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Thread: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

  1. #4281
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Scouring over the EW decklists. Some things of note as I scrolled through:
    -pretty good amount of Painters, Food Chains, Enchantress, Pox, and Gaak
    -a lot of RG lands, Moon Stompy, Bomberman, and Dredge
    -at least 2 decks with Ill-Gotten Gains (both Painters iirc); that's just good, clean livin'

    In terms of Dreadnought:
    -one severely underpowered mono-U list with 2x Renegade Doppelganger and no Scrolls. Other creature was Delver (and Dreadnought ofc). Pretty sure this was a direct netdeck from ewlandon's 5-0.
    -Didn't really scrutinize SBs too much, but that's all the Dreads I saw - maybe one of the many RUG Delver decks had one sitting in there.

    Team Tundra stacked the box real hard and only got 6 slots of the top 70. These decks clearly were not stopping RUG's Wrenn/Oko, and probably ultimately boosting RUG's performance to no small degree. It's somewhat humorous watching the whole "CB is bad right now" when that's the only card in their deck that has ever mattered. The Hogaak decks likely ran into profound trouble with Oko Elk'ifying their 8/8s. Reanimator apparently got massacred (Dredge as well, but much lower in overall number); their spell-based yard combo brethren [ANT] blew them out of the water. Honestly not surprised to see DnT finding good matchups near the RUG-shaped apex, and having a fairly strong showing.

    In terms of general trends, the Karn decks were playing super hard into enemy Karns. Probably a lot of completely variance-based self-kills in these mirror matches, but likely predictable that the Karn stompy deck with the best attacks [Mentor] seemed to do the best. Lots of weird Teferi [mis]use going on. Most of the UW guys figured out the whole "play this card with Astrolabe" trick, but Teferi is clearly not addressing the problems they are having (especially against Oko). Rather humorously, lots of combo decks were throwing in some Teferi (Infect, OmniTell, UW Helmerator, and like every Food Chain deck)...and it kinda seems egregious - like what are you bouncing to generate velocity [when opponent's don't have a worthwhile target]? I'm sure it's fine for them, but it's kind of being used like a 3 mana discard spell vs enemy countermagic. I don't recall seeing a single deck using him correctly [with manlands].

    I wish I could have made it out there; RUG is a pretty boring coin flip to play against, but most of the rest of that meta seems pretty reasonable for us.

  2. #4282
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    2:2 last night at the weekly with UB Stiflenought.

    Ran a single Gurmag over Scroll #4, which felt great every time I saw it. Otherwise not a lot of new information on flex slots; list felt decent as usual.

    0:2 vs Painter. Very cool, intricate and tight games here. I still like this MU a lot, but sometimes they just draw into that final piece they need. I made some sideboarding mistakes, thinking they had Chalice for some reason, and also shaved a Stifle, which has so many good targets here. But it wasn't what lost me G2.

    0:2 vs UB Vantress Delver. I just put this deck together myself and almost tried it out last night. The kind of Delver deck we don't want to see: basic lands, stack interaction, discard and removal that actually hits DN. Got overwhelmed both times; the Gargoyle is just gas in the Delver mirror: first stonewalling Aberrations, later Goyfing you in the air. I actually think this is a very reasonable meta deck right now (for the same reasons that DS is decently positioned and why I feel good about my own list)

    2:0 vs BUG Stiflenought (4 Bobs, 4 Goyfs, 4 Decays/Trophies; no Scrolls or Wasteland). My draws consistently lined up well here. At some point I opted to Stifle his only fetch with DN in hand after Pondering into Gurmag and guaranteed-to-flip Delver. We had a good conversation about the Noughty business afterwards, where I sold him hard on Scrolls & WLs. If W6 gets the ban hammer though, there won't be a good excuse not to play Bobs in UB anymore. I could also see a light G splash for just SB Decay and Veil of Summer. Might have to get a couple extra duals, eventually...

    2:0 vs BUG Hogaak. G1 otd: T1 Delver into T2 DN, GG. G2 he mulls to 4, bummer.

    I'll hold on to the 1 remaining copy of JVP for now, but it is on notice. (it's super flexible as a Scrollable pseudo cantrip, pseudo removal/life gain, pseudo discard, but it's just so fucking meh at 2cmc and I usually board it out, so it might eventually have to move for another Brazen B, the 4th Scroll or just an actual cantrip.)

  3. #4283
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    0:2 vs UB Vantress Delver. I just put this deck together myself and almost tried it out last night. The kind of Delver deck we don't want to see: basic lands, stack interaction, discard and removal that actually hits DN. Got overwhelmed both times; the Gargoyle is just gas in the Delver mirror: first stonewalling Aberrations, later Goyfing you in the air. I actually think this is a very reasonable meta deck right now (for the same reasons that DS is decently positioned and why I feel good about my own list)
    How crazy would it be to run a UB dreadnought list that runs Vantress instead of delver. Main deck hedron crab & surgical?

  4. #4284

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Vantress in a UB Dread shell is working fine. Just add some more discard effect (i.e. Tourach), Tought Scour (esp great vs Miracle), keep the counter package, eventually let go of the Standstill... And you are off to some fun. :)
    Most people actually do not know how to interact with Vantress, especially the "condition" for it to block. Making it a virtually bigger threat than it actually is.

  5. #4285
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Vantress has a lot of conditions, and the card doesn't work all that well with Dreadnought tech. You can put it in face-down to ignore the attack/block clause one time, and it's a Vision Charm target. Outside of that it has a symmetrical mill ability, mostly against CB...but I guess there is a world where you can win by mill. Not sure how this creature is ever blocking between Dreadnought, FoW, and Scroll downward-regulating hand size; but even if you could, enemy Goyf is going to be at least a 5/6 by turn 3-4 quite reliably against you. You can do the whole Thought Scour reverse-engine stuff, but that's pretty high variance against Gurmag/Mandrils, Goyf, Cabal Rit, Snapcaster, Brainstorm in response, yard combo, etc... There's not a great reason to ever Scour yourself blindly, certainly not in a way that advances a Dreadnought plan.

    If you want to play mill, you can't really play Dreadnought with it - there's not enough slots. Vantress also runs into some issues with Ashiok being about the best PW mill could ask for, since every [-1] exiles their yard. At that point you have to look at a stack of Gargoyle vs half as many slots of Dead of Winter/Toxic Deluge (you just wish these up with Scheming Symmetry) and choose the one that is the most likely to win a game (it's going to be the wrath that doesn't have a downside for you rather than the creature most opponents' have maindeck removal for).

    There's a pretty significant need for plans to come together with a Dreadnought-advancing purpose. Random milling (that isn't going to win a game) plus a 5/4 maybe-Goyf in the air isn't a coherent enough strategy to create windows of opportunity for Dreadnought. Forget threats for a moment, you don't even have blockers until turn 2, and you still need 3 mana to play the one card that might bail you out (Scroll). Everything being done is a bit too sluggish for legacy, and that's assuming you hit your first 3 land-drops. Let's also take a moment to watch the trajectory of a game when you have to play lands (shrinking hand) with a payoff that kinda needs you to be staying at 4+ cards in hand.

    @Rocco111 I would say that too much variance already exists between Gargoyle and Dreadnought timing windows. I don't think Gargoyle is good in Shadow, but we can at least see this [high variance] idea of Shadow's trajectory towards hellbent topdecking + being unable to block with Gargoyle = bigger DS topdecks. Shifting back to Dreadnought...You really can't afford to play Hymn on top of this; the card has nothing to do with how Dreadnoughts get put into play. You are going to get behind on board, and you're gonna lose b/c every not-Dreadnought-making card is not only going to fail to fix the board/preserve life total, such cards will also strand Dreadnoughts in hand (costing you draw steps/turns you don't have). What you're suggesting is playing pretty slow offense with zero defense. Your deck idea would not reliably force opponents to interact so much as forcing you to interact with ineffective tools.

  6. #4286
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocco111 View Post
    Vantress in a UB Dread shell is working fine. Just add some more discard effect (i.e. Tourach), Tought Scour (esp great vs Miracle), keep the counter package, eventually let go of the Standstill... And you are off to some fun. :)
    Most people actually do not know how to interact with Vantress, especially the "condition" for it to block. Making it a virtually bigger threat than it actually is.
    I have been trying to make Vantress Gargoyle work, and it works fine when paired with Ponder instead of Standstill (which I think you agree with based on this statement.) However...counting on your opponents to be 'bad' isn't a winning strategy. Bad players don't make cards playable. Also, without Standstill keeping your hand full, how are you going to block? Most cantrip-cartel decks don't have a fistful of cards once you hit the mid-game, maybe 2-3 max. So even if you 'bluff' blocking when you can't, you can't cheat. It can't block and you're going to lose to better threats. If at the same time you can't attack (no threshold) now you are really boned. I'm not saying Vantress Gargoyle is unplayable, but I don't think Dreadstill is the deck for it. This deck pivots from control to agro with specific interactions, of which Gargoyle adds an unnecessary (read: risky) level of complexity.

    EDIT: I just read Fox's post directly above, and I agree with it. Gargoyle doesn't allow you to take advantage of gamestate opportunities unless the stars align perfectly; that means it's probably not optimal.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Play some round robin games since we only had 4 decks in house. Room was Stryfo Pile, Meathooks, Elves, and manifest destiny. All three die rolls lost.

    Round 1 vs Elves (1-2): Game 1 I StP their turn 1 mana elf; their next turn they miss on land and have to GSZ for Arbor. My hand here is Factory + Standstill, Plow and maybe a Stifle (I was on a mull to 5), so I choose to Plow the Arbor and go for Standstill on the next turn to better undo the mull to 5. Their next play is Magus of the Crop Rot that turns into a 3/4 conditionally, so I can't really Standstill any more. The game goes on another 6 or so turns (getting hit by small dudes) and I think I had around 20 topdecks that would have let me Standstill and stabilize, but I just draw lands and counterspells. Game 2 gets to a point where Teferi allows an instant speed Verdict, and they don't recover before Karn starts killing lands. Game 3 is a weird game where I chose lines of play to around stopping Cradle from hardcasting a big guy from hand, but it turns out they're on the NO plan. I could have held up CP on their turn, but it didn't seem like it was going to fix the board so I diverted mana into a Karn/Crucible + recur Wasteland plan. I didn't sit there and do the math and Wasteland Arbor into a Quirion, which would have bought a turn [maybe], but they had a pretty full hand and I don't think Karn was going to have time to do his thing; the second Wasteland activation was a punt though. I think the 2-turn plan prioritizing Karn was probably better than delaying for a Priest into vast amounts of mana. All 3 games were close and fun, lots of decision points.

    Round 2 vs Stryfo Pile (1-0): Loooong game 1, I think they had 6 turns of Dack vs 2 failed attempts to steal Scroll...8+ turns of JTMS bstorms...a second Dack that stole Scroll into a Teferi bounce [on Scroll] into you lose Dack to Factory under the almighty Teferi...about 4 turns of Oko...and a Wrenn that got up to 7 loyalty. So to illustrate their board at the end: JTMS on [5], Oko on [9], and Wrenn on [7]. I guess this is supposed to be scary, but Azcanta activations into exile your P-Fire with FoN turned every attack into lose cards, or else. With opponent on 1 life, I cast StP on Engineer [naming Assembly Worker], attacked with 2x Elk [Crucible and Dreadnought] + 3x Factory, and uh yeah, you just kill the player. Difficult to understand all the fuss about Wrenn/Oko when you have games like these.

    Round 3 vs Meathooks (1-2): Game 1 they fall to a turn 2 Nought, but they did learn that flanking does not work on blocks (except vs flanking). Game 2 is one of those draw all 4 Dreadnought in a row games, which is pretty humorous. Game 3 was quite close as they paid 8 to dodge a Verdict with few lands and no Vial; they were 1 life from dying to 2/2 manifest + Factory animate + Karn animating Scroll. The flying got them there though, a turn before they would have died about 2x over. Regardless of this deck being quite rare, there's no excuse for not knowing Harmonic Sliver is a 3x in their board - this is one of those reasons you still play Torpor Orb. I enjoy running across decks like this, because you come in being able to name ~55 cards of their maindeck and at least 10 of their sideboard with high fidelity if you play enough legacy.

    Reducing opponents' strategies to knowable, and thus predictable (no matter how rare), entities is a key skill in Dreadnought, and this UW build is just a blast to play. It's just lines upon lines of truly horrifying effects for opposing decks slog through, and at the end of it all you still get to bash with 12/12s. These were some fun matchups today. It's unfortunate that this environment has to come at the cost of RUG Delver nonsense, but everything else going on in this meta is just delightful to play against.
    Last edited by Fox; 11-16-2019 at 11:28 PM.

  8. #4288
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Bob is playable again, I'm super excited to start playing my UB Death-Nought list.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Bob is playable again, I'm super excited to start playing my UB Death-Nought list.
    Thank god...w6 is oppressive.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by KobeBryan View Post
    Thank god...w6 is oppressive.
    Naw, he was just more dumb than anything. Have to remember that RUG Delver is a dead deck in that they can only change by getting strict upgrades. There was a sequence of banning DRS into printing 3 upgrades directly into their deck and 2 toolbox upgrades [Wrenn/Hexdrinker/Oko and Cindervines/Borrower respectively]. Oppressive for a time, sure - but completely unable to change whilst everything else is power crept up around them as they look on helplessly. I mean just unbanning DRS would have reduced their whole deck back to irrelevance.

    We did not care about what W&6 was doing to the meta over in Dreadnoughtland, outside of Dark Confidant. They just let DnT and Mother of Runes back in to the format, and that means you need to be able to deal with Revoker through that. This is not a great change for us in terms of demands on deck construction. While DnT is merely an annoyance, you need to understand that you're about to get Hymn'd to oblivion - if you build for that too, you're going to have zero space to deal with CB. This is every legacy decks' problem again.

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