that pair for years.
well I normally use LDV to set up turn 3 exhume instead of turn 2 reanimate so you pay much less life.
And yes, all goldfishing.
Alright, I've got two more events I can play misty in, and I want to make good use of her. I expect a lot of the meta will probably feel this way, so I figured reanimator was a better choice than ANT. What are some recommendations for a meta thats fairly heavy in control/reanimator/ant/zoo/lands? Careful studies or no? Sideboard is the area I'd probably need the most help with. Thanks for your help!
Yesterday night my first test after the MT ban with is first replacement performed by Lim Dul's Vault.
An extract from my previous list:
Creatures
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Blazing Archon
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Sphinx of Steel Wind
2x Iona, Shield of Emeria
Tutor, Cantrip and More
3x Mystycal Tutor
4x Careful Study
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
2x Thoughtseize
1x Show and Tell
1x Wipe Away
I already played just 3 MT for Ponder and a full playset of Careful Study so I've just replaced with 3 Lim's Dul Vault and changements are not so bad 'cuz cast with success Lim's Dul Vault means a five cards top deck like:
Brainstorm
Entomb or Exhume
Thoughtseize or Force of Will or 2nd Entomb or Exhume
Lim's Dul Vault or Other Cantrip
Garbage
that means:
- try to reanimate with multiple chances or without a loss of life
- check for the opponent's hand and look forward the turns restarting a new Lim's Dul Vault
Btw I'm quite sure that I need to move some cards from the previous list in order to increase Thoughtseize, I think new kind of play the deck in its control version means protect Lim's Dul Vault or combo and, on the base of opponent's hand, resolve it in the right way (specific target or no loss of life).
My idea is, as first to remove the MT targets:
OUT
- 1 Show and Tell
- 1 Wipe Away
- 1 inkwell Leviathan
IN
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Terastodon
+1 [Free Slot]
Second step is to optimize protections or cantrip shell and here I've not found yet the best choice to improve, I've just seen that:
- Ponder after a Lim Dul's Vault is a quite useless card but guarantee an establish version in T1 and T2
- 4 Careful Study are too much 'cuz I can't opt for a T1 Study and T2 MT for Reanimate
Some hypothesis...
CONTROL OPTIMIZATION
OUT
-1 Daze
-1 Careful Study
IN
+2 Spell Pierce
+1 Thougthseize [Free Slot]
so I could play the following list:
CREATURES
1x Terastodon
1x Sphinx of Steel Wind
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Blazing Archon
2x Iona, Shield of Emeria
REANIMATOR STUFF
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Entomb
DRAWERS, TUTORS AND CANTRIP
3x Lim Dul's Vault
3x Careful Study
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
PROTECTIONS
4x Force of Will
4x Thoughtseize
3x Daze
2x Spell Pierce
LANDS:17 with 8 fetch 4 basic lands and a single Bayou
CANTRIP OPTIMIZATION
OUT
-1 Careful Study
IN
+2 Best Cantrip or Tutors Avalible [1 is the Free Slot]
so I could play the following list:
CREATURES
1x Terastodon
1x Sphinx of Steel Wind
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Blazing Archon
2x Iona, Shield of Emeria
REANIMATOR STUFF
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Entomb
DRAWERS, TUTORS AND CANTRIP
3x Lim Dul's Vault
3x Careful Study
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
2x Strategic Plannic or Personal Tutor or Intuition or WHAT???
PROTECTIONS
4x Force of Will
3x Thoughtseize
4x Daze
LANDS: 17 with 8 fetch 4 basic lands and a single Bayou
What kind of cards do u fixed in this version?
It seems to me that IF we are going to be a little slower/less consistent then the deck needs to have a slighly longer term outlook. For that reason I like Comeback's control list.
The other option that comes to mind since there has already been toying around with is burning wish. You can leave a SnT a reanimate spell, and a seize/duress in the board along with having access to Firespout/Perish 1st. game. Second game you get REBs vs. blue
Burning wish is acceptable, but it's just as mana-greedy as lim-duls vault, but not an instant.
This will be relevant.
Another relevant thing is that burning wish CAN NOT grab entomb.
what's it with the terastodon, I still haven't found a situation in which another creature from the package couldn't win.
since I don't care enough for 18 power of creatures, without lands left on T3.
I also like comeback's list, but I think it needs a completely different tuning than cards like spell pierce.
We will have to face more aggro than before, and G1, spell pierce is definately the worst card around for maindecking it.
I'd rather play +2 ponder
strategic planning only works with lim-duls vault.
it's a terrible card for reanimate otherwise, if you want to up that ammount play either intuition ( which is incredibly strong, but 3 mana) or preordain ( new cantrip from M11)
Do you think that DRAWERS, TUTORS AND CANTRIP section is ok or with 6 cc1 protection a re-definition that allow to play quite surely a Personal Tutor in T2 has to be put in place?
DRAWERS, TUTORS AND CANTRIP
3x Lim Dul's Vault
3x Careful Study or 1x Careful Study and 2x Strategic Plannig?
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder or Personal Tutor?
Is it correct to read Strategic Plannig like both Ponder and Careful Study?
Last edited by comeback; 06-23-2010 at 10:43 AM.
While burning wish does cost 2 and is off color it is NOT card disadvantage, nor does it cost life, and it provides access to your singelton bomb sb options.
I guess the question becomes who are we trying to go faster than Tendrils decks...? We are realistically racing CB but my prediction is that we will see other less consistent combo decks, ZOO, lands, and slow board control. I think the aggro-control decks who don't have very good matchups vs. zoo, lands, or board control are going to get pushed out for a while.
EDIT: Strategic Planning only affects the cards you look at. You can't discard what you want like with Study.
Rex and Control, those were good posts, I would definately opt for Intution over both Strategic Planning and Personal Tutor, but have you guys considered going beyond simply testing Lim Dul's Vault.
What about using the freed up slots to actually make the deck less defensive and more aggressive and consistent?
Something along these lines...
Spells:
4x Daze
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead
4x Entomb
4x Thoughtseize
4x Careful Study
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
Creatures
4x Iona
2x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Blazing Archon
Lands:
4x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Swamp
1x Island
There, 12 Reanimates, 12 Creatures (Counting Entomb), 12 Discard Outlets (Counting Entomb & Thoughtseize), 8 Disruption Spells AND 11 Cantrips . That should make the deck pretty damn consistent if nothing else.
This version of the deck is actually really powerful. Rex, I would love to see your goldwish turn results for the above list.
I think they will be unconditionally be superior to your Vault goldfish turns and probably, superior to Mystical Tutor goldfish turns as well.
Yeah, I think Ponder is superior to Breakthrough. But still, I don't want people to misinterpret how Breakthrough would be used in the deck. Yes, you can use it as early as turn 2 or turn 3 to reanimate something asap. But that's something you would only do agianst a combo matchup, or if you are desperate. Most of the time, you shuffle away Breakthrough with Brainstorm in the early game, and use it in the midgame, once you are down to three cards in your hand or less (it happens pretty often, this deck eats through cards in hand rapidly). By turn 3-4 when you only have 2-3 cards in hand, maybe a creature, nothing useful, that's when you use breakthrough to get the creature into the yard and also draw yourself a reanimate effect or two to cast it that turn or the next turn.It's more useful than it sounds, because with this deck, really, the only cards that you want to/need to keep it hand are reanimate effects. Everything else you can pitch with impunity. As a result, once you are down to 3 cards in hand, Breakthrough functions as a Careful Study on steriods.
Ill do it next time I have the time.
Yes. Please do.
I look forward to seeing the official combo turn, or goldfish turn with the list I just posted. It seems to be blazing fast.
Also, don't forget. When on the play, if you have both a reanimate and a creature in hand, but no discard/entomb effect. Most of time, it's best to pass the turn and just discard the creature during your discard step, and Reanimate it next turn.
Thanks so much.
A lot of people around the intarwebs seem to think that this will require a major overhaul to the deck. I don't think so. I understand that LDV and Personal Tutor or Intuition aren't piecewise replacements for MT, but I think the vast majority of the shell will remain the same. I think that the deck is still remarkably powerful and with small tweaks is still very consistent.
I've been playing around a bit with a couple ponder and a couple LDV (I don't think it could be a four of) and a few extra ponder. The more games I play the more sure I am that the deck might not be as powerful as it used to be, but that it is still firmly a tier 1 deck. Especially if everyone lets their guard down.
As far as tweaks to the shell, I'm considering increasing my threat density either by going up to 7 or 8 reanimation targets or adding tombstalkers. I think extra big killers will make thoughtseize and careful study more consistent.
I agree that while we may have less selection over which fatty we bring out, with a little more protection, just about any one will do.
Perhaps the biggest question is what cards are valuable enough to stock the sideboard with now that the singleton sideboard will no longer cut it. What cards are useful enough against enough strategies that we can commit space to them? I know that the metagame is going to shift so it is too early for specifics configurations, but I'd like to hear what you guys think.
~Karr.
No, this deck isn't going away at all. Entomb was/is the major issue, not MT. Jon Stewart's list looks fucking terrifying. If that sort of hyper-aggressive build can still goldfish turn 2 most of the time, the DCI looks pretty dumb for failing to nerf a deck that is ultimately a much larger threat than ANT could ever pretend to be.
Everyone brace yourselfs, this does not happen much on the internets!
I totally agree with every point made here. I think this is the direction that this thread should take.
To your sideboard point:
I think the following should be included:
4x pithing needle
1x Dryad arbor
1x Thoughtsieze
1x Realm Razer
4x Graveyard Disruption
4x Bounce/Enchant Destruction
I think the grave disruption should be either leylines or extirpates.
I think the Bounce/Enchant destruction should be a mix of echoing truth, reverent silence or natures claim.
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