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Thread: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

  1. #4361
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Yeah, I'm going to seriously give Brazen a hard look at. Being able to bounce a 20/20 is pretty relevant.
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

  2. #4362

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Wipe Away hasn’t been played in a number of years; mostly a High Tide and DTT OmniTell wish target. Brazen Borrower is more correct.
    With wipe is for sejiri, 1 brazen 1 wipe away is still the correct way in my opinion

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by davide View Post
    With wipe is for sejiri, 1 brazen 1 wipe away is still the correct way in my opinion
    I've playtested a ton against Turbo Depths (and I've played the deck myself a ton, it's one of my favorite decks) and the main way for them getting Sejiri Steppe to protect Marit lage is Crop Rotation. With so few spells that count in the matchup, this is definitely the one you counter. If they play Steppe main phase to get Marit Lage past a Delver blocker you play Petty Theft in response. Also, you can Stifle the Steppe trigger or just stifle Hexmage/Stage to buy a turn or more. Wipe Away isn't a worthwhile card anymore, it's just too narrow. EDIT: I meant to say it's too narrow, where Borrower has applications across several matchups.
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 01-27-2020 at 03:25 PM.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by davide View Post
    With wipe is for sejiri, 1 brazen 1 wipe away is still the correct way in my opinion
    It costs 3 mana, and two of that has a color requirement (we play Wasteland and Factory). When you play Stifle and Brazen, you can let your opponent go all-in with Crop Rot (losing a real land, and losing access to re-upping the combo) for the same + and then turn that bounce spell into a blocker or clock, all while being immune to Duress. With Brazen, you're also able to contest a 20/20 on just 2 lands, needing only one blue mana (important in a Daze deck).

    In a worst case scenario that you're thinking of, Wipe Away might be the only card that can help...but you actively want your opponent to be sinking more resources into failing to protect a Lage on a routine basis. The only 3 mana card I'd really want to use against Lage is Teferi, because it crushes them (and is proactive).

    It's fine to have personal preferences, but Brazen is showing up in decks [across the format] that are winning on a regular basis. They are playing it due to the maindeck playability of an anti-Depths card. They are finding success against Depths, most without also having Stifle. To call Wipe Away more correct than Borrower, the rest of the format should be backing that up.

    Here's Wipe Away since Jan.1 2019:
    70 SB appearances.
    8x Storm
    1x Tezz
    1x Stax
    1x UB Reanimator
    59x SnT decks

    I will grant you that UB Reanimator is very close to the same thing as Dreadnought, and that Tezz-MUD-Dreadnought are in their own prison vs prison-breaker subformat. Let's note how incredibly unlikely any of these 70 decks are to use Borrower with Wipe Away, as they don't *really* use creature combat. Brazen wasn't a card in January, but it doesn't change that Wipe Away isn't really a Dreadnought card, and we aren't the only deck in legacy that could use Brazen + Wipe Away (if it were a correct thing to be doing).

    Edit: 59 SnT, 1x Stax

  5. #4365
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Id much rather have Echoing Truth for TES. Brazen is great cuz its a kill factor too

    I think wipe is a very narrow option. I even like Snap more
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Another grind session against a friend on UW Miracles. Ran both my UR list and my UW list, regular Bo3 each time. Some observations:
    - Brazen Borrower main feels like a must if not on UW; life feels much harder vs a CB or JtMS that sticks, and I imagine there's other permanents that we hate too (EBridge, cheated in fatties)
    - 6x "free" counters that are also sources of card disadvantage is a lot; I liked FoN as a 1x a lot more, since exiling something like a CJ so it couldn't be snapped back was nice.
    - Locking away their graveyard is a must; between AK, Predict, SCM, and Mystic Sanct., that part of the field was not an insignificant resource to them (thanks Fox)
    - I'm unsure what to do with FoWs G2 and 3 in this matchup. More generally, how do you guys approach boarding out "free" counterspells? It was nice to be able to jam Scroll/Teferi/Karn behind Force, but the 1-for-2s really felt like they added up vs all their cantrips, esp. when the games went long.

    I recall colo running 4x CB in his mono-U list, and next i practice UR, I'll experiment with it. I'd probably go something like:
    - 4 Standstill
    - 4 Daze
    + 4 Ponder
    + 4 Counterbalance

    If I go that route, makes me feel like I'd want JtMS > Karn, but we'll see. Also will be looking to try Isochron Scepter as part of the karnboard, likely in UW more than UR.

    Dreadstill

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I never board FOW out vs decks playing Oko. Generally on red splash 3-4 REBs come in and 1-2 Brazens. On white splash maybe Mystical Disputes take that slot. Cards pure gas in that MU
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    10 people showed up today for 4 rounds. Decks in the room were Elves!, Eldrazi Stompy (aggro), UR OmniTell, UG SnowOko OmniTell, Ug Stasis, TurboDepths, Grixis Delver, Storm (pretty sure, but definitely don't remember if ANT or TES), DETH, and manifest destiny.

    Round 1 vs UR OmniTell (2-0): game 1 he gets locked out by Teferi and a hand with enough countermagic. Game 2 he gets Stifled out of game.

    Round 2 vs Eldrazi (2-1): I win the die roll, but ~1 white card short of stabilizing. Game 2 an early Dreadnought gets there. Game 3 Torpor Orb and 2x Dreadnoughts get there. Was able to dodge the Blast Zones in the last games.

    Round 3 vs UG SnowOko OmniTell (2-0): game 1 has a slower opening into Scroll, play Dreadnought face-down. In response to attack and flip, opponent casts Cunning Wish and I respond with Brainstorm, they go on top of stack with Veil, and they will eventually get Force of Vigor (exile Veil #2). While Dreadnought and Scroll go down, I still get to make a 2/2, and that clock is enough to win. Game 2 they have an Ice-Fang, I follow up with JVP, and they untap and Oko [+1] my guy. This is the beginning of the end for them, as my Elk vindicates their blocker and is followed up by Scroll of Fate. Oko ends up falling 2 turns later (Teferi bounce Food-Elk) to 2x 2/2s and Factory. They use their last turn to Cunning Wish for Through the Breach at 19 life, and I put Dreadnought in face-down. Topdeck Factory, swing for 19.

    Round 4 vs TurboDepths (2-0): game 1 a few Teferi's and an Azcanta vindicate too many Decays from their hand and they die to a Dreadnought, unable to ever go for it vs Wastelands and Stifles in hand. Game 2 they're on a mull to 5 and have to burn too many resources finding new lands (ESG exile, cast Once Upon a Time) vs double Wasteland; over a few turns they die to Mastery of the Unseen putting 4 power on board before they could burn a Petal to Decay Mastery.

    On the UG stuff, round 3 pretty well demonstrates why playing Oko without a 3rd color's removal really doesn't work, as you can't really deal with the 3/3 you give an opponent. It's rough though b/c the moment you add a 3rd color, you immediately stop everything you were thinking of doing, and change directly into 4c SnowOko. Staying on 2c is where Uro is the card that kinda has to be looked at, but he only works well with Dreadnought ideas. I still think UG is too weak (being forced to rely on Ice-Fangs), but it's probably not that far off playable.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Nice work! There are alot of S&T lately. How many scrolls were u on?
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Rood View Post
    Nice work! There are alot of S&T lately. How many scrolls were u on?
    1x main, 1x SB....but I have 2x E Tutor and 2x Karn, so 6.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    @Rood. Killing it lately! you got a big shout out by the LaL guys this week, too. Funny how folks only start recognizing once MTGO results come in. I'm excited to get back on Dreadstill myself after tinkering around with some janky Phoenix brews. (unfortunately too much RiP & Leyline for that atm)

    So can I pick your brain about a couple of things? In particular: Where and when do you board out some number of Standstills, if ever? I'd be guessing against Delver & Vial decks, at least on the draw? And how do you approach & feel about our Delver MUs in general; BUG looks to be the toughest, followed by Grixis, then UR, but even that does not look super favorable, or is it? (I always thought that vs. tempo my old UB Ponder/Thoughtseize build had a slight advantage over classic Dreadstill). Any advice on common play patterns here?

    @Fox. Happy to hear your take, too, as an old UR vet. And keep up the good work!

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    @Tobitzki
    Looking at Rood's list on pg.1 for a few matchups, here's what I'd be doing:
    -DnT: cut 6 cards for 2x EE, 2x Dismember, 2x Abrade. Cuts to include 3x Standstill, 3x Snare/Daze (could also get behind a -4/-2 split).
    -Lands: cut 5 cards for 2x EE, 3x Surgical. Cuts to include 3x Standstill, 2x Daze.
    -Depths: cut 4 cards for 2x Abrade, 2x EE. Cuts to include 2x Bolt, 2x Standstill.
    -Delver: cut 7 cards for 2x Dismember, 2x EE, 3x REB (could add Abrade too, but seems unnecessary). Cuts to include 2x Dreadnought, 2x Scroll, 1x Standstill, 1x FoW, 1x Snare (depending on their build). Good amount of flexibility on this one, but I'd generally be keep Standstill closer to 3x postboard. Kill their dudes, force them to give you 3 cards is too much for them.
    -Post: cut 6 cards for 2x EE, 2x Abrade (Golos/Map/Chalice), 2x Surgical. Cuts to include 4x Bolt, 2x Standstill. There's a lot of bad cards here, like I kinda want to cut all the Snares too, and Daze isn't amazing either, so maybe 1x Snare out for Surgical #3. Honestly, maybe even Agent of Treachery comes in. Need to be especially careful with Factory deployment sequence vs any deck with Stage.

    Not a huge amount of playstyle similarities between UB and UR; the UB builds rely on Dreadnought surviving, while UR will hold Dreadnought in hand longer and be more likely to use it to discard removal away from Delver or Factory. There's a lot more "going for it" with UB, but the printing of Scroll really takes a lot of the risk out. One of the bigger differences is that UB has to be more proactive, but also can't refill its hand. While Ponder is a good card, it's not like there is any mystery behind what you're digging for when Scroll is out and you can't grow hand by >1 card per turn (exception here for Daze returning land). Both builds require perfect recognition of Daze/Wasteland vs Fetch scenarios.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    thanks @Fox, this is super helpful. In all of these MUs I'd feel inclined to take out 1 or 2 extra copies of Standstill otd--or am I too focused on starting hands and the first few turns?

    You're generally not wrong about UR vs. UB. But I think you underestimate what an absolute house Thoughtseize was pretty much since the DRS/Probe bans and until the printing of Veil. Especially during the W6 meta, Swords, Push and Decay were at a very manageable level. RUG had very few outs to a resolved 12/12 (and even the 4C-greed builds had a hard time finding one of their 2 Decays while on a 2T clock). Not that much risk involved if you Peek & discard their removal before hardcasting the 12/12. But yea, I've always considered that deck's plan to be turbo-Tempo with Dreadnoughts acting as some kind of Goyf on steriods. Now it's probably unplayable at least until Veil is gone.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Seize is fine, it's just that you can't really play it with Confidant. The only real CA engine it pairs with is Griselbrand, pulling double duty as Entomb targeting opponent -> play their deck.

    On opening hands in UR, you're doing something fundamentally more powerful than most decks so you shouldn't be feeling the need to have amazing opening hands nor try to mulligan to a 'great' six. You also have to let the Factories do their thing with Standstill's support, since they're not really a movable part of your mana base. Undercutting them adds in a good deal more variance to each draw step. Just keep all your cards comboing towards counting to 20 while managing interaction decisions; they all work together towards this goal in the setting of Standstill.

    Edit: Confidant also has some lifeloss issues being played alongside Scroll as well.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Seize is fine, it's just that you can't really play it with Confidant.
    Never did play Bobs (first availability then due to W6) & kept the black splash to a minimum. I think we've been through this on this thread, but I tried several things in those 2-drop/Bob-slots: Pre-Scroll it was TNN, I tried Lazav, then liked JVP for a long time, then took up 1 or 2 Brazen Boys, even considered the Gargoyle or just adding a Preordain. It's a tricky spot in the deck, but tbh I don't think it matters too much what you go for, a couple of Bobs would be fine now, too. The perfect information Thoughtseize gives you makes it that you don't really care about balancing out the inherent Dreadnought card disadvantage: usually we just don't care about 80% of their cards and ideally they'll be dead before they draw into one of their answers. In fact, there's a whole list of decks that simply can't handle a Dreadnought at all pre-board (e.g. Eldrazi, UR Delver, combo). But so if this is indeed riskier than UR's flexible control/tempo plan, in the meantime the Delver/Daze/Wasteland plan here (plan A2 rather than plan B) runs a lot more efficiently thanks to Ponder, the full 4 WLs, and 28+ Delver flips. What I'm trying to say is that it never seemed to me on par in degree of difficulty compared with UR's shapeshifting roleplay. It's tempo. Get the info. Go for it. Make them live & die by their topdecks. If they kill the 12/12, drop TNN or Scroll. It's much more linear than Dreadstill.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post

    On opening hands in UR, you're doing something fundamentally more powerful than most decks so you shouldn't be feeling the need to have amazing opening hands nor try to mulligan to a 'great' six. You also have to let the Factories do their thing with Standstill's support, since they're not really a movable part of your mana base. Undercutting them adds in a good deal more variance to each draw step. Just keep all your cards comboing towards counting to 20 while managing interaction decisions; they all work together towards this goal in the setting of Standstill.
    This is great advice, much appreciated.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    @Rood. Killing it lately! you got a big shout out by the LaL guys this week, too. Funny how folks only start recognizing once MTGO results come in. I'm excited to get back on Dreadstill myself after tinkering around with some janky Phoenix brews. (unfortunately too much RiP & Leyline for that atm)

    So can I pick your brain about a couple of things? In particular: Where and when do you board out some number of Standstills, if ever? I'd be guessing against Delver & Vial decks, at least on the draw? And how do you approach & feel about our Delver MUs in general; BUG looks to be the toughest, followed by Grixis, then UR, but even that does not look super favorable, or is it? (I always thought that vs. tempo my old UB Ponder/Thoughtseize build had a slight advantage over classic Dreadstill). Any advice on common play patterns here?

    @Fox. Happy to hear your take, too, as an old UR vet. And keep up the good work!
    Thanks. I have 5 5-0 Trophies the past cpl weeks, 4th place on MTGO w dreadstill. Generally SS i never board out more then 1 unless against Depths Lands or Dredge. I often board out Bolts, Stifles, 1 scroll, sometimes 1 Dreadnought. Ive been fluctuating between 4 Snares and 4 Pierce I will say against Loam and stoneblade snare has been amazing. I think the real boost this deck gains over other delver decks is the ability to thrash snow control. Standstill and Scroll are such beatings for them.

    UB is alot better vs delver and gY decks. UR is alot better vs the majority of the field tho.
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Also BUG delver, grixis, UGR, UR are delver MUs difficulty w bug being the hardest. Dismember is a key card here and if you expect alot of delver Snare > Pierce. Snare helps ALOT vs taxes which is a relatively hard MU
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I think I like 2 Pierces 1 Snare 1 FoN for now.

    And here's another question, regarding the mana base: How often does it become an issue that we're on 2 Volcs only? Beyond the 4 Bolts, there are critical red SB cards that we want against WL decks (Abrades for D&T and Delver, 1-2 Red Blasts for Delver, too). I remember reading back here how you (I think @Rood) came to the 4/3 split between Factories and Wastelands and that was all v convincing. But what about a 3/3 Island-Volc split or else a Fiery Islet as 3rd red source?

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Rood's list is overwhelmingly blue, and you have Daze/Stifle to protect those Volcs; but yes, the change to defense-predominant Stifle gameplay is a turns-long prioritization change. You have to be smart with Fetch decisions against Delver and DnT, but you should generally be okay. A 3/3 split is fine [if you own 3x Volc], but I wouldn't run Islet. Even if all your red mana is denied, you still have Scroll to repurpose them as 2/2s. Leading with nonbasics is a great way to lose in any Dreadnought deck, and you definitely pick up win % when your first land is basic Island (#4) instead of Volc (#3) auto-loss. If we're really splitting hairs on 3/3 vs 4/2 split, I think 3/3 goes with Pierce (anti-combo skew) while 4/2 goes with Snare (anti-Goyf). Remember that 3+ color decks are usually trying to scum wins off of Oko, so using Wasteland like that against a Daze deck is a lot harder when we lead basic Island -> Snare your Goyf -> I dare you to Waste my second land (Volc). A BUG Delver deck would much prefer a turn 1 play, Waste our first land Volc (no lands on board) and then try for Goyf into Oko, without losing a land drop in-between. The lost land drop between Oko and Goyf ends up playing a lot harder into Snare and Daze topdecking windows.

    If you move towards cards like Lavamancer or Chandra ToD, you start working in basic Mountain. There's also something to be said for Noxious Revival as a 1x maindeck choice which adds quite a bit of finesse play, and can easily cover 2x Volcs; that said, Noxious is best played in the 4th Factory slot.

    Just a random aside on SB ideas:
    If you're looking for something like Painful Truths, there is something to be said for Tragic Lesson and Mystic Sanctuary. Probably better in Factory builds, but UB could use this engine to power up a Scroll down the stretch.

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