[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

[colo]

I’ve been tooling around with the mono U list, and I just have to say that Fathom Seer is insane.

I have experience running Fathom Seer in Legacy (back from the UW Tempo days; check http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Deck-UW-Tempo if it doesn't ring a bell), but I can't really see its allure without either equipment to make it beat for a substantial amount, or to synergize with other stuff that wants your land-count to be low (like Weathered Wayfarer). Can you tell me more about what made it so impressive in your testing?

[Fox]

I have experience running Fathom Seer in Legacy (back from the UW Tempo days; check http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Deck-UW-Tempo if it doesn't ring a bell), but I can't really see its allure without either equipment to make it beat for a substantial amount, or to synergize with other stuff that wants your land-count to be low (like Weathered Wayfarer). Can you tell me more about what made it so impressive in your testing?

Mishra‘s Workshop for face-down: Scroll of Fate. The deck you referenced was a creature-feature deck (or a Blade deck, near the end of thread), we‘re much closer to a spells-matter, combo deck. Those lands a Seer would return to hand are coming back as EoT PW-killin‘ 2/2s.

Dreadnought is the anathema of dude decks and zero-strategy tap-out-and-jam value ETB nonsense. We are a mixture of:
-Standstill
-Elves who don‘t need an untap step, Stasis who would deny the untap step, and we who would exploit the controlled absence of an untap step. It should not be surprising that Elves also has a strategy of turning their dudes into Dreadnoughts for a single turn
-pseudo-Delver ~ combo control: UB Reanimator, Infect, Shadow
-UB Tezz and MUD who are the prisons, and we are the prison breaker

With the exception of prison vs prison breaker, any of the above matchups is basically a mirror match.

[Mr. Safety]

If I can get the cards in time, this is what I'll be piloting at my local October 26th 1K:

4x Vantress Gargoyle
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Vision Charm
3x Dismember
1x Torpor Orb
1x Spell Snare
1x Spell Pierce
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
7x Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
3x Winter Orb
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Sower of Temptation
2x Echoing Truth
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Vendilion Clique


Sideboard is a little loose, but serviceable. My local metagame never matches the overall meta. One of the more difficult matchups, at least that I've experienced, for Stifle-Nought is Miracles. Vision Charm can be used in response to the Terminus miracle trigger. Gargoyle seems very good, and has been noted Scroll is the nuts.

[Fox]

Don‘t cast Vision Charm until they resolve a Terminus trigger, pay the and put it on the stack @Mr. Safety

[Mr. Safety]

Don‘t cast Vision Charm until they resolve a Terminus trigger, pay the and put it on the stack @Mr. Safety

I was thinking of milling them for 4 not phasing my dude. Milling them for 4 mills Terminus into their graveyard in {EDIT} if I suspect they have it on top. Phasing is the better option if I only have one creature because my creature will phase back in.

EDIT: Vision Charm is a surprisingly complicated card against miracle triggers. I clarified my statement a bit.

[filln]

I was thinking of milling them for 4 not phasing my dude. Milling them for 4 mills Terminus into their graveyard in response to the trigger. I think there are 2 interactions possible here, lol. I think yours is the better option with only one creature because my creature will phase back in, but if I have more than one creature out then milling them for 4 seems better.

If you wait for the miracle trigger then the card is already in their hand so milling will be largely ineffective. I've found that Scroll of Fate has helped the Miracles matchup if it sticks. A steady stream of 2/2's can be hard for them to deal with.

[crispymelee]

If you wait for the miracle trigger then the card is already in their hand so milling will be largely ineffective. I've found that Scroll of Fate has helped the Miracles matchup if it sticks. A steady stream of 2/2's can be hard for them to deal with.

Piggybacking off the "army of 2/2s" idea, it's worth mentioning that answers such as Echoing Truth or Maelstrom Pulse will only remove 1 manifested card at a time; as they have "no name", they don't share names with any other permanents and therefore can't be removed en masse with "same name as other permanents" removal. Just a little fun aside.

[Mr. Safety]

If you wait for the miracle trigger then the card is already in their hand so milling will be largely ineffective. I've found that Scroll of Fate has helped the Miracles matchup if it sticks. A steady stream of 2/2's can be hard for them to deal with.

I was thinking I would likely be able to 'smell' a Terminus coming, but I worded it wrong. Doing it in response to the trigger only works for phasing my artifact out, if I want to mill them I would have to do it in response to their Brainstorm (likely scenario during my turn) or the upkeep on the following turn after they cast a Ponder.

I got my situations mixed a little, thanks for the clarification.

Is Fathom Seer better than Standstill with Scroll of Fate? It seems bonkers by turning extra Islands on the battlefield into 2/2's in the mid-late game.

[PirateKing]

Supply question: Where are you all getting your Scroll of Fate(s) from?
Local stores don't have any and online stores stock them 1 at a time before they're back to sold out.

[Mr. Safety]

Supply question: Where are you all getting your Scroll of Fate(s) from?
Local stores don't have any and online stores stock them 1 at a time before they're back to sold out.

I was only able to nab 2 of them from Troll&Toad, looks like they are out of stock again. :(

[H]

Supply question: Where are you all getting your Scroll of Fate(s) from?
Local stores don't have any and online stores stock them 1 at a time before they're back to sold out.

TCGPlayer has several sellers with 4+ copies. I got my 3 "extra" copies off TCGPlayer on release day.

[Fox]

I buy from Card Kingdom b/c they keep legacy 1ks alive on west coast.

[Rood]

I think the Brazen Borrower should be replacing all bounce going forward. Its a dual threat and just as good against most matchups. I like your list Safety good luck.

Because this has come up...if you guys are concerned with control (Grixis, Miracles) Dispel is an extremely good sideboard option. Counters Fow, Brainstorm, Swords, Push, Kolagan’s Command, Bolt, Edict etc. i also love Misdirection effects. Pierce just isnt reliable at stopping control because they can always pay for a swords or push.

[Mr. Safety]

I nabbed everything, looks like i'm slinging dreadnoughts in October.

Is Academy Ruins something i should jam in there? All my threats are artifacts now, so it makes sense. Not sure where to cut, likely the Pierce/Snare. I could also cut a Daze, but not sure.

[Fox]

I can't imagine a Stronghold land is ever going to perform better than Noxious Revival (offensive mode = counter Reanimate + time walk). Like maybe you can make some argument if you have zero ways to recur Noxious, but even then I think Noxious is still better. Past that, you'd also have to get to the point of saying that a card that requires 3 lands to activate is better than a Karn, which actually puts a card in hand (to include a Dreadnought in exile). On some level you're also competing with Hieroglyphic Illumination + Mystic Sanctuary or Bone Harvest (which was printed at in this new set)...I think I'd also have to be convinced as to why we're playing Stronghold over Drafna's Restoration (which I would guess has been reprinted at some point as a -colored Argivian Find).

[Tobitzki]

4x Vantress Gargoyle
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Vision Charm
3x Dismember
1x Torpor Orb
1x Spell Snare
1x Spell Pierce
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
7x Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
3x Winter Orb
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Sower of Temptation
2x Echoing Truth
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Vendilion Clique

list looks solid, couple nitpicks: I'd add a 19th, possibly even a 20th, land, probably over the 3rd Dismember and the MD T Orb. Without Delvers the threat curve looks 8x2cmc (incl. 4x PhD+Stifle/Charm) plus 4x3cmc. A while back I was defending my 18 land count against the same argument put forth by @Fox and pointed out that we're the rare tempo deck that taps Wastelands for mana while being WL-proof ourselves. But your curve w/o 1drop threats is considerably higher.

Enter Academy Ruins: I hear the argument on Noxious Revival (especially in a Delver build), but the cost of including Ruins here is practically nonexistent: It's serviceable (i.e. untapped) mana with an uncounterable mid-late-game tutor attached. (bonus jank play: Vision-mill yourself to dig for a threat or SB artifact.) The only downside really is giving opps a WL target. In my draft I added Ghost Quarter as my 20th land (& 5th WL), which depending on your meta (RUG & Depth much?) could be v strong I think.

The inclusion of AR would also be a fun way of turning a couple of Counterbalances out of the side into a silly/pseudo Countertop softlock in some games.

Final comment, @Mr Safety: All this artifact overload really calls for at least 1-2 Misdirection effects out of the board, no?

Good luck!

[Rood]

I updated the primer to include the newest UW and UR builds. I was going to make a new thread all together...but I think i'll slowly update this one for you guys. (Used mine and Fox's lists). I might post a mono blue list as well tough to tell which is optimal yet.

If we can give a clear consensus as to which build is optimal I will post it.

[Mr. Safety]

list looks solid, couple nitpicks: I'd add a 19th, possibly even a 20th, land, probably over the 3rd Dismember and the MD T Orb. Without Delvers the threat curve looks 8x2cmc (incl. 4x PhD+Stifle/Charm) plus 4x3cmc. A while back I was defending my 18 land count against the same argument put forth by @Fox and pointed out that we're the rare tempo deck that taps Wastelands for mana while being WL-proof ourselves. But your curve w/o 1drop threats is considerably higher.

Enter Academy Ruins: I hear the argument on Noxious Revival (especially in a Delver build), but the cost of including Ruins here is practically nonexistent: It's serviceable (i.e. untapped) mana with an uncounterable mid-late-game tutor attached. (bonus jank play: Vision-mill yourself to dig for a threat or SB artifact.) The only downside really is giving opps a WL target. In my draft I added Ghost Quarter as my 20th land (& 5th WL), which depending on your meta (RUG & Depth much?) could be v strong I think.

The inclusion of AR would also be a fun way of turning a couple of Counterbalances out of the side into a silly/pseudo Countertop softlock in some games.

Final comment, @Mr Safety: All this artifact overload really calls for at least 1-2 Misdirection effects out of the board, no?

Good luck!

Good thoughts, thanks. I will do this:
-1 Torpor Orb
+1 Academy Ruins

For the sideboard:
-1 Tormod's Crypt
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Winter Orb
+2 Misdirection
+1 Torpor Orb

I like Misdirection against mid-range decks like Maverick/Jund and Grixis/4C Control, basically anything that looks to sling 2-for-1's like Hymn to Tourach and KCommand. I also like the Academy Ruins over Torpor Orb maindeck, with the Torpor Orb in the board. It's got a ton of value against Death and Taxes, a popular local choice.

I updated the primer to include the newest UW and UR builds. I was going to make a new thread all together...but I think i'll slowly update this one for you guys. (Used mine and Fox's lists). I might post a mono blue list as well tough to tell which is optimal yet.

If we can give a clear consensus as to which build is optimal I will post it.

I'll get a report up after the 10/26 local 1K. I was really intriqued with the suggestion you made of a threat suite of 4x Dread/Gargoyle/Scroll along with 4x Vision Charm. My gut tells me 4x Vision Charm is too many, but I don't know right now. I might cut 1 for a singleton Vapor Snag (very good against a few specific decks, most notably Dark Depths and Death's Shadow.)

[Rood]

Good thoughts, thanks. I will do this:
-1 Torpor Orb
+1 Academy Ruins

For the sideboard:
-1 Tormod's Crypt
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Winter Orb
+2 Misdirection
+1 Torpor Orb

I like Misdirection against mid-range decks like Maverick/Jund and Grixis/4C Control, basically anything that looks to sling 2-for-1's like Hymn to Tourach and KCommand. I also like the Academy Ruins over Torpor Orb maindeck, with the Torpor Orb in the board. It's got a ton of value against Death and Taxes, a popular local choice.

Where's the Brazen Borrowers at? I feel like the card is so good as a sideboard option for us.

[Mr. Safety]

Where's the Brazen Borrowers at? I feel like the card is so good as a sideboard option for us.

I'm having a hard time acquiring them. As far as Eldraine goes, Gargoyles were cheap and available, but I haven't been able to snag the BB's yet. If I get them they will replace the ETruths in the sideboard.